Crouch on Rollins

[JSngry]

Ah, but what seems like waste to the outsider may be very well be self-preservation to the possessor.

It's no secret that what the public wants out of an artist and what an artist wants out of (and for) themselves are often at odds.

As long as Sonny Rollins is going around playing the way he wants to play, I feel quite confident that his talent is being anything but wasted, even if he's doing it in such a way that leaves very little residual evidence other than in the memories of the people who heard him/it in the moment.

Or do you have a problem with greatness not being "documented". I don't, not at all, not if it's by choice. "Documentation" is a relatively recent concept, and not without its own set of conflicts, not the least of which is the games it plays with the egos of those wishing to be documented, and often, by extension, their art. I speak from personal experience, and I'm sure you know what I mean. When we get the notion that the measure of the music is to be found entirely in the documentation, well, that's a pretty subtle yet profound shift in how we view the whole ballgame right there, and I don't buy into it. But that's just me.

[paul secor]

Ah, but what seems like waste to the outsider may be very well be self-preservation to the possessor.

It's no secret that what the public wants out of an artist and what an artist wants out of (and for) themselves are often at odds.

As long as Sonny Rollins is going around playing the way he wants to play, I feel quite confident that his talent is being anything but wasted, even if he's doing it in such a way that leaves very little residual evidence other than in the memories of the people who heard him/it in the moment.

Or do you have a problem with greatness not being "documented". I don't, not at all, not if it's by choice. "Documentation" is a relatively recent concept, and not without its own set of conflicts, not the least of which is the games it plays with the egos of those wishing to be documented, and often, by extension, their art. I speak from personal experience, and I'm sure you know what I mean. When we get the notion that the measure of the music is to be found entirely in the documentation, well, that's a pretty subtle yet profound shift in how we view the whole ballgame right there, and I don't buy into it. But that's just me.

Nice words, and perhaps some truth there, but the fact remains that the man hasn't put out a completely good record in thirty years. All the reports of great playing in a live context may or may not be true be true - those moments exist only in the ears and memories of the listeners who were present - but why document your playing by releasing a long series of mediocre recordings unless you're being willfully perverse and/or have disdain for your record buying audience? Release recordings of the live concerts if they're that good, or don't release any records at all.

[JSngry]

Why all this emphasis on records?

[JSngry]

All the reports of great playing in a live context may or may not be true be true - those moments exist only in the ears and memories of the listeners who were present...

Exactly!

[marcello]

There has been a lot of second guessing of Rollins in his career.

He may not be comfortable in the studio in the last 30 years, he may pander to the masses in order to communicate, he may have made poor choices in sidemen for personal reasons, he may not to release live records with long tracks, he may be insecure/, etc, etc.

The man's 75 years old. The standard that he is held up to is unfair, and in a way, demeaning. He has had to live with that burden since he was 25 years old! It's a wonder he ever leaves home to perform or record. Look, I don't like many of he records for the past 30 years, but most of the time they are interesting, for one reason or another. His records are held up in comparisson to those that were ground breaking and influential. You can't make Saxophone Colossus or Freedom Suite everytime.

Speaking of that; what saxophonist plays with the stamina, ideas and creats such excitement as he? There are artists that are 50 years younger than him that can't keep up or produce like Sonny. Go hear him live; most of the time he gives 100%. Most of the time it's not only a good concert bit a great one by anyone's standard.

Cut the great man some slack. Sometimes, it's enough to be in the same room with greatness, but he gives so much more.

[MartyJazz]

Sometimes the dichotomy between what he does live and what he produces on disc is so great that it can lead to embarrassing moments. Back in the '70s before I was married, I recall going to the Brooklyn Academy of Music to see a play about the life of Billie Holiday. The young rather pretty woman I was dating noticed a tall handsome black man in the corner of the lobby before the play was to begin and said to me "that man over there looks like Sonny Rollins". I took a look and said, "that's him!" and we approached him as we had seen him on at least two occasions in the previous year, each of which was marvelously thrilling. My girlfriend at the time rather lacked for tact, a trait that was more than made up for by the fact that, as stated above, she was very easy on the eyes. So she says to Rollins with great enthusiasm, "We saw you a couple of times this past year and you were so great. Then we got your latest record, what happened?" I immediately searched for a hole to fall into, but he was very gracious in his response to her. Of course if I had come out with a remark/question like that, I would have been fortunate if he simply turned around and walked away.

[7/4]

My girlfriend at the time rather lacked for tact, a trait that was more than made up for by the fact that, as stated above, she was very easy on the eyes. So she says to Rollins with great enthusiasm, "We saw you a couple of times this past year and you were so great. Then we got your latest record, what happened?" I immediately searched for a hole to fall into, but he was very gracious in his response to her. Of course if I had come out with a remark/question like that, I would have been fortunate if he simply turned around and walked away.

But what did he say?!

[AllenLowe]

well, I've seen him in person AND listened to the records - the records (CDs) generally are not worthy of his talent - If you guys think that's OK, than, that's fine. But even in person there is a problem, tinny sound, over-loud acccompaniment. Yes, documentation is important, vital, INCREDIBLY important -

[JSngry]

Why? And for who?

[MartyJazz]

My girlfriend at the time rather lacked for tact, a trait that was more than made up for by the fact that, as stated above, she was very easy on the eyes.  So she says to Rollins with great enthusiasm, "We saw you a couple of times this past year and you were so great.  Then we got your latest record, what happened?"  I immediately searched for a hole to fall into, but he was very gracious in his response to her.  Of course if I had come out with a remark/question like that, I would have been fortunate if he simply turned around and walked away.

But what did he say?!

From memory, I can recall that he basically remarked on the difficulty of creating a live experience in the recording studio, also that a record should introduce newer material than what was generally played in a club and that this issue alone could lead to more uncertainty in terms of listener approval. I certainly didn't present him with any followup questions on that matter, just thanked him for all the joy he had given us and wished him well. As I said, he was very gracious.

[Larry Kart]

Marcello asked: "What saxophonist plays with the stamina, ideas and creates such excitement as he?"

Two that come to mind (mentioned them before here in a slightly different context) are Von Freeman (age 82) and Lee Konitz (age 77). No need to cut either of them any slack. (Yes, if "excitement" means sheer heat, Lee doesn't match up, but listening to him invent is plenty exciting to me.)

Jim S. asked: "Why all this emphasis on records?"

Among other things, how common is it in the history of jazz for there to be an immensely talented artist who made a number of great recordings and then began to make recordings, over the course of almost four decades now, that, allowing for some ebb and flow and differences of taste, are arguably pretty mediocre? Can't we at the least agree, in the name of simple or not so simple human understanding -- and leaving aside deification on the one hand and snarkiness on the other -- that Rollins came to be more than a little hung up on some aspects of being both a human being and a jazz musician, or a professional jazz musician if you prefer, and that if this so. Hasn't he said as much himself? And if this is so, isn't it worth talking and thinking about? Of course, it's not easy being both a human being etc., but name me another jazz musican whose life fits Rollins' pattern, even comes close to it? Wayne? Maybe, up to a point, but not really IMO. Anyone else?

[Christiern]

Back in the days when I was writing a batch of reviews every month, I also spent much time at live performances. Sonny's recordings rarely matched what I had heard in person. I realize that there is a certain something--ambiance, I guess--that inevitably gets lost on recordings, even live ones, but while that may have been a factor, it was, I concluded, a negligible one.

Edited May 8, 2005 by Christiern

[paul secor]

Why all this emphasis on records?

There wouldn't be an emphasis on records if he hadn't continued to release them regularly over the years. It's as simple (and perhaps as complicated) as that.

He's released the recordings and people are going to comment on their quality (or lack of quality). That's the nature of the game.

[AllenLowe]

"Why? And for who?"

well, for me, for you - for anyone who cares about expression, about art (small"a" as I hate that word), who cares about performance and jazz and music and what has come before and what comes after. Otherwise it's just a job, and what's the point if it's only for the money? And if it's only for the money, that's fine, than let's say what it is - and why does anyone write, or record? To document their work, thoughts, ideas -

[marcello]

My girlfriend at the time rather lacked for tact, a trait that was more than made up for by the fact that, as stated a

From memory, I can recall that he basically remarked on the difficulty of creating a live experience in the recording studio, also that a record should introduce newer material than what was generally played in a club and that this issue alone could lead to more uncertainty in terms of listener approval.

Well there you go....

And from Larry Kart:

Can't we at the least agree, in the name of simple or not so simple human understanding -- and leaving aside deification on the one hand and snarkiness on the other -- that Rollins came to be more than a little hung up on some aspects of being both a human being and a jazz musician, or a professional jazz musician if you prefer, and that if this so. Hasn't he said as much himself? And if this is so, isn't it worth talking and thinking about? Of course, it's not easy being both a human being etc., but name me another jazz musican whose life fits Rollins' pattern, even comes close to it?

Well put.

It's tough being Sonny. We will miss him when he's gone; warts ( "Isn't She Lovely", horrible persussionists, and those awful nights when he is just mortal ) and all.

[AllenLowe]

I still think Sonny is God - with a bad rhythm section -

[Christiern]

I still think Sonny is God - with a bad rhythm section -

...and a wretched little microphone.

[JSngry]

Can't we at the least agree, in the name of simple or not so simple human understanding -- and leaving aside deification on the one hand and snarkiness on the other -- that Rollins came to be more than a little hung up on some aspects of being both a human being and a jazz musician, or a professional jazz musician if you prefer, and that if this so. Hasn't he said as much himself? And if this is so, isn't it worth talking and thinking about?

Yes we can, and that (thinking and talking about it) is what I have done. We have reached different conclusions, that's all.

[JSngry]

"Why? And for who?"

well, for me, for you - for anyone who cares about expression, about art (small"a" as I hate that word), who cares about performance and jazz and music and what has come before and what comes after. Otherwise it's just a job, and what's the point if it's only for the money? And if it's only for the money, that's fine, than let's say what it is - and why does anyone write, or record? To document their work, thoughts, ideas -

So the only choices are between playing just for the money or else being concerned/absorbed/obsessed/whatever with documenting one's work in order to "leave a legacy" or some such?

Surely you jest!

[AllenLowe]

so, if you are not playing for the money, and are unconcerned about anything you do or leave behind, what is left?

[JSngry]

so, if you are not playing for the money, and are unconcerned about anything you do or leave behind, what is left?

Surely you jest!

I didn't say anything about not being concerned with "what you do", btw. but there's a lot of different ways to do "what you do" that have little or/to no relevancy with "documentation". What you, as you but it, "leave behind" can be very profound without being "documented" in the traditional (can I say "Western" w/o being drawn into an intellectual/philosophical jargon-battle?) sense.

Mainstream public documentation, as it mostly exists in the jazz world, inevitabley goes hand in hand with commerce to one degree or another, and that inevitably changes, if only subtly, that which it is that is "what you do". To decide to not play that game as an opening strategy is idealistic to the point of naivete, but to come to that conclusion after a long and often tumultuous series of battles seems to me to be another thing altogether.

Is it better to preserve something that is truly sacred to you by leaving it out of the commercial equation as much as possible, or is it better to go ahead and fully include it in the equation in order to play the "legacy" game, no matter what the game eventually does to it? It's a deeply personal question, and anybody who thinks that the answers are simple (or even worse, doesn't see why there should even be a conflict in the first place) obviously doesn't get exactly what the "it" is that is at stake. For some musicians, it's not an issue, and god bless'em. But for some, it's very much an issue. And god bless them too.

I figure that you, Allen, do get it, so again I say - surely you jest!

[AllenLowe]

well, than, let us say that Sonny has decided not to play the game in the conventional sernse, or to worry about legacy or documentation - but what do we see? Sonny in the mainstream, playing concerts, on the cover of Downbeat, winning awards in the company of Oprah, putting out actual CDs - so he has not rejected the mainstream, only come to an unsatisfactory accomodation with it. So, if he is going to go to all the trouble of playing in public, recording, appearing in the media - well, than, he has decided to document his work. So that's no longer the issue, Jim. The issue is whether he does it well or badly. And I think he does it badly -

[Jazzmoose]

Or do you have a problem with greatness not being "documented". I don't, not at all, not if it's by choice. "Documentation" is a relatively recent concept, and not without its own set of conflicts, not the least of which is the games it plays with the egos of those wishing to be documented, and often, by extension, their art. I speak from personal experience, and I'm sure you know what I mean. When we get the notion that the measure of the music is to be found entirely in the documentation, well, that's a pretty subtle yet profound shift in how we view the whole ballgame right there, and I don't buy into it. But that's just me.

Ah, but as Allen points out, Rollins is not avoiding documentation; he still releases recordings. I'll gladly admit that I'm speaking out of ignorance in this discussion, as I am not a musician, but there just seems to be something dishonest about releasing second rate work. Of all genres of music, I guess jazz is the one area where that is least bothersome; after all, the recording is most definitely the slave to the live performance in jazz, but still...

As for the commercial aspect, I can understand that. My first reaction was that Rollins (or anyone else) doesn't have to choose to have their work released by a major company; surely a small independent would be willing to record and release his work entirely on his terms. But then that would probably be as corrupting to the independent as a major company would be corrupting to the artist. If that makes any sense at all...

edited to add...

By the way, I know I'm over my head in this conversation; just ignore me if it's too painfully embarrassing...

Edited May 8, 2005 by Jazzmoose

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Yes, Allen - Sonny *is* playing the game. I am reminded of the film Saxophone Colossus. At one point the holy trinity of Giddins, Gitler, and Davis talk about St. Rollins and the point is made, "now that he and Lucille are producing the records themsevles, the records *are* getting better" - as if the producers (does this specifically mean Orrin Keepnews?) had been the culprits. But the self-produced records weren't any better, were they? The only one I really went for was "G-Man" because of that film.

And I can't imagine that Milestone is going to argue with Sonny Rollins at this point - what he puts out is the result of his decisions. Milestone isn't a major label like Sony or BMG.

Mike

Edited May 8, 2005 by Michael Fitzgerald

[Christiern]

Of course the recordings weren't getting better, Mike. You can be sure that the ones he did for Milestone were also produced by him. Beyond manning the stopwatch and keeping the recording sheets, Orrin simply does not take on the role of producer in the studio. At least I have never seen him assert himself there, which is why I have always been convinced that he knew he had a tin ear.