Help Wanted...

[wolff]

CD player....no idea. Digital is an afterthought in my system. I've heard a few good ones, but never lived with them. The Musical Fidelity NuVista CD player was one of the best I've heard.

Now, if it was a turntable.....

[DrJ]

Still shopping and learning...a couple more questions for the gallery:

1. Anyone heard the Jolida JD302B integrated tube amp? It has gotten some rave reviews from just about everyone and seems like an incredible bargain at about $1000, in the same ballpark as the Cayin TA-30 based on price and per the reviews I've seen.

The Decware SE34-I integrated tube amp isn't too far out of that price range either at about $1500, and looks like a contender, but I am concerned about the much lower output rating (7 W per channel, versus 50 for the Jolida and 35 for the Cayin). I have a nice older pair of Infinity Crescendo 3009 series speakers that I think would handle the other two without problem based on their spec sheet I just re-reviewed, but might not do well with the Decware. Not a "deal breaker" problem as we need to buy a second pair of speakers either way (whether I use the Infinity's in my listening room or leave them with the home theater and get new speakers for the listening room) but this decision will obviously impact on my speaker shopping goals/strategy.

The YBA suggestion was appreciated, but at more than twice the cost of these others with no clear consensus I've read about it being any better, it's fallen down on the list.

2. A more general question - are there any quality integrated tube amps in the price range of those that come with a remote? It's not an absolute necessity for me but would of course be a nice feature. I know the Jolida doesn't have one and it doesn't look like the Cayin does.

3. Coming from having a home theater combo listening/viewing/surround rig, I'm used to my receiver having digital inputs...but of course tube amps like the Jolida and Cayin don't have 'em. With a high quality front end combo player, and really good analog connectors, will I be missing anything (e.g. in terms of sonic detail) by not having direct digital ins? I'm assuming not and that I'll gain in warmth, spaciousness, midrange and high end clarity without harshness, etc, but just checking!

4. What about biwiring capability on the Cayin and Decware? It appears that the Jolida supports it, but can't tell about these other two. I am NOT interested in a debate about whether it makes a difference or not - on my current rig, my ears tell me that for me it makes a pretty substantial difference, so I'm interested although again this is not a deal breaker one way or the other.

5. Finally - Still leaning toward the Teac Esoteric DV-50 for front end...the Denon 5900 and Pioneer DV59-AVi look like great players for the price but don't come anywhere near the upsampling capabilities and flexibility in algorithms offered by the Esoteric machine. Anyone who has one that can comment?

[jazzbo]

I've heard two models of Jolida amps and I don't think they are in the same league as the Decware amps. To my ears the Decware---and at the time I was listening to the Jolidas I had their very first amp without any of the three revisions they now have on the basic model---had more clarity and less grain. On the Decware board there have been several who reported that they thought Jolidas were very good til they heard Decware or good vintage tube gear.

I am not sure that the Integrated from Decware can be used for biwiring. Perhaps. For several reasons you may want to check out Decware's forum and you may want to call up Steve and ask him a few questions about your speakers, etc. Don't be afraid of seven watts. Seven watts of good tube power can really achieve a lot! And my experience with audio has led me to believe that the lowest powered amps are really the best. . . . My five watt amps do all I need them to, and I really loved my two watt amp and agonized over parting with it to afford these new ones! Nothing quite like the deepdown wholeness and clarity of the sound.

There is a speaker for 700 dollars made by a fellow named Dave Parker that is made specificially for the basic Zen amps that keeps getting increasingly more positive reviews from Decware users. . . the Parker Audio 95s. Their ohms and effeciency are set up to match the amps'. I'd be tempted if I didn't already have the Radial speakers, which are the best I've every heard; these speakers are just the bedrock of my listening world.

Edited April 18, 2004 by jazzbo

[jacknife]

I've never heard or seen this one but it does have a remote.

ASL

I use a preamp that has a remote with my cayin TA-30, sounds great. All you need to do is max the volume on the cayin and add a preamp.

The Cayin comes with standard binding posts that accept banana's and\or spades so biwiring is possible just depends on how you want to do it.

Edited April 18, 2004 by jacknife

[wolff]

I'd stay away from low powered amps until...........you've heard them with your speakers or buy some new ones that are more sensitive then ones you have.

Any amp can be used for bi-wiring. You just buy bi-wired speaker cables.

Do search at Audiongon for 'tube integrated'. Here's a nice one available from vendor in my area that I'd recommend. LINK

You will not be needing digital inputs. Your cd player will outbut analog signal to your integrated amp.

Jolida and ASL gear is good. Most of us have gone through a few pieces of gear before we settled on something long term. You may have to do the same unless you can audition lots of gear.

The Teac Esoteric DV-50 looks great , but is it overkill for your budget and intended use? If I had it I would match it with very, very good componetnts.

[DrJ]

Thanks for the ongoing comments folks, nothing's decided yet so much appreciated.

I had figured the pre-amp option would be a good way to go for remote, and hadn't realized about the biwiring options.

Re: the "match" of the Esoteric DV-50 with my budget, well, the budget may be getting revised up a bit wolff - as I mentioned if I can hear an appreciable difference I'm willing to pay more to a point, just not wanting to pay more just to say I did.

Haven't made it to our local tube amp dealer (closed on Sundays) but did audition some nice integrated solid state stuff - was particularly impressed with the Meridian G51 which is unfortunately about 2-3 times the cost of the tube amps being discussed here. Still, it sounded awful good, and I'm thinking that I might be open to increasing my budget two-fold from what I'd planned if necessary (and only if necessary). I will also say that I'm rethinking the universal player approach, may just sit for a while with my Pioneer DV45A and put as much as possible into a killer standard CD player - Meridian also has an outstanding option there, the G07, sounded much better than a Mark Levinson player that was twice the price.

Hope to get in some tube amp auditioning next weekend on Saturday, there's a local shop here (one) in Sacramento that specializes from what I hear. And I'm definitely checking out Audiogon for purchase, folks, registered yesterday.

[DrJ]

Couple of last issues:

1. Anyone out there with either the Meridian G07 or G08 CD player (the latter upsamples)? I heard the G07 and was impressed and there are raves about the G08.

2. How about B&W 804 speakers? Heard those today too - purty to look at, plus remarkable clarity, sense of space and separation particularly in the mid and high range, not the most full bass but still remarkable. Anyone with favorable or unfavorable comments?

[wolff]

Nice stuff you've been looking at. Wait until you see/hear the nice tube stuff.

If you did not like Levinson compared to Meridian you should definitely give tube stuff a listen.

See if you can listen to some Conrad Johnson gear. I have one old piece and a friend has some of their newer higher priced spread. Never fails to get the music across. Great company with great customer service.

[DrJ]

Well, I finally got to listen to good tube gear today and I am sold, sold, sold. No comparison and not even close. Most natural sounding stuff I've ever heard. Anyone in the Sacramento area might want to check out Deetes Sound Room, run by Deetes Anderson, a heck of a nice and knowledgeable guy.

Anyway, I'm pretty much sold on the following combination, which fits my price range and taste in sound:

1. Audio Note Meishu integrated tube amp (the Signature upgraded model with phono out). Simply gorgeous in its simplicity and sound, and right for me (the mono blocks sounded a smidge better but out of my range for now and less practical for us for a variety of reasons)

2. Zingali Overture 4 speakers - perfect match for this low watt tube amp and absolutely beautiful carved wood, as artistic in looks as in sound. Very efficient.

I cannot believe how amazing this combo sounds

Now I'm just needing help with the front end...Deetes is in the "high quality DAC would be the way to go" camp, and Audio Note has a couple dandies that eschew the upsampling trend in most of the industry. Sounded phenomenal with the above amp and speakers - but I'm wondering what people think about this issue. At about $3000 for the DAC I'm eyeing, would I get that much more mileage out of my Pioneer DV45A (which has pretty good DACs to begin with but which I'd connect to the DAC via a digital out) or would I be better off spending that kind of money on a whole new upsampling CD player (e.g. the Meridian G08)? Or other options?

[wolff]

Sounds pretty good. That single ended 300B sound is very seductive. I need to get a SE 300B amp at some point.

If the phono adds around 1K or more to price and you do not listen to vinyl much you might look into getting it sans phono and buying a cheaper outboard, stand alone phono stage. But, if you are planning on playing a lot of vinyl and maybe upgrading your vinyl playback, keep it.

Do have a link to the speakers?

[DrJ]

My thoughts exactly on the amp sans phono wolff - still thinking about that.

Here's the link to the speaker manufacturer: www.zingali.it

Web site is well-done.

[wolff]

Beautiful speakers. Love that craftsmanship!! Italian? There goes your budget.

[DrJ]

Yeah, they list for $8100/pr - which is way more than I'd initially hoped to pay but honestly I think it would be worth it in the long run.

Specs-wise, they seem to outdo the comparably priced B&W Nautilus 802s. However, I can't find much if any comment on the Zingalis even on Audiogon. To my ears they sounded awesome - definitely not a "reach out and grab you" sound, very refined and unobtrusive. Would be nice to hear from other owners re: reliability, sound characteristics over time, etc.

What do you think about B&W Nautilus 802s (comparably priced to the Zingalis) with tube gear, wolff? The guy showing me those with the Meridians seemed to feel that while they are efficient they do best when driven with a higher output amp.

[wolff]

I've only heard the larger B&W's with solid state gear. I'd guess they would do fine with 100 wpc tube amp...just guessing. Their impedance drops pretty low which is usually not good for most tube amps.

Yes, it would be good to get feedback from other owners of the speaker. Quite a few people want/wanted to hear my speakers, so I had them over for a listen and it really helped them decide. I'd never heard of Zingalis until now. I see Wellborne Labs lists them as tube friendly. A good sign. Did you listen to the other smaller models? I'm assuming you feel the 4 will fit your room ok and it's more efficient than smaller models.

Sounds like you were very impressed with the sound of combo you listened to, as well you should be for the $$$. Use it as a reference point if you have the patience to look around some more. My guess is you will keep coming back to SET sound if you like it already. The emotion and feeling of music sure come through with that type of amp. If that's the sound that you really like, different SET 300B amps is one avenue to try, but your speaker choices will be limited. 8wpc

I have some 96db speakers that I got with the intention of using with a 300b amp, but have not gotten around to it.

[DrJ]

I had read similar concerns about the B&Ws, with many saying basically they are a great speaker with a powerful solid state amp to drive them but sound less good or even bad with other setups. Probably will avoid that route if I go with the tube amp approach as I'm leaning toward now.

Re: the Zingalis, I did listen to the Overture 3, which is one step down from the 4 ($6100/pr). The advantage for the 4 was in bass reproduction, much fuller. The 3's were lighter in that regard, although sounded fantastic in midrange and high end and certainly no slouches. Less efficient also than the 4s. Deetes felt initially the 3s might be a good fit with my price range and tastes, but also said the 4s are by far the most popular match with the Audio Note Meishu. It was a heavenly combo.

I guess that brings up another question: the listening room as I mentioned will be fairly small, 12x14 range, with floating wood floor using area rug(s). Would the 4's be TOO MUCH for that small a room, particularly in terms of potential for boominess in the bass end? If that is an issue then the 3's were certainly excellent and might even be a better fit with the room (plus they have a smaller footprint, also nice in a small space).

[wolff]

Will the speakers be good for your room?? Ask your dealer and see if he can find out how others are setting theirs up, etc.. Maybe, you can e-mail Zingali. Most speakers need some room to breath. Some like to be well into room. When I get mine closer than 18 inches from wall they get boomy. Many like being 2-3 feet from rear and side walls(makes reflections less of a problem). In your room you will not have much room to play around. There is usually a small area where speaker sounds it's best . Seems like the deeper a speaker goes the more critical placement is. I've also heard speakers with fairly deep bass sound fine in a room about your size.

[DrJ]

OK, the listening room is beginning to take shape! After some very careful comparison listening yesterday, I'm pretty much set on the following:

Audio Note Meishu tube amp

Zingali Overture 2 speakers (these are the newer version, not the slightly older 2s - and they are even more physically beautiful and sound just as good)

Audio Note silver interconnects and speaker cables

Audio Note 2.1 DAC (see below!)

Audio Note CD Zero transport

I have just been floored by the AN/Zingali combination, most vinyl-like, musical, non-fatiguing sound I've ever heard. The Overture 2 is 2/3 of the larger Overture 4, which I'm sure would sound even better but it's too large and $3000 more! Just can't justify that for a small room and when the Overture 2 sounds so fantastic.

With the AN DAC, even my Pioneer DV45A (which I brought in and used while demoing) sounded fantastic...we hooked it up first without the DAC and while it was still a great system, the digital harshness and lack of detail and depth were really obvious, immediately, especially on poorer recordings (which I brought because let's face it, a lot of great older jazz was poorly recorded). I found the DAC to be a real important step in a system of this quality...while I'm sure there are good "all in one" players that would sound about as nice, the great thing about the separate DAC and transport is upgrade capacity over time, plus I am now a firm convert to AN's "zero over/upsampling" philosophy after hearing the difference for myself. It flat out don't sound digital!

ONE BIG REMAINING QUESTION: Should I go for the AN BALANCED 2.1 DAC or the Signature, which is unbalanced? I've read that balanced is a huge important thing, as well as other opinions that say it's a vastly overrated feature and can actually lead to detriments in sound. Wasn't able to A/B unfortunately, all I heard was the balanced and it sounded phenomenal to me. But if it's not that important, could save me about $600 or so, so figured I'd ask the experts!

[wolff]

Well??? How are liking it???

[DrJ]

Sorry for the late response, it's been crazy lately...

Well, I am finally going to be able to pick up the Meishu amp this weekend. I have been using the rest of the set up with my Denon home theater amp and even with that suboptimal set up, it's sounding fantastic. This has transformed my listening experience, I feel I'm hearing a lot of the music for the first time.

The jump up from this already stellar sound when the Meishu is in the chain should be almost too much to take!

I can't wait to fire up the "complete" system this weekend (still not quite actually complete as my Mapleshade Samson rack and floor amp stand are both not arrived yet, but should be soon).

[DrJ]

The Meishu has taken the system a huge notch up...remarkable, remarkable sound. After waffling quite a bit, I ended up going for the model with the phono stage (got a great deal on this), and I'm really glad because vinyl sounds fantastic even with my workmanlike, distinctly non-audiophile Technics MK-1200 turntable and Ortofon MM cartridge. I do notice that vinyl that I once thought was in good condition has quite a bit of surface noise - the Meishu is so damn sensitive it brings everything out.

But CDs also sound amazing with the AN Signature DAC 2.1/Meishu combo, it's a real coin toss which I prefer - the CDs just have so much separation and pinpoint imaging, but the vinyl sure sounds warm and rich. I've never heard a truer reproduction of the source material - great recordings sound other-worldy, and the faults are faithfully reproduced in the less great ones. I notice tape hiss on sessions I never heard before (e.g. the Ella Gershwin songbooks last night). But none of this is a "negative," I like the idea of hearing what's there to hear.

One interesting thing I didn't expect - when I had the whole rig except the Meishu and was running the Denon amp, the bass was on the boomy side and I had to move the speakers way far in to the room, away from the walls, to reduce this. With the Meishu, there is plenty of bass, but I can also move the speakers back quite close to the walls without inducing boom until they're basically right on top of the wall (I ended up with the back and sides of the speakers only about 12-18 inches from the walls). I assume this has something to do with the high quality of the low-end signal from the Meishu, but I'm not sure. Regardless, it's a real boon in a small listening room.

Man, do those tubes run hot! That's about the only downside I can find so far with this set up; in a small listening room it can really raise the temperature quite a bit; in the Central Valley in California in the summer, where temps routinely hit the century mark, this is not great. Should be nice for those cold winter months, though!

Anyway, I LOVE this rig and my listening room. Anyone contemplating any of this gear, I can highly endorse it.

[Stefan Wood]

Sounds awesome! I wish I could come close to a similar set up like that. A question, though. You notice a lot more background sound and noise from your sources -- the lps and cds and such -- is that necessarily a good thing? The problem I have at times with hi end audio is that when you upgrade on piece, you end up having to upgrade another, and so on.

[DrJ]

I don't think upgrading is the issue here, Stefan. Rather, I notice that with a truly high end set-up you just hear the recording, warts and all. It's not distracting to me at all, just different and kind of remarkable to think all this information was there but hidden by lousy electronics.

I think this exposure of detail is great, personally, because it really does separate the great recordings from the merely good ones. It's the same phenomenon that allows me to hear differences in, say, the 4 tenor players' styles on VERY SAXY - with the ability to bring out detail, you do also hear more of the recording flaws. I guess it might bother some out there - if so, it's probably good, you'll save yourself some serious dough!

One thing I will reiterate is that my turntable is by far the "weakest link" in the chain, so it's possible the noise is eminating from inferior electronics. So your point may be salient there. I'm not in any great hurry to upgrade since I listen to CDs over vinyl about 20:1, and it sure sounds like surface noise to me, but eventually (several years from now maybe) I will look into this and do some listening to compare and see if an upgrade would be worthwhile.

Edited August 2, 2004 by DrJ

[wolff]

LOL Sacramento is probably not the best place for tubes in the summer.

How are those 8 watts driving the speakers?

I'm finally trying to sell my 60WPC tube amp to get a 300B amp. I've had the speakers to go with it for some time(96db). A used Meishu Phono sounds good to me.

You may want to try some cheap fixes regarding surface noise with the tt.

Is it nicely isolated from vibrations and the other components?

Is it level? Put a bubble level on the platter and check.

Cartridge aligned? There are free alignment protractors you can download or send away for. Misaligned cartridge will cause havoc with high frequencies, among other things.

New, cheap cartridge?

As long as the music's emotion and feeling are coming through loud and clear(which Audio Note products are known for) the added info(recording flaws) should be of little bother.

Edited August 2, 2004 by wolff

[DrJ]

Thanks for the turntable tips, Wolff. Right now I am still waiting for my Samson rack, scheduled to arrive on Wednesday or so of this week. So the turntable is on the floor, although it's a hard wood floor and very level. But I'm sure there are some transmitted vibrations, it's sitting (by virtue of not having anywhere else to put it) right next to the base of the left speaker right now. I will definitely give it another hearing after it's on the rack.

My suspicion though is that it will turn out to be garden variety surface noise at play...some of my LPs I've had for a long time, they're not in pristine condition. They still sound fantastic though, and as you put it the emotion shines through. When I play the ones that I have that are in great condition, the noise disappears, so I'm pretty much sure that's it.

The 8 watts drive the Zingalis without any problem at all, power to spare. A really nice full, rich sound. Playing some modern recordings like Bjork's VESPERTINE, where there is a lot of (intentional) rumbling on the low end, the floor was appropriately shaking - hey, who needs a subwoofer? Still, as good as the bass reproduction of this rig is to me, it would probably fall a bit short for people who really love the boom.

I don't see it ever being an issue for someone who listens primarily to classical and jazz - in fact the sound repro for double bass is breathtaking, I listened to a Buster Williams solo last night on Ben Riley's WEAVER OF DREAMS transfixed and literally had to remind myself to close my mouth and stop drooling. But for people reared on rock played through solid state home theater type setups, it's a whole different sound and they may not warm to it.

Bass is great then for me, but the real strength of this set up is in the amazing imaging and depth of soundstage, and the fantastically natural - translucent is the word I keep coming up with - midrange and high end. Simply put, you are there!