Did Basie Have A Regular Drummer Between Harold Jones & Butch Miles???

[JSngry]

If so, who? 

[Mark Stryker]

Interesting question. Just judging by the recordings, Jones was with the band as late as April 1972. Sonny Payne also recorded with the big band in April 1972 and he's subsequently on Basie recordings until October of 1973. This suggests Payne may have been back on the band full time for a year-and-a-half, but it could also mean that Basie was going through drummers and when the recordings came up, he just brought Payne back to pinch it.

After October 1973, Basie stopped making big band records for a bit and from December 1973 to July 1975 (Montreux), Louis Bellson appears on a bunch of Basie small group recordings. Butch Miles' first recording with the big band are also in July 1975 at Montreux.

So, if we assume that Payne really did rejoin the band after Jones, then the more narrow question is whether there was a regular drummer in the big band between roughly November 1973 to whenever Miles joined in 1975. I just found a newspaper review from Myrtle Beach, S.C., dated Feb. 5, 1975, that mentions that Butch Miles had joined the band only six days earlier. So that means Miles was on board by the end of January 1975.

So now we know our date range: November 1973 through January 1975 -- about 15 months. But here are more pieces of the puzzle. An Akron Beacon Journal review from January  13, 1974 -- written by John Von Rhein who would soon become the longtime classical music critic at the Chicago Tribune -- names Payne as the drummer. And a March 20, 1974  review in a Minneapolis paper also names Payne So that's increasing evidence that Payne was in fact back on board as the regular drummer from  April 1972 until at least March 1974.

Who accounts for 10 months  between March 1974  and  January 1975?  

More fodder: A Leonard Feather review in the LA Times on December 3, 1974, says that Skeets Marsh was on drums -- that's the "egomaniac" (Elvin Jones' description) that was partially responsible for driving Elvin from the Ellington band back in 1966.) Feather is not complementary: "A drummer named Skeets Marsh, possibly aware that he is filling shoes once occupied by Gus Johnson and Sonny Payne, played as if the shoes were too tight. A Basie band with a less than perfect rhythm section just isn't the Basie band." 

Obviously, not clear how long Marsh was in the drum chair, but there are  YouTube  videos dated October and November where the drummer also appears to be Marsh, but the evidence now puts Marsh in the band for at least the months of October, November, and December 1974.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Mark Stryker

[JSngry]

Yeah, question prompted by Feather's liners on Basie Big Band. Never take that cat at face value, but it got be to looking at recording chronology and yes, there was a gap.

Is it wrong to look at the Pablo big bang records as the RSV of the NT band? Maybe? Marshall Royal is gone, all the drummers are certainly neither Payne nor Jones in style7, Sammy Nestico as the main writer is a different flavor... none of which would be really worth noticing if not for that gap... 

[Mark Stryker]

2 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Yeah, question prompted by Feather's liners on Basie Big Band. Never take that cat at face value, but it got be to looking at recording chronology and yes, there was a gap.

Is it wrong to look at the Pablo big bang records as the RSV of the NT band? Maybe? Marshall Royal is gone, all the drummers are certainly neither Payne nor Jones in style7, Sammy Nestico as the main writer is a different flavor... none of which would be really worth noticing if not for that gap... 

RSV?

[JSngry]

Revised Standard Version.

 

[Mark Stryker]

Maybe, kinda? In concert, while the band was playing a lot of Nestico, the bread and butter were NT standards -- Shiny Stockings, Corner Pocket, April In Paris, In a Mellotone, etc. Besides, Nestico is sort of like Hefti Light anyway  -- the charts are definitely less filling but, alas, not the same great taste.

I've probably said this before, but the only post-1969 Basie big band LP that I need in my life is "I Told You So," arranged by Bill Holman (1976). That's a great album, and one to put with the earlier single-arranger dates from Foster, Carter, Q, etc. 

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Mark Stryker

[JSngry]

I'm starting to appreciate the little (and they are little) distinctive touches in Nestico's writing. 

I must be getting daft or something, but I am.  Shoot me now, before it gets worse, maybe 

 

[John Tapscott]

5 hours ago, Mark Stryker said:

Interesting question. Just judging by the recordings, Jones was with the band as late as April 1972. Sonny Payne also recorded with the big band in April 1972 and he's subsequently on Basie recordings until October of 1973. This suggests Payne may have been back on the band full time for a year-and-a-half, but it could also mean that Basie was going through drummers and when the recordings came up, he just brought Payne back to pinch it.

After October 1973, Basie stopped making big band records for a bit and from December 1973 to July 1975 (Montreux), Louis Bellson appears on a bunch of Basie small group recordings. Butch Miles' first recording with the big band are also in July 1975 at Montreux.

So, if we assume that Payne really did rejoin the band after Jones, then the more narrow question is whether there was a regular drummer in the big band between roughly November 1973 to whenever Miles joined in 1975. I just found a newspaper review from Myrtle Beach, S.C., dated Feb. 5, 1975, that mentions that Butch Miles had joined the band only six days earlier. So that means Miles was on board by the end of January 1975.

So now we know our date range: November 1973 through January 1975 -- about 15 months. But here are more pieces of the puzzle. An Akron Beacon Journal review from January  13, 1974 -- written by John Von Rhein who would soon become the longtime classical music critic at the Chicago Tribune -- names Payne as the drummer. And a March 20, 1974  review in a Minneapolis paper also names Payne So that's increasing evidence that Payne was in fact back on board as the regular drummer from  April 1972 until at least March 1974.

Who accounts for 10 months  between March 1974  and  January 1975?  

More fodder: A Leonard Feather review in the LA Times on December 3, 1974, says that Skeets Marsh was on drums -- that's the "egomaniac" (Elvin Jones' description) that was partially responsible for driving Elvin from the Ellington band back in 1966.) Feather is not complementary: "A drummer named Skeets Marsh, possibly aware that he is filling shoes once occupied by Gus Johnson and Sonny Payne, played as if the shoes were too tight. A Basie band with a less than perfect rhythm section just isn't the Basie band." 

Obviously, not clear how long Marsh was in the drum chair, but there are  YouTube  videos dated October and November where the drummer also appears to be Marsh, but the evidence now puts Marsh in the band for at least the months of October, November, and December 1974.

Payne was definitely the drummer at two Basie concerts I attended in the summer of '74. (July, '74, to be more precise)  IIRC, the bass drum had Sonny's name on it.  (My first experience of hearing the Basie Band live). 

Sounds like Payne left in the early fall of '74 to be replaced by Marsh, who in turn was replaced by Butch Miles when the band resumed in January  '75 (according to Leonard Feather's liner notes to "Basie Big Band" on Pablo. rec. Aug 26, and 27, 1975.) So I think the mystery is pretty much solved.

 

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by John Tapscott

[JSngry]

How was Payne on those 70s Basie gigs?

There's some things on YouTube ca. 1970 of him with Harry James where he seems a bit old and...labored.

Kinda made me sad. But maybe it was just that particular night or whatever 

[John Tapscott]

36 minutes ago, JSngry said:

How was Payne on those 70s Basie gigs?

There's some things on YouTube ca. 1970 of him with Harry James where he seems a bit old and...labored.

Kinda made me sad. But maybe it was just that particular night or whatever 

Hard to remember; it's been a long time; and that was my first Basie live experience. (This was not the best band Basie ever had; later editions I saw in concert with different drummers were better) . I do remember Sonny's stick twirling and tossing.  I suspect that your impression of him on the James video is not far from the mark. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by John Tapscott

[JSngry]

Yeah, he dropped a stick, which I guess was not that unusual, and he recovered ok, but it wasn't spunky at all.

Like I said, a bit sad. 

That's one thing that gets me about Buddy Rich, if he ever played tired, I've never seen it.

But then again, Buddy Rich was crazy. 

[gmonahan]

On 9/4/2022 at 5:36 PM, JSngry said:

Yeah, he dropped a stick, which I guess was not that unusual, and he recovered ok, but it wasn't spunky at all.

Like I said, a bit sad. 

That's one thing that gets me about Buddy Rich, if he ever played tired, I've never seen it.

But then again, Buddy Rich was crazy. 

Certifiable. But what a drummer......