Norman Granz' J.A.T.P. Carnegie Hall, 1949, uncredited sax solo on 'Stuffy'

[l p]

https://www.discogs.com/Various-Norman-Granz-JATP-Carnegie-Hall-1949/release/603191

aka 2-11-49

only hawkins is credited sax on Stuffy. but the ts soloist from 1-4 minutes isn't hawkins, correct?

i think it's hawkins starting at 7 minutes, but that may not be him either.

 

[jazztrain]

I'm listening now.  The first tenor sax solo is clearly Hawkins.  Lots of typical Hawkins phrases.

Same with the second tenor solo.  He's honking more than usual, but perhaps it's the JATP setting.

Stuffy is his tune, as well.

 

 

[bichos]

just listening to it: yes, i think it´s different. i would say it´s flip phillips, the only other Tenor on this concert - beside the sax section of the machito orchestra. (but on the other hand. on the outro there is only one sax to hear after the misterious short "second" tenor-solo). ohh, if we can only see the tv footage of this concert! (because i think it was one of the first live Television broadcasts of a jazz concert.

Keep boppin´

marcel

 

[l p]

it's not on youtube, so i uploaded it here

http://picosong.com/aSKU/

it's not hawkins on the 2nd ts solo either (the one starting at 7 minutes). so he's out on the whole tune.

[JSngry]

Hawk all the way.

[medjuck]

Sure sounds like Bean to me but Flip Phillips was a bit of a chameleon.  

[JSngry]

Comparing this performance to another one from 1949 JATP, the routine seems about the same, the only difference being the one additional chorus before the...whatever that thing is, that set melody before the riffy "shout chorus" that is not present on this YT. , Both sound like Hawk at all times.

What strikes me here is Hank Jones...pretty aggressive comping, feeding Hawk moving changes that are on the surface at odds with his definitely more "direct" lines. But Hawk in 1949 was beginning to be a changed man as far as "blues" went, already feeling the sting of perceived "old-fashionedness" that would only grow as time passed. Don Byas moved to Europe behind that shit. Hawk stayed here and let it play out, defiant to the very end.

There's one R&B type record that Hawk played on around this time, don't remember what it is, our O-Buddy Shawn hipped me to it a while back, and Hawk does this thing on a low B (or Bb) one of the very bottomest notes on the horn, one that most guys would just blow out for the honk effect. Hawk hits the note perfectly, full tone, full vibrato, loud as hell but not distorted - and that's the only note he plays for, like, most of the entire chorus. It's eerie as hell, I tell you. Coleman Hawkins from just a few years ago would not be caught dead making that kind of a record, never mind playing that kind of a solo. But there he was, and there he did it. It's on one of the Chornological Classics discs, iirc.

Yeah, that's Hawk. There are certain things in a real voice, tonal things, cadences between syllables/notes, certain "tells" that you can all but the very best imitators cannot get to, and even they can only confuse you, they can't fool you with any guarantee of certainty.

 

[l p]

ok, it's probably hawkins, but at his most mundane. maybe he was ill. but sophisticated lady from the same show sounds fine.

[bichos]

we have a similar Situation (but this time vice versa) on September 19, 1949 also at carnegie hall and also at jatp. it´s on disc 3 of the (at that time) complete Charlie parker on Verve 10 cd box. track 8 "perdido": during the end of ella´s vocal on perdido, the Applause and shouting builds and one hears "hawk" (he performed at this concert) called out. "perdido" was flip phillips Domain, but the Tenor solo  does begin with a hawk like lick and contains a few other Hawkins style phrases....  from the liner notes on page 28/29.

 

Keep boppin´

marcel

[JSngry]

This one?

That's definitely not Hawk after Ella. Not the same tone as Hawk's, not the same internal rhythm as Hawk. If he was there, that's Flip Phillips.

[mjzee]

I'm in agreement with l p, that the first tenor is not Hawk.  The second tenor solo sounds like Hawk from the first note.

[JSngry]

I'd bet Bob Dylan's Nobel Prize that it is Hawk.

[mjzee]

We don't yet know if he'll accept it.

[JSngry]

Can I have it if he doesn't? That would really help me transition to retirement.

[mjzee]

I'll ask him and let you know.

[medjuck]

4 hours ago, JSngry said:

This one?

That's definitely not Hawk after Ella. Not the same tone as Hawk's, not the same internal rhythm as Hawk. If he was there, that's Flip Phillips.

FWIW (which is probably not much) I agree:  no way that's Hawkins after Ella. (And the liner notes continue to say that it's probably Phillips.)  

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, mjzee said:

I'll ask him and let you know.

Please, because I really, really am getting anxiety-ish now that my work from home has been revoked and I have to go into the office every day now. Six years of working from home, combined with now being almost 61, I'm basically rurnt for that now. But I have no immediately viable options. So if Bob wants to help a solid B-Level fan out, hey, much appreciated, more than literature can say.

[mjzee]

I agree, it would be a noble gesture on his part.  I'll put in a good word for you.

[JSngry]

I am not worthy, but I do thank you for that.

[mjzee]

I called him, but he told me to talk to A.J. Weberman.  That sounded like a bunch of garbage.

Still, I had greater success than the Nobel committee: Nobel Prize committee can’t seem to find Bob Dylan

[JSngry]

I bet Bob's gonna get Andy Kaufman to show up in his place.