JSngry Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 (edited) But HERE'S the crux of the matter as it relates to this discussion! From http://www.gutenberg.org/howto/header-howto again: If you do not charge anything for copies of this eBook, (emphasis added) complying with the rules is very easy. You may use this eBook for nearly any purpose such as creation of derivative works, reports, performances and research. The intended purpose of public domain laws is to allow for widespread "free" dissemenation of works, NOT to allow for widespread profiteering from them. It's to "keep the work alive for whoever wants it", not "to keep it profitable for whoever can take it". Q.E.D.?????????? I don't think that selling "deluxe" packaging and/or "free" remasterings for what is surely a more than "modest" profit margin is even slightly within the spirit of the law. And if the spirit is being continuously, blatantly, and in a lot of cases, SHAMELESSLY violated, should the letter not be then changed to enforce the spirit? Edited April 29, 2004 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tatifan Posted May 3, 2004 Report Share Posted May 3, 2004 I suppose this is an endless discussion without the possibility of a final answer. One thing I don't understand is how the French "Classics" label is any different -- they are using a variety of sources for their releases, and working from the BEST source is not a priority for them (I'm not saying it is with Proper or Definitive either, whereas JSP at least now makes an effort to steal from the best). I appreciate their effort to organize their material, but I think it's very overpriced (in the US, at least) -- perhaps if THEY put out some reduced price multi-disc sets of older issues I might feel differently. I think the issue is clouded by the fact that their issues ARE high priced, thus they don't undercut legitimate issues in the marketplace like Proper, Definitive & now JSP are doing, taking away profits from the companies that pay engineers to do original transfer work & do the actual legwork to gather rare material from generous collectors. Of course, a vast majority of the material will never be issued by the major labels that currently own the surviving masters and the "rights" to issue them, so I'm not for a moment denying these independant labels the right to issue PD material, just to consider the morality of stealing transfer work. Perhaps these labels don't even know -- I know it has happened when one unscrupulous "engineer" has been hired by a label, and then has merely cloned another's actual work in order to collect a fee!! Untimately a producer has to be blamed for his ignorance of this kind of thing. I can't muster enthusiasm for the arguments about the PD status making it ok to steal someone elses remasterings -- if it's OOP, maybe that's ok. The silent film analogy doesn't even work -- for instance, I have recorded several solo piano scores for some very rare silent films released on DVD recently. The films may be in PD, but that doesn't give other companies the right to copy this version and issue it at half the price. This has happened to my producer, and he HAS been able to sue the offending company. The way they were caught was that the thieves were too stupid to replace the musical score recorded 5 years ago -- that CAN be shown in court -- whereas it is nearly impossible to prove the same with sound recordings and the transfer work done to enable their issue, and the lawmakers aren't really aware of these fine distinctions anyhow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Bresnahan Posted May 3, 2004 Report Share Posted May 3, 2004 A quick question related to this discussion: Isn't it true that most of the EU PD recordings we are discussing here are technically illegal to export to the US? I would think that exporting any of these European PD sets to the US, where they are still held under copyright, is some kind of violation. Not that I think anyone could enforce this. Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montg Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 A quick question related to this discussion: Isn't it true that most of the EU PD recordings we are discussing here are technically illegal to export to the US? I would think that exporting any of these European PD sets to the US, where they are still held under copyright, is some kind of violation. Whoa. I just trolled through the entire nine pages of this thread, going bug eyed in the process, looking for an answer to this very question. Finally, on the last page, the question is posed and...nothing but crickets chirping. Is it legal for Proper, and all the rest, to be sold in the US? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 (edited) It's illegal. Do a search at Tower for Jazz Factory and Definitive(Disconforme labels) labels and see how much Blue Note/Columbia/Mercury/etc. material shows up. As I've said before, the original labels need get a handle on this or it's going to be a mess. The average consumer has no idea what's going on. Edited July 9, 2004 by wolff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montg Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 nprjazz recs This is the part that perplexes me. At the risk of sounding naive, how can these be so widely available in the US if they're illegal. Even our own government encourages us to buy them--sort of...follow the link (above) and check out NPR's reccomendations to buy the Bechet and Hampton Proper boxes, along with other imports of p.d. maerial (Topaz, Prism...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 At the risk of sounding naive, how can these be so widely available in the US if they're illegal. No idea, but it's really sad. I guess it's happening under the radar of the original labels and big retailers. The titles/catalogues from the PD labels must to look great to the big retailers/distributers. It's seems to be the US against the rest of the world, also. What European owned labels are valuable and ready to become PD? Few, if any. The effects of this are endless and all bad, in my view. The average consumer(and even one's who know what's going on) could give a shit as long as he gets his Complete Blue Note Recordings of Miles Davis now, and cheap. Very complicated issue, but it's up to the original labels to do something about it. Simple press releases, ads and stickers on CD's would be a start. The longer they wait the harder it will be to control the snowball effect as more and more albums become PD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajf67 Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 This also brings us back to the issue of what happens to the original tapes? Without a profitable reason for the corporations who own them to care for them anymore, what will become of them? Will these valuable pieces of our culture just dissappear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted July 10, 2004 Report Share Posted July 10, 2004 FWIW, I saw a few of these recently at Jusseau Music in Paris but didn't take the plunge although I sort of wanted to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Moments Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 i missed this thread the first time around but found it when i did a search regarding the "proper boxes" - daedalus is selling a bunch of them. what an excellent discussion! i too am torn by the copyright issue i buy from mosaic, world, cdbaby, chuck, amazon, deepdiscount, cduniverse, maria schneider, djangos and many others. but i also buy from half.com (no new artist royalties generated there!) i haven't bought any proper boxes yet, but i did buy some spanish blue notes from dusty groove 'cause i really wanted to hear the music and it was not available here. and lets face it, $18.99 for a new cd is pretty outrageous. anyway, i am sure the debate will continue---curious that clem deleted all his posts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted August 11, 2005 Report Share Posted August 11, 2005 I believe CDUniverse has about 200+ Proper titles available, also. I'd rather see you get a CDR of the material from a friend than support these guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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