Important soul jazz recordings

[JSngry]

I know we're not doing vocal albums, and that "important" is the the eye of the beholder, but...based on sales, the widely divergent places I've seen and heard the album, and that one of the co-leaders was not signed to the label at the time but would be (and make the list once so placed), and the fact that it's not strictly a vocal album, just let me make mention of the Nancy Wilson/Cannonball side.

It probably manages to elude all criteria for the list, but still..."Save Your Love For Me" was on jukeboxes in certain bars up until those bars ceased to exist. Maybe that song can get an asterisked inclusion as an Important Soul Jazz Single?

Or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ98YTcX7OM

Mention made, I'm happy.

[danasgoodstuff]

Joni is Wheatfield Soul, to borrow a phrase from the pride of Winnipeg.

"Playing jazz "soulfully" (e.g., Junior Mance on the Dexter album) does not automatically indicate a "Soul Jazz" labeling."

And this is exactly what's wrong with genre centered analysis...

You're not wrong there, but unless you do that it's hard to get a historical perspective. Also, if you say, "well, jazz is just this big mess of stuff that's been played for a hundred years or so and there's not much difference between King Oliver and Willis Jackson, so let's just think of them all together," then it's fairly undeniable that the focus is going to be on the relatively few geniuses among those guys and people are going to pay little attention to the people who may have played a key role for a time in keeping jazz a real career prospect for black youth. And if young black kids don't think of jazz as real music that they can use to pay rent with (and pull birds with), then the whole music dies/is dying/has died.

MG

I remain somewhat curious as to the origins of the term "Soul Jazz". I've raised the subject with MG before (in a BFT discussion, iirc), and he suggested that it started (the term, not the style) around the mid-50's. I believe Bob Porter may have written something to this effect. At any rate, I can't recall the first time I encountered the term (can anyone else here?). MG has certainly helped to keep it in my consciousness around here, but I can't recall where or when I may have seen it in liner notes, for example. I'm equally vague on when "Acid Jazz" became a widely used term, and who started it.

As far as Acid Jazz is concerned, that was a term started in England in the early eighties. I guess the magazine 'Blues & Soul' may have been where it originated, or maybe it was someone down on a dancefloor.

MG

Thanks for the thoughtful response - of course you're right that music of any sort doesn't happen in an economic or social or political vacumn as some sort of pure abstract thing. i guess it's just a matter of where you choose to focus your attention. If I were to focus a little better on this discussion, I might say that there are at least two overlapping but distinct streams of influence - musician on musician v. musician-public-musician, etc. Some figures loom larger in one than the other. And, to be fair, the latter stream isn't all about commerce, it's about self-image too. But it's still more interesting to me to hear King Oliver as funk, despite or maybe even because nobody else hears it that way that I know of.

[Jim R]

Sure you don't think of 'A day in the life' as soul jazz?

MG

MG, are you serious? I'm sure plenty of black people dug that album, but doesn't your definition suggest that these "Soul Jazz" recordings were intended as entertainment for black adults in particular? "A Day In The Life"? The one with strings, and songs like "Eleanor Rigby", the title track, and "Watch What Happens"?

I'm still not on board re "Crusaders 1". If that was intended for black adults, something went drastically wrong somewhere. I saw the Crusaders a few times. Blacks were in the minority at all of the shows I saw, and the crowds were quite youthful. I had friends who owned that and other Crusaders LP's, and none were black (didn't have much choice in that, but hey, we can't always control our environment). None of us were quite to the point of being referred to as "adults" at the time, either. I realize that this is a small sample size. ("Sample" size!? Okay, that was just a stroke of accidental genius ).

[JSngry]

[Dan Gould]

I still can't

Love this list and the discussion it spurred. MG, I am a little surprised by the complete absence of any early Horace Silver. I realize that ultimately HS was more "hard bop" than "soul jazz", but I get the sense that tunes like "The Preacher" and "Doodlin' " helped guide the evolution of the style.

I thought about Horace a long time before deciding no. Not because he was more a hard bop player than a soul jazz man - because I think he's both at the same time - but because I'm really not sure that the line of influence leads through him.

In December 1953, Ray Charles recorded 'Don't cha know', which was a small hit in '54, and the first of Ray's hits in his 'new' style, quickly followed up by stuff like 'I got a woman', and the rest is history, as they say. When you listen to that first hit, you can hear the same horn voicing that Horace used for Messrs Mobley & Dorham, in '54. So, did Horace get it from Ray? Well, possibly, possibly not.

But soul jazz follows (and leads) black popular music. Most of the artists who've made big changes in black pop music were soul jazz musicians - honking saxes (Illinois), gospel concepts (Ray), funk (JB), Smooth soul (George Benson). Another way of looking at soul jazz is that it was the jazz thread of black pop music (or R&B) during a period when jazz was an important element of R&B. So, if you try to think on the sources of inspiration for the soul jazz musicians who followed on, the influence that was THERE and HUGE was Ray's, and Horace was by comparison a minor detail.

I just can't wrap my head around the idea of something by Horace Silver not belonging on this list. Furthermore we're talking about soul jazz. While Ray Charles may be "beyond category" if we really try we can see that blues/R&B/gospel were his first influences and jazz - as easily as he fit into that genre - comes after those. Did not Riverside or Prestige put out a compilation of covers of Silver tunes by their artists? Did not Shirley Scott make an album of Silver compositions? Horace a "minor detail" is beyond laughable, IMO.

Finally I also have to question the absence of any Messengers albums, particularly those with Bobby Timmons in the piano chair.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

OK, Dan - this wasn't intended to be rationed and I'm not actually boss of the list (except no one else can edit the first post ).

I still think Ray had the greater influence and was into jazz way before he started recording. You'll recollect on that Montreux album with Dizzy, he was rabbiting on about how he'd loved 'Salt peanuts' since he was six or seven (impossible - he was a teenager when it came out) and always wanted to play it - bullshit? Some, of course, because he was older, not a little tot. But still truth, because it was there all around him.

Bearing in mind also what Danasgoodstuff pointed out about musician-musician influences, I think it's probably fine to put a few of Horace's alums in there. What do we think of 'Horace Silver & the Jazz Messengers' and 'Serenade to a soul sister'? Also, you're right about Blakey/Timmons, so would we go for 'Moanin'' or 'The big beat'? Or both? They both introduced great soul jazz standards.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Sure you don't think of 'A day in the life' as soul jazz?

MG

MG, are you serious? I'm sure plenty of black people dug that album, but doesn't your definition suggest that these "Soul Jazz" recordings were intended as entertainment for black adults in particular? "A Day In The Life"? The one with strings, and songs like "Eleanor Rigby", the title track, and "Watch What Happens"?

I'm still not on board re "Crusaders 1". If that was intended for black adults, something went drastically wrong somewhere. I saw the Crusaders a few times. Blacks were in the minority at all of the shows I saw, and the crowds were quite youthful. I had friends who owned that and other Crusaders LP's, and none were black (didn't have much choice in that, but hey, we can't always control our environment). None of us were quite to the point of being referred to as "adults" at the time, either. I realize that this is a small sample size. ("Sample" size!? Okay, that was just a stroke of accidental genius ).

Well, charts can help

'A day in the life' made #2 in the R&B chart, #13 in the pop chart. It was on the pop chart for a few weeks longer than the R&B chart so it's a sure bet that lots more white people bought it than black people. But it's also a sure bet that a hell of a lot of black people did buy it. It was definitely not consigned to the cutout bins in black neighbourhoods.

Similarly, 'Crusaders #1' was big in the R&B charts - #29 R&B, #96 pop. Again, probably more white customers than black, but there's a hell of a lot more white people in America.

These (and other soul jazz albums) are crossover records - and crossover seems to go only one way in America.

I do wish Joe would make an album of that title, with a looming photo of him on the cover taken from around knee height

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

But it's still more interesting to me to hear King Oliver as funk, despite or maybe even because nobody else hears it that way that I know of.

Well, if I'd said Louis Armstrong instead of King Oliver, would that have been any the more true? One of the great revelations of my life a good few years ago, was how funky some of the Hot Fives' cuts were. And when I got the Armstrong Decca Mosaic, I was surprised to hear him play lines that John Patton played. OK, that's not ALL that's going on, but that's not ALL that was going on with Gator, either. There is a truth there that it's all one music.

MG