ajf67

I've been reading this thread and the other one in the Politics forum that lead to it, and I just wanted to share a few thoughts for whatever they are worth. First, I want to add my thanks to b3-er for hosting such a great site. I came late to the BNBB and was saddened when it closed down because it was such a fine spot with a lot of experts. The rise of your forum here has filled a void, and it's wonderful to have a place like this to constantly learn more about music from folks who know a lot about it. Second, I would vote that the political forum should stay and that it be uncensored in any way. I rarely go to those forums, and to my knwledge I don't think I have ever posted there (After only a few visits it seemed clear that the discussions became dominated by a few who held very strong beliefs on each given subject. Then, as political discussions/debates almost always do, they developed into parsing each other's comments and replying, often in increasingly heated rhetoric). But, for those who want to go to them, they will only work if they are free outlets. That will mean emotional outbursts are included, and that there will be comments made and photos posted that some find offensive -- but that's what political debate is all about. To use a specific example, I personally didn't find the picture of the injured child to be out-of-bounds in and of itself. I thought it was just the kind of thing that could be helpful to good political discussion. However, I do think that all involved in that particular discussion were focused less on the "understanding and being understood" elements of debate and more on "the other guy's a (jerk) and I'm going to prove it" version of debate. And unfortunately I think that picture was diplayed at least partially with that in mind. It isn't the end of the world if someone disagrees with you or is rude to you on a website. Maybe certain folks should practice a new mantra of "don't take the bait" before entering these rooms. Then maybe they can rise above it and hold back from replying to a hateful response someone has posted, or at least reply in a way that sheds some light on the topic at hand and keeps things from spinning out of control. I'm sure most people reading these posts reach similar conclusions on their own as to who is being a jerk in a given situation and who isn't. So pointing out that a particular person is being rude/wrong/silly/dumb/etc isn't really necessary in the first place. Plus, maybe if enough of us join in the discussions and behave maybe we can re-create the culture of the political forum by our own examples so that bad behavior is increasingly obvious and becomes less tolerated. Emotion and strong feeling about the topics at hand isn't bad, but emotion and stong feeling directed again and again at and between the same old people is pretty boring and completely unenlightening.

Man, those are some great lists. "A Love Supreme" on bagpipes? Yow! My list of notables is an awful lot shorter because I haven't been listening as long and heaven't lived where there are a lot of notable shows. If I lived in NYC it sure would be longer (but I'd never see my girlfriend and I"d be broke from going to shows!). My all-time favorite is still among the first: Milt Jackson at the Blue Note. Milt Jackson (3 times) McCoy Tyner (4 times) J.J. Johnson Stanley Turrentine Lou Donaldson Sonny Rollins James Moody Wallace Roney (twice) Oscar Peterson Buster Williams Joshua Redmon (three times) Billy Taylor (5 times, once with Milt Jackson) Renee Rosnes

Whoops! Just got to the whole other topic further down in this section on the Cadence review. Congrats on a good review and I'll look closer next time.

Check out the new issue of Cadence. You guys are reviewed there as well. I didn't bring it in to work (which is where I am now -- yes, pretending to be working), but I seem to remember the last line being something like "Organ jazz fans, don't miss this one!"

I am actually thinking of going to this, but I have never been to Camden or Wiggins Waterfront Park. (and I've only been to Philly itself a few times). Are concerts there a good experience? I looked at it on Yahoo maps and it does't seem too difficult to get to. What is the "Camden after dark" issue?

I saw Lou w/ Lonnie Smith earlier this year at the Vanguard. What a show. I hope what you are hearing about other NYC shows later this year is true!

I actually think the Goldmine standards could use an update. There is room for a grade called "Excellent" that comes between VG+ and NM, because it seems to me that there is a large enough gap between NM and VG for two condition grades. This would help address the issue of the grades of NM- and VG++. Under a strict reading of the current condition standards, a record listed as NM- or VG++ should probably be VG+, but the grader wants to separate it from other VG+ records that are closer to plain old VG. Personally, when I see VG+, I think "Well, if it's REALLY VG+ that's fine, but if it's earning that grade because it's just a shade above VG then that's not what I'm after. " I suppose this could also be solved by people accurately using the "Good" rating level (which when I see I think "Poor"), but in my experience there has been "Grade Creep" upward.

I can vouch for the Philips red labels from the Netherlands. Those sound great to my ears. I think the most I paid was $4 apiece too.

Coincidence -- I just bought vol 2 and 3 at a used LP store this past weekend, and i was going to start the same thread. I've only listened to vol 2 so far, but the music is great. I think the sound is fine too. They do look awfully like bootlegs though. The cover "art" -- yes, in quotes -- would blow away anything in the 32 Jazz thread that was started elsewhere on this forum for worst album cover.

Hey Clandy, Orpheus is in Clarendon, right near the metro stop on the blue line. Check it out, and tell Rick that Drew sent you. He'll probably laugh and ask if you like jazz... Here's the address: 3173 Wilson Blvd Arlington, VA 703-294-6774 Orpheusrecords.com I forgot to mention Second Story. I have only been to the one in Dupont Circle, where they don't have very many cds or lps, but the ones they do have they sell for pretty cheap. You really need to check the condition there though. I think they have another store in the suburbs sometwhere but I can't remember where.

I love this sale. Really used it last year and just did again and bought the Elvin Jones box. Put the discount toward the Art Ensemble box and can't wait to listen to it.

I'll second, or third, the good advice against buying sealed collectable LPs. I bought two sealed Johnny Cash Lps this weekend (cheap, so worth the risk) and one of them is noisy and warped. You just don't know where and how these things have been stored for the years they've existed, so "sealed" doesn't equate with "new." If it's a few bucks, fine, but nothing major.

Yes, the Verve two-fers are excellent value. I was listening to the Hawkins-Webster one the other night.

Shrugs, Whoops! The greens aren't from the 80s, you are right. Typo on my end. I agree the LPs are a better value than spending for the CD. I only brought it up because of the digital/analog difference. They are definitely worth getting for the money.

Shrugs, You are correct about the early OJCs sounding great. Didn't mean to suggest they didn't. I have a bunch of them on the green label from the 80s and i like them a lot, particularly the two-fers. I was only referring to the new ones for sale on the website, and I only bring it up because if people are going to bother buying the vinyl it should at least be analog (but since the OJCs can be gotten really cheap, by all means people should pick them up -- I don't mean to sound like an audiophile snob!). Also, I wrote that kind of quickly on my way out of work, so forgive the omissions!

Red, I thought I would also reply to your question LP vs CD if the tracks are the same. I would buy the LP (if I were sure it was non-digital), particularly if it were in nice condition, and especially if it were mono. First, analog sound really is better than cd sound the vast majority of the time. Since it isn't compressed to fit into the bit capacity limits of the cd format, there is more of a true sound. The horns ring and the drums snap, etc. I also have found that I prefer the mono mixes on a lot of the albums. It just seems to sound more like a real band is playing in front of me when I listen to them. This is particularly true with some ealry stereo mixes where the separation was extreme (such as having all the piano coming out of the left and all the drums out of the right, etc. Try a Columbia steroe of Thelonious Monk and you will hear this). Everyone doesn't feel this way about mono however, so this is clearly a matter of personal taste. A lot of folks love the multi-channel possibilities of surround sound, for example. I prefer just the two speakers in front of me. See what you like -- at least the research will be fun. Some other condition thughts that may be helpful: Scratches are the obvious thing to look for, particularly those you can feel with your fingernail. But also look around the spindle hole. A lot of marks there means the record was probably played a lot and you may get distortion from groove wear. Groove wear can also be seen as a dulling of the grooves or a greyish tint to the record when held in the light. Often I am amazed at how a record can have few scratches but still sound awful because it's been played a lot. Also check for warping. I have bought records that looked great only to get them home, put them on the turntable and see that they are warped enough that the tonearm won't sit still on them.

Welcome to the world of vinyl! I'll share some quick thoughts before I leave work. I look forward to this thread because I think there are a lot of people here that will be helpful. I don't know where you live, but Shrugs is right, there are some good used shops out there. I have two favorites here in DC, and they are total opposites in terms of how they do business. One has cheaper prices, but is less organized (Joe's Record Paradise) while the other (Orpheus Records) charges more but the condition of the LPs is better and they have a great return policy (basically he lets you return anything you aren't satisfied with condition-wise -- I've rarely made returns but he's always complied). Once you find some stores and buy from them enough you will get an idea of how they grade and what you can expect when you buy there. Like Jazzmoose said, its also good to scout around a bit to get the feel for the market and what you can get for your money. I think the best deals price-wise are still in flea markets, antique malls and garage sales, but they are totally hit or miss and you may go a while before finding a good one. This will leave you in withdrawl until you go back to the record store E-bay can be good, but expect to pay top dollar for anything "collectable," such as early pressing Blue Notes or Prestige. I've bought a lot off E-bay and have generally (but not always) found people to be good followers of the Goldmine grading standards (if you haven't seen a Goldmine Record Guide, go to your bookstore and flip through one to give you an idea of condition ratings, etc). Or maybe someone here has a good link. Start watching some auctions and you'll get an idea. If you don't have to have original pressings, there are plenty of good re-issues that still will let you appreciate the music in its pre-digitized anolog form. Often these can be picked up fairly cheaply. Blue Notes are a good example of this. I have found "Blue Label" pressings of great albums that sound very good but were a fraction of the price of an early copy (blue label Blue Notes were the re-issues of their back catalog that they put out in the early 70s). While not as good as the original pressings, they are still better than the CDs, particularly the "early" cds. Records from the 70s by Prestige, Riverside, Inner City, and many othes you can still find for fairly cheap. As these are definitely pre-digital, they are well worth having. On E-Bay, type in "Lou Donaldson" and you may get an idea of this. You will see original pressing Blue Notes that go in the hundreds of dollars, and then other "Liberty" or "blue label" ones that go for $15 - $25. The one group of LPs that I am still unclear about are the OJC re-issue LPs that were remastered by Phil DeLancie and others. I have never been able to get an answer as to whether or not they are digital or analog masters. I asked this question during the last sale at Mosaic (where you would get a $5.00 credit for every Mosaic LP you bought), and got a reply from Michael Cuscuna that he has asked the same question and has never gotten an answer. He suspected that the popular items (Miles, Trane) were digital masters and perhaps the others were analog. The good thing about the LPs from the 70s is that you know they definitely aren't digital. Anyway, just some thoughts on vinyl. Have fun collecting.

Hello everyone, Like Chaney, I also posted before B-3r and I'm posting from the East Coast (Washington, DC). However, I can assure you that I did not start this. How about the moderator clearing anybody's name who asks to be cleared? I'll start: Please clear my name from this b.s.

Ditto Chaney.

Thanks for posting this unfortunate news. After I saw this post yesterday, I went home and listed to Max Roach's "We Insist!" Freedom Now Suite. If you haven't heard this intense, moving music, I highly recommend it. Side 2 opens with "All Africa", which Abby Lincoln starts with a vocal, then Olatunji kicks in with an extended rythmic piece that is really outstanding. I hadn't listened to this one in a while, and it made me re-appeciate his contribution. RIP.

Thanks!

Speaking of recording live dates, I caught Lou recenty at the Village Vanguard with Lonnie Smith and someone definitely should have been recording that!

My girlfriend and I recently came into a bunch of 78s, and I was wondering what methods some of you have found work best and recommend using to clean them. Although I have a Nitty Gritty that I use (and love) for my LPs, I was looking for a cheaper, manual way of cleaning them. I know I can't use the LP cleaning formula on the 78s.

I voted for Unitas. Marino would be my number 2. I agree that Bradshaw also deserves a high ranking. The guy was a real leader and always came up big in the biggest games. He had one of the best teams around him, true, but when the chips were on the table he delivered. I could watch him throw to Swann and Stallworth all day long.

An interesting side debate on this would be to discuss the best big back of all time, comparing people like Earl Campbell, John Riggins and my sleeper candidate, Jerome Bettis. I think Bettis has now passed both of them in career yardage. During his prime years, I don't think any big back dominated a game like Campbell, but Bettis has been solidly reliable for a longer period, although he did suffer a lingering injury last year. I hope that doesn't spell the end for him, and from what I have been reading he sounds like he reported to mini-camp significantly lighter and in better shape than he has been in a while.