Gil Evans tune question (i.d.) "C Blues" aka "Blues In C" aka "Blues Inc. Medley"

[l p]

Gil Evans "C Blues"  from the album 'Golden Hair' 1987

the theme played at 3:41 - 4:08 into the tune. what is the name of this theme?

 

 

i'm also curious about the title "John's Memory" played as part of  "Blues In C" on the Live at Sweet Basil album (1984), if anyone has info on that.

 

 

 

[Larry Kart]

Charlie Parker's "Anthropology"

 

[Jim R]

4 hours ago, l p said:

Gil Evans "C Blues"  from the album 'Golden Hair' 1987

the theme played at 3:41 - 4:08 into the tune. what is the name of this theme?

 

 

 

"Cheryl".

[BillF]

6 hours ago, Jim R said:

"Cheryl".

"Cheryl" (Parker) begins at 4:08.

[l p]

http://gilevans.free.fr/compo_us/ecran_compo.htm

840827  Live at Sweet Basil Vol.1
Blues in C (suite including "John's Memory" "Cheryl" "Bird Feathers" "Relaxin at Camarillo") 

871126 Golden Hair
C Blues (suite including "Cheryl" "Bird Feathers" "Relaxin at Camarillo")  

both suites above have:
title 1, title 2 (the theme in question 3:41 - 4:08), "Cheryl", "Bongo Beep", "Relaxin at Camarillo"

(bird feathers is an old dial title for bongo beep, but these are two different tunes)

i haven't heard the one below, but i suspect that it's the same suite with the title misprinted on the album (Blues Inc. = Blues In c.)
780225 At the Royal Festival Hall
Blues Inc. Medley (suite including "Cheryl" "Birdhead" [="Bird Feathers"] "Relaxin at Camarillo") 

 

[Larry Kart]

12 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

Charlie Parker's "Anthropology"

 

Sorry. It is "Cheryl." For my sin I've been banished for a week to a room full of Eddy Duchin recordings.

[mjzee]

"Cheryl" is what begins at 4:08.  OP wanted to know about the theme played 3:41 to 4:08.  It isn't "Cheryl."

[JSngry]

I don't know that it's a theme proper, but it might be the bass line to "Stratusphunk"?

[Jim R]

 Ah, I guess I may have made an erroneous assumption about what l p was asking (thought he may have posted the wrong timing).  I don't hear 3:41 to 4:08 so much as a "theme", just a bass line (which continues into "Cheryl").  I can join Larry and Eddie Duchin.  

Edited February 23, 2016 by Jim R

[JSngry]

"John's Memory" seems like a head chart, basically, somebody's riff, somebody's changes, take it and run with it.

My understanding of that band was that it was never the same twice, that parts could be as "optional" as they needed to be, so, like Basie (maybe the title is a nod to "John's Idea"?), Gil might have just started with the changes and it grew from there.

[l p]

it doesn't sound exactly like Stratusphunk.

on the sweet basil youtube link above, the tune starts at 38:12, and the 'mystery theme' starts at 42:07.

i guess what i'm most interested in is - if the section from 38:12 to 42:07 has been recorded under another title, and if the mystery theme that starts at 42:07 has been recorded under another title (these may very well be two parts of the same composition). and why isn't "John's Memory" listed on the other two issued versions.

it sounds like the 'mystery theme' is the transition theme used between these sections: theme 1,  "Cheryl" "Bird Feathers" "Relaxin at Camarillo".

i have 3 other live versions of this suite, and two of the versions are without the opening theme (theme 1). they both start with the mystery theme and go into cheryl, etc.

i guess the likely thing seems to be this: after 780225 At the Royal Festival Hall (assuming that it has the 2 opening themes), gil gave the name "John's Memory" to these 2 opening themes.

 

[JSngry]

No, it's not exactly "Stratuspunk" (the bass line)...but close to it...like an evolved combination of that and "Blues In Orbit".

Past that, though, I don't here a "theme", just a bass line, which, yeah, that could be considered a theme, sure. But it,s not really a theme as much as it is a bass line on changes, blues changes that instead of going to a G in the ninth bar go to Ab for two beats, then to G for two more, and then turn around bar to the top. On the earlier posted version,

 

[medjuck]

4 hours ago, l p said:

it doesn't sound exactly like Stratusphunk.

on the sweet basil youtube link above, the tune starts at 38:12, and the 'mystery theme' starts at 42:07.

i guess what i'm most interested in is - if the section from 38:12 to 42:07 has been recorded under another title, and if the mystery theme that starts at 42:07 has been recorded under another title (these may very well be two parts of the same composition). and why isn't "John's Memory" listed on the other two issued versions.

it sounds like the 'mystery theme' is the transition theme used between these sections: theme 1,  "Cheryl" "Bird Feathers" "Relaxin at Camarillo".

i have 3 other live versions of this suite, and two of the versions are without the opening theme (theme 1). they both start with the mystery theme and go into cheryl, etc.

i guess the likely thing seems to be this: after 780225 At the Royal Festival Hall (assuming that it has the 2 opening themes), gil gave the name "John's Memory" to these 2 opening themes.

 

I managed to make a "complete at the Royal Festival Hall" by combining the RCA release with the Mole Records Lp.  In the liner notes to the latter they give the running order of the concert and I managed to digitize the two Lps and put the numbers in the correct order. 

[JohnS]

Not that it adds anything to this conversation but I was at the RFH concert.  

[l p]

7 hours ago, medjuck said:

I managed to make a "complete at the Royal Festival Hall" by combining the RCA release with the Mole Records Lp.  In the liner notes to the latter they give the running order of the concert and I managed to digitize the two Lps and put the numbers in the correct order. 

 

on the Royal Festival Hall version, does "Blues Inc. Medley" have the two themes before "Cheryl"? (as in the very first post, youtube 'golden hair' album). theme 1 from 0:00-3:40, theme 2 from 3:41 - 4:08.

[JSngry]

Ok, found it, thought it sounded familiar, On that early 70s LP of previously unissued Gil Verve stuff, the lead cut is mistitled "Blues In Orbit". It's actually a quartet (trombone/rhythm) take on "Cheryl". After they play the head, the trombone starts playing the bass line that prefaces the head in later versions. This quartet cut (said by gil to have been a "sketch", not an actual for-release performance) was issued "in error" on this LP has has never been out since.

Here's where you'll find it:

[medjuck]

9 hours ago, JohnS said:

Not that it adds anything to this conversation but I was at the RFH concert.  

Wow! I'm jealous.

[mjzee]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Ok, found it, thought it sounded familiar, On that early 70s LP of previously unissued Gil Verve stuff, the lead cut is mistitled "Blues In Orbit". It's actually a quartet (trombone/rhythm) take on "Cheryl". After they play the head, the trombone starts playing the bass line that prefaces the head in later versions. This quartet cut (said by gil to have been a "sketch", not an actual for-release performance) was issued "in error" on this LP has has never been out since.

Here's where you'll find it:

Good sleuthing, Jim.  I've never even seen this LP.  Was it part of a series?  I know Verve released a Stan Getz/Bill Evans session with a similar cover.

[medjuck]

3 hours ago, l p said:

 

on the Royal Festival Hall version, does "Blues Inc. Medley" have the two themes before "Cheryl"? (as in the very first post, youtube 'golden hair' album). theme 1 from 0:00-3:40, theme 2 from 3:41 - 4:08.

No. At  the RFH  they go from John Lewis' "Concord" right into Cheryl at about 1:58.  

[JSngry]

37 minutes ago, mjzee said:

Good sleuthing, Jim.  I've never even seen this LP.  Was it part of a series?  I know Verve released a Stan Getz/Bill Evans session with a similar cover.

Verve had been all but dormant for a few years, so it seemed like a large/significant series at the time, although nothing in comparison to the 2-Fer series they would soon get on with. By today's standards, not large at all. If I'm remembering right, it came out in two batches over the space of a year, year-and-a-half, something like that. Or maybe just one batch.

https://www.discogs.com/label/370558-Previously-Unreleased-Recordings

Oh, also on that LP was/is another quartet cut labeled as a Gil original called "Isabel" which was later identified as Al Cohn's "Ah, Moore". That one has also been deemed a mistake and banished from further issue.

Neither are really "significant" recordings, their function as sketch/rehearsal tapes is obvious, but they do exist, and, as in this case, if ever you want to trace the chronology/evolution of anything, it's nice to at least know about them.

[medjuck]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Verve had been all but dormant for a few years, so it seemed like a large/significant series at the time, although nothing in comparison to the 2-Fer series they would soon get on with. By today's standards, not large at all. If I'm remembering right, it came out in two batches over the space of a year, year-and-a-half, something like that. Or maybe just one batch.

https://www.discogs.com/label/370558-Previously-Unreleased-Recordings

Oh, also on that LP was/is another quartet cut labeled as a Gil original called "Isabel" which was later identified as Al Cohn's "Ah, Moore". That one has also been deemed a mistake and banished from further issue.

Neither are really "significant" recordings, their function as sketch/rehearsal tapes is obvious, but they do exist, and, as in this case, if ever you want to trace the chronology/evolution of anything, it's nice to at least know about them.

And IIRC the rest of the Lp ended up on the CD version of The Individualism of Gil Evans.  When I read how pissed he was about the release of the 2 quartet tracks I felt guilty for owning the "Previously Unreleased" Lp.  

[JSngry]

Correct about the rest of the lp, plus the CD added a few things extra that maybe should have made that LP instead of those sketch recordings.

But I can't say that "guilty" was anything I felt while listening to Wayne on "Barracudas" all those years!

[l p]

thanks for all the info. i guess this title is the most accurate for 1984 live versions:

as titled on 840827  Live at Sweet Basil Vol.1
Blues in C (suite including "John's Memory" "Cheryl" "Bongo Beep" "Relaxin at Camarillo") 

and same title even for the 1984 versions that don't have the opening theme that can be heard from 38:12-42:07 on the sweet basil youtube link above.

it doesn't make 100% sense, but naming them 

Blues in C (suite including "Cheryl" "Bongo Beep" "Relaxin at Camarillo")  

would make even less sense.