Help Wanted...

[DrJ]

We're moving, to a bigger place, 1st week of May. One of the many great things about the new place is that I finally get a dedicated music listening room!

In the short term, I'll be using some stuff I have on hand to fill in there (the main surround system will remain in the living room), but over the next months to couple of years, I plan to assemble a nice dedicated music listening set-up (no home theater doubling!).

That's where you good people come in! There's so much collective audio wisdom and experience here that I'd be crazy not to tap into it and get some ideas for optimal setup. Room dimensions are 11.5 x 14 feet, and probably the speakers will be oriented in the longer direction. The floor is going to be hardwood, but will have a large area rug to dampen reflections. The windows (2, relatively small), will have fabric blinds to further dampen reflections.

I'm keeping a very open mind for now to any suggestions, although I have some things I'm interested in. This includes a range of costs. I'm not so much worried about all but the most expensive gear costing "too much," but I am very much interested in getting the most bang for buck - I don't have a deep need to have the most expensive option for each element, I just want great sounding stuff.

SO - I'd like to get a range of opinions on any or all the following planned elements - what would you go for if you had the money and opportunity to do it?

1. Amplifier (I seldom listen to the radio and can do so in the family room when I do, so won't have any need for a tuner). I'm open to all options - tube, etc.

2. SACD/DVD-A/CD ("universal") player (I would like a top quality combo player - I know you can get high end CD players that probably sound better but it's just not going to be an option, at least for now). The new Teac Esoteric player looks VERY nice, great write up in Downbeat recently.

3. Speakers. Since I will have SACD and would enjoy the option of surround, I need recs on front, center, and rear speakers.

4. Cables/connectors - what's your poison?

5. Other gear - can include racks, comfy chairs, and other accountrements (nothing is too silly to mention if you feel it enhances your listening experience).

I am sticking with my current turntable so no suggestions needed there.

So have at it - please, help me get set up real good!

Edited March 28, 2004 by DrJ

[jacknife]

1. Amplifier (I seldom listen to the radio and can do so in the family room when I do, so won't have any need for a tuner). I'm open to all options - tube

If you might be considering a 2 channel tube amp, be sure to check out the Cayin TA-30. It's a real bargin at $599 stock or $850 fully modded. Great sound, awesome build quality for the price.

[mgraham333]

I've been extremely happy with my Denon DVD-2900 Universal DVD/CD/SACD/DVD-Audio player.

[jazzbo]

After my decade or so of upgrading, I have to recommend www.decware.com The products there are really so loud in the "bang for your buck" department, dependable, hand-built, and most of all sound fantastic! I've been using their products for about seven years and eventually my main system will likely be ALL Decware. . . right now I only lack the source component.

You'll find innovative thinking in many ways as well. There are pages on room setup here that I think are quite valuable. I wasn't able to put them in place, at least not yet. . . .

[DrJ]

Thanks for the recs so far, folks...I'm keeping track of all of them and doing research, giving each very serious consideration. Will ultimately post on decisions and hopefully add some photos to the growing gallery of audio geek images on the board! Please, KEEP 'EM COMING!

Lon, thanks for reminding me about the Decware stuff, I know you'd given me a link to a universal player a while back that looked mighty tempting...the pricing on these seems incredibly fair.

mgraham333 - I've been consistently amazed at the audio quality of my Denon AVR-3300 receiver, really outstanding considering it's a home theater-oriented rig. They were very forward thinking with things like including 6 direct ins well before SACD became commonplace, having a direct pass to allow turntable signals to bypass the digital downsampling circuitry, etc. It also has a PCM switch that allows one to get the full benefit of higher resolution CDs (a feature I didn't even discover until last year, after having had it for several years!). Clearly they were aiming at folks like me, who wanted great listening and also needed home theater capability - and it's not going anywhere as far as the family room surround sound theater set up goes, will hopefully be a mainstay for at least a few more years. A longwinded way of saying given my happiness with that product I'll give their universal player a VERY careful look for my listening room!

One question for you about the Denon - when you were buying, did you compare it against the less expensive Pioneer DV45-A? That's the universal player I currently have. Would be interested in your comments if you did.

Edited March 29, 2004 by DrJ

[DrJ]

jacknife Posted: Mar 28 2004, 10:34 PM 

If you might be considering a 2 channel tube amp, be sure to check out the Cayin TA-30. It's a real bargin at $599 stock or $850 fully modded. Great sound, awesome build quality for the price.

I just read a couple reviews on this one and it's makin' my mouth water. There is mention about not all speakers being "tube friendly" - what is your speaker set up, jacknife, and do you have any words of wisdom in selecting speakers for tube amps?

[mgraham333]

One question for you about the Denon - when you were buying, did you compare it against the less expensive Pioneer DV45-A? That's the universal player I currently have. Would be interested in your comments if you did.

The Pioneer DV45-A was certainly in the mix when I made my Denon DVD-2900 purchase. I was fortunate enough to have a salesman that was willing to work with me and swap players in and out on a test system that was similar to what I have at home (which includes the Denon AVR-3300 - I agree with you 100% about it).

In the end, it came down to a few factors:

* the build quality (the thing weighs about 18 pounds)

* my familiarity with the Denon brand

* when used as a DVD player, it had one of the sharpest pictures I had ever seen

* my friend bought one and I was able to really give it a good workout in a real-world environment

The Pioneer was a close second and probably would have made me happy.

[jacknife]

I just read a couple reviews on this one and it's makin' my mouth water. There is mention about not all speakers being "tube friendly" - what is your speaker set up, jacknife, and do you have any words of wisdom in selecting speakers for tube amps?

Tube friendly speakers need to be efficient, meaning about 90db or higher @8 or 4 ohms. I have Soliloquy 6.2 speakers which are 89 db efficient @ 8 ohms and the cayin TA-30 has more than enough power at either the 30 watts a channel or the single ended mode of 4 watts a channel. I have yet to turn it up even half way. I'm not sure if you are in the US but if you are and if you might be interested in this amp, be sure to give Paul at Bizzy Bee a call. He is a great guy to deal with and will talk to you at length on the phone if you like.

Edited March 29, 2004 by jacknife

[jacknife]

Here's an interesting link for 2 channel speaker placement. Edited March 29, 2004 by jacknife

[DrJ]

Thanks for the additional info, Jacknife! The speaker placement site is interesting.

[marcoliv]

recently i bought the universal player from Marantz DV-6400 and i´m more than pleased.

definitive technology are my favorite speakers

MCO

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I looked long and hard at the Denon 2900 & 5400 this past November as my work gets a huge discount on Denon gear. I already had the Pioneer DV-45A and thought maybe one of these would be a step up, particularly the 5400 as it has a DVI output.

During my research, I found that a lot of people were going through the same comparison. Many were choosing the Pioneer because the transport is world-class... bulletproof is the word used a lot. Others chose the Denon because it does come out "on top" in the video department, however, I love the picture on my Pioneer unit so this was less important.

There are also a lot of problems with both Denons with respect to being truly "universal". They seem to gack on some SACD hybrids and mess up during playback on others. There's a whole slew of problems with the 5400 with the biggest one being that the firmware bunged up the DVI output... the whole reason I was looking at it in the first place!

If I were looking for a new universal player, I would look long & hard at the Pioneer Elite DV59-AVi. This is Pioneer's latest universal player and it has a DVI output. Since Pioneer "lost" on the bench in the video shootout with the DV-45A and DV-47Ai (models), they will surely have worked on that aspect and I bet they improved.

As for the sound, I love my Pioneer DV-45A, especially in the high-rez modes. Add to that this is the best CD player I've ever owned and I think I made the right decision when I chose to stay put.

BTW, I did use my Denon discount to buy a Denon AVR-3803. Musically, it is a marvel and I think I made a wise choice in this regard. However, I am not all that in love with it's "auto mode" as a home theater box. I have to punch way too many buttons to switch between sources and modes with the biggest PITA being the fact that multi-channel high-rez audio will only work with analog inputs. In fact, if I could, I would swap it with an NAD T753, available on-line at Yawa, if someone wanted to take me up on it. In fact, I'd probably even consider a refurbished NAD T762. The NAD receivers look a lot "simpler" in design. The only fault I've read about is that the cooling fan is supposed to be pretty loud.

If you want to go surround for audio, I can give you some advice: Don't do what I just did. I tried going the home theater route but I upgraded the rear speakers by picking up a pair of B&W 600 S3 bookshelf speakers. They are too weak back there when I play music. OK, but weak. Of course, having them mounted 6 feet up the wall doesn't help. In audio surround, there is full range music coming out of all 5 speakers. Buy 5 full range speakers and you'll be much better off. If money was no object, I'd get 5 B&W 604 S3 speakers. Bliss.

Later,

Kevin

[DrJ]

Thanks for the detailed reply, Kevin. I have been quite pleased with my DV45-A, nothing wrong with it at all and phenomenal value for cost ratio, but like you I am looking for a step up. I'll certainly give the higher end Pioneer player a very careful look.

Thanks also for the surround speaker suggestions - that was my thought too, go with full range speakers throughout. Currently in our family room home theater I have some really nice Cambridge Soundworks Newton MultiPole S300's. These are three-way, have four-speaker cones, and three dispersion settings via an easy switch: direct, bipole and dipole. So you get lots of mileage out of these, with each setting sounding better for a specific application (e.g. some sound better with old Dolby ProLogic signals, some with 5.1, some with SACD/DVD-A). However, they are small speaker cones and they're still rather weak for SACD/DVD-A, obviously not going to reproduce the full spectrum like a full size speaker, so I will probably leave those where they are and go the type of route you recommend for the listening room. I can put all the speakers at proper placement the listening room too without worring about messing up the family room decor...my rear surrounds in the family room are also mounted about 6 feet up the wall and way too far behind the listening spot, just based on room layout and esthetics! It really saps the audio potential of the system, I have to sit in JUST the right spot to even HEAR the surrounds most of the time...

Edited March 31, 2004 by DrJ

[mgraham333]

..with the biggest PITA being the fact that multi-channel high-rez audio will only work with analog inputs...

I was under the impression that this was industry-wide. The analog-only for hi-rez audio was a demand that the content owners demanded of the hardware manufacturers in order to get the hi-rez audio format moving.

If I'm wrong I'd love to see some specs that specifically say that hi-rez audio is available through a digital input.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

..with the biggest PITA being the fact that multi-channel high-rez audio will only work with analog inputs...

I was under the impression that this was industry-wide. The analog-only for hi-rez audio was a demand that the content owners demanded of the hardware manufacturers in order to get the hi-rez audio format moving.

If I'm wrong I'd love to see some specs that specifically say that hi-rez audio is available through a digital input.

I'm not sure what you're asking here or maybe I just said it wrong... the PITA with forcing the multi-channel audio out of the analog outputs is that my Denon receiver can only automatically switch on digital inputs. This means that if I pop a DVD movie into my Pioneer DV-45A and my Denon is set to "Digital in", it automatically selects the audio surround mode. When I pop a multi-channel audio disc in the same machine, it shuts off the digital so my receiver sits there fat, dumb & happy with nothing coming out of the speakers. I have to go up to the receiver to switch it to the analog inputs... although there may be a button on the remote as well. The remote on this Denon receiver is a nightmare.

Later,

Kevin

[mgraham333]

Kevin:

I misunderstood what your complaint was.

I agree that having to manually switch to analog mode is a pain. It takes me a few seconds to get that figured out every time I do it.

I thought your complaint was that hi-rez audio was only available on analog inputs of the Denon (which as I stated, and I think correctly, that regardless of brand, all receivers must use analog inputs for hi-rez multi-channel audio).

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Kevin:

I misunderstood what your complaint was.

I agree that having to manually switch to analog mode is a pain. It takes me a few seconds to get that figured out every time I do it.

I thought your complaint was that hi-rez audio was only available on analog inputs of the Denon (which as I stated, and I think correctly, that regardless of brand, all receivers must use analog inputs for hi-rez multi-channel audio).

Actually, now that I think of it, it's not entirely true that the high-rez audio is only available through the analog outputs. On both the Pioneer Elite DV-47Ai and the DV49-AVi, there is an IEEE1394 output (which they call i-Link) that will output the high-rez audio digitally. However, it can only be "read" by a Pioneer receiver with IEEE1394 input and can only be decoded there. I just don't see the benefit to this... why would the receiver have better D/A converters than my player? In fact, my player might have even better converters than some of the receivers!

Later,

Kevin

[DrJ]

Any other words of wisdom regarding my set-up, folks?

[wolff]

My 2 cents....

With your sized room I'd get high quality 2 way speakers on stands or small floor standers.

A small integrated tube amp (a big one would heat your room up quick).

What is your current tt?? Do you use it much?

There are too many good racks, stands and cables to mention.

Do you mind buying used? Great deals at Audiogon. What is your budget?

I'd forget about surround in your music room. I do not think the SACD titles in that format are any good and there are not enough of them.

[DrJ]

Thanks for the input wolff. Budget is flexible, fortunately money, while not "no object," is less of a constraint for me than for some. But again I'm more interested in quality and cost-for-features, not just paying top dollar for the sake of saying I did.

I like rock as well as jazz and I have some very good sounding surround mixed rock recordings - in both SACD and DVD-A format - so I'm still interested in surround - can't see myself using it much or at all for jazz though I agree.

Turntable is a Technics SL-1200MK2, which is more than fine for my purposes. I primarily use it to play vinyl once, long enough to transfer the LP to a CD-R.

Edited April 8, 2004 by DrJ

[wolff]

Well, if you are going surround for audio, I cannot be of much help.

I'd guess you would need a 5 or 6 channel amp/pre-amp. I'd hate to see you miss out on having a nice tube stereo or a pair of tube mono blocks amps. That's a trade-off I would not consider.

How about a 2 channel audio room and set up a decent audio system in the video room to play your surround SACD's?

Go listen to a nice dedicated 2 channel audio system and then listen to a surround system with the same music.

Edited April 8, 2004 by wolff

[DrJ]

Yeah, I suspect you're right, and have actually been thinking more along the lines you mention wolff. Probably the best way I'll go. So thanks for the nudge in that direction. The more I consider it, what I am truly most interested in trying to get, first and foremost, is really outstanding 2-channel sound, whether for LP, CD, or SACD.

[frankc]

Personally, for that size room, a yba 2 amp/preamp or integre, warmth, soundstage--very.very non fatiguing; speakers and source is difficult, JMJAB match well, yba very revealing,repectively, but you want sacd, not sure. perhaps other folks can be of help...don't buy retail. audiogon, canuck audio mart etc...offer great deals to echo shrugs, at least 40%-60% off retail; most of this stuff is readilly available in the US---you should have a listen especially for source and speakers and then go to the web to buy

fc

[wolff]

With all these different formats available it's also good to choose just one(unless your budget is big), so you can start with a great front end.

[DrJ]

OK, I'll bite - if you were going to recommend a great front end CD player, not universal, what would you suggest wolff?