Crouch on Rollins

[AllenLowe]

yes - babys, most of them - especially that generation - I hate to say this, but I think these "dilemmas" reflect a striking lack of life understanding, for want of a better phrase - a well know record producer once said to me that the only jazz musician that he'd ever met who was a "grownnup" was Al Cohn - and this guy really knew everybody. I think Rollins is a complicated guy, another of those geniuses whose personal immaturity is striking when compared to his artistic accomplishments - though, I might add, it caught up with him in these post-1970s years, when it just amplified and and complicated his own lack of direction - I know this sounds harsh, but I really feel this is true of Sonny.

[JSngry]

There is a quote in Crouch's piece that poignantly sums up Rollins' dilemma (or one of them -- and while it's not a problem that's unique to him among jazz musicians, well...):

"...I never really liked being a bandleader, because if things didn't sound good, all the disappointment fell on me. At the same time, I couldn't be the real Sonny unless I was leading the band. So it was a riddle I couldn't solve, and I don't think I solved it for a long time. Now, even though I still don't really like it, they have my name up there and I have to show up and call the tunes and lead the musicians I've hired to play with me."

Reading between the lines, this speaks volumes, I think, especially when it's placed alongside Rollins' memories of working with Clifford Brown: "He didn't try to mislead you and stunt your growth like some of the competitive guys out there. Being around him lifted me up completely. Near the end, we got that unified sound you almost never hear -- there was no saxophone, no trumpet."

To coin (or modify) a phrase, jazz musicians are just like everyone else only more so.

I think there's a 1972(?) interview in Down Beat where Rollins expresses much the same feelings about bandleading, and he backdates his feelings to the mid-1960s.

[marcello]

And on a related note does anyone else think rollins may have avoided playing with Lee Morgain cause he was too close to Clifford, or am I just projecting?

You may very well be projecting but it got me thinking...... besides Don Cherry, is there any other trumpet player that Sonny had in his bands for any length of time?

Maybe you're on to a little something there as Don Cherry is the polar opposite of Clifford Brown. So maybe if he was going to share his music with another trumpet player, there could be no reminder of Clifford?

[jlhoots]

Then or now, I don't think that William Parker & Sonny Rollins would be a good fit.

Maybe so, but he did O.K. with Henry Grimes & Wilbur Ware(IMHO, of course).

[JSngry]

Did GREAT with Grimes & Ware.

But that was Grimes & Ware...

[Chuck Nessa]

In the mid '60s I had contact with Rollins via a third party and suggested a project. I wanted to do a trio session with Wilbur Ware and Blakey (or Pete LaRoca). Sonny's response (related back to me) was discomfort in recording situations. I responded with "no time limits (within reason - meaning I'd ignore union 3 hour rules)" and offered the (new at the time) clip mike on the horn.

He never responded (as far as I know).

[MartyJazz]

Good quote Larry, but I don't think Sonny's prob is even unique to jazz; I think Clapton and Beck have spent most of their careers either trying to solve or to ignore this riddle. Clapton recently squared his circle at the Albert Hall, maybe Rollins will too, but who's left for him to do that with? And on a related note does anyone else think rollins may have avoided playing with Lee Morgain cause he was too close to Clifford, or am I just projecting?

I can hear Clifford in Donald Byrd's playing and Sonny made a terrific record with him (Sonny Rollins, Vol. 1 - Blue Note). I think by the time Lee really hit his stride, Sonny had become a leader in which for many years he would be the sole horn whether in a trio or a quartet context. One exception however - he did make one half of an LP with Freddie Hubbard (another Clifford influenced trumpeter) alongside him as late as 1966 (East Broadway Rundown - Impulse).

[Michael Fitzgerald]

And he took Hubbard out on the road with him for several months in 1959. While in Chicago, Freddie had his ass kicked by Ira Sullivan.

Here's some of the trumpeters who worked with Rollins over the course of the 1950s and 1960s: Sonny also used Byrd on live gigs in 1957. Thad Jones was involved in a couple of recording sessions in 1964, some issued, some not. The mysterious Reshid Kmal Ali made the Japanese tour in 1963. Charles Tolliver played with SR at the Vanguard in early 1966. There are more. But none seemed to really fit, I guess.

Mike

[JSngry]

He did an album w/Roy Hargrove.

[Larry Kart]

Thinking again about Rollins' riddle or dilemma, two of the top three (or five or whatever) greatest living saxophonists come to mind -- Von Freeman and Lee Konitz. Knowing or knowing about them as people to some extent, and knowing to some extent how they worked out over time (and not without difficulty) their relationship to playing the music in ways that worked for them and for us (and also that how they worked that out is pretty much built into their music), it seems all the more remarkable that anyone ever figures these things out and pulls them off.

Al Cohn was at the Cafe Monmartre in Copenhagen, and between sets a Danish acquaintance suggested that Al sample the potent local brew Elephant Beer. "No, man," said Al. "I drink to forget."

[AllenLowe]

Reading Larry's last post, I'm thinking I shouldn't be too self-righteous about Rollins efforts these last thirty years. As a a parallel, there are certain writers who found the writing process torturous, and who consequently did not turn out a lot of work (thinking, eg, Isaac Babel) - what frustrates me about Rollins is his real lack of self-insight on this. On the other hand, thinking of Jim Hall's comparison of watching Sonny work to watching Picasso paint is illuminating - some people can turn 'em out, others cannot - but on the OTHER hand it would be nice if Sonny would say, at some point, enough PRODUCT - and let's just produce some PROJECTS -just my opinion, but my perspective is informed as a serious musician who has always had to work other jobs to live, and play/record music on the side. So when I see someone who has such absolute artistic/financial control over their career, and it seems as though they have squandered certain opportunities, it appears, to me, to be wasteful -

Edited May 6, 2005 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

On the other hand,

[AllenLowe]

and there ought to be some kind of legislation to outlaw that stupid little microphone he uses - as a matter of fact, I think I'll call my congressman today -

[chris]

And he took Hubbard out on the road with him for several months in 1959. While in Chicago, Freddie had his ass kicked by Ira Sullivan.

[JSngry]

it would be nice if Sonny would say, at some point, enough PRODUCT - and let's just produce some PROJECTS...when I see someone who has such absolute artistic/financial control over their career, and it seems as though they have squandered certain opportunities, it appears, to me, to be wasteful -

Oh god, no, NOT more "projects". I HATE "projects". You create "special" music for a "special" occasion/event/session, whatever, and then what? Back to whatever you were doing beforehand. It's about as non-organic a concept of music as there is, I think, no matter how spectacular some of the results have been. Cecil & Max? GREAT freakin' project, and great music as a result. But other than an helluva great album, what's left of it?

I'd hardly call leading a working band, no matter the whos and whats, for over 30 years now squandering one's opportunities, nor would I say that of placing one's self in the position to pretty much call one's own shots in terms of work scheduling and recording. If anything, given the realities of the jazz economy over that period, I'd call that capitalizing on one's opportunities, at least in terms of having control over your own life, which I truly suspect goes quite a ways towards the root of many of thee "questionable" decisions.

Bandleading is a pain in the ass, period. Doesn't matter who you got working for you. I'd think that if I was Rollins, I'd reach a point in my life where what I'd be looking for in a road unit is cats who just don't get in my way, period, personally or musically. You've reached the point where you can play waht you want to play with or without assistance of anything other than internal inspiration, right? So why get tangles up in all the non-musical bandleading hassles when you can do what you want to do without them? Besides, you make a spectacular record or two with a bunch of heavyweights, then you can't get them out on the road for any length of time, and then what? A lot of energy, hype, and, probably, personal aggrevation for what? Fame? Glory? Personal accomplishment? Hell, you already GOT that. Besides, what's any of that got to do with playing the tenor?

And as far as records go, this is a guy, remember, who more than once caused a great deal of stir because of his records, and apparently, the stir was not to his liking. So, look at it like this - you're Sonny Rollins, you've got a reputation of mythical proportions to live up to, you love playing but not necessarily bandleading, and you're spooked as hell about recording, both the process itself and the public/critical reaction afterwards. Whatcha' gonna do to keep your life where you want it to be?

I'd say you do pretty much what he's done - get a band that doesn't get in his way, and make records that keep the name in the public but don't cause any kind of a stir, and save the real shit for where it really counts - playing in the moment of a gig, where you're playing for (and in) the moment, nothing else matters, and you only have to live with the triumphs (and failures) until the next downbeat.

I could be wrong, but it makes perfect sense to me. It only doesn't make sense if you think in "typical" terms of "career", "legacy" and shit like that, which ultimately, in some form or fashion, means relenquishing control of your life to forces that may or may not be what you really want out of your life. That Rollins has found a way to have it his way in this most personal of regards is no small triumph, I should think. Very few people in any walk of life have been able to do this.

I'd say that Sonny's found a way to stay on the bridge (and all that implies) w/o having to retire from public life. More power to him.

Edited May 6, 2005 by JSngry

[JSngry]

and there ought to be some kind of legislation to outlaw that stupid little microphone he uses - as a matter of fact, I think I'll call my congressman today -

Dude, you're beginning to sound like you're Clem & Sonny's Francis Davis!

[JSngry]

And he took Hubbard out on the road with him for several months in 1959. While in Chicago, Freddie had his ass kicked by Ira Sullivan.

I'm thinking that the ass-kicking was of the musical type only.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

At least the other kind of ass kicking didn't cost two-fifty.........

Mike

[AllenLowe]

well, Jim, I wouldn't say that a MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR artist who goes 30 years without making a decent record, who carries around mediocre sidemen usually unworthy of association with him, to be successful - yes, he's made a living, but so have I - and I ain't Sonny Rollins. And by PROJECT I mean recordings made with purpose and direction - like a serious writer writes a novel, like a serious filmmaker makes a film (Sonny should be our Antonioni) - these are all seriously lacking in Sonny for the last 3 decades -

[Larry Kart]

As I think that Rollins quote implies (and it's something I've thought and written about before), there's something about being a jazz musician that at a certain point began not to work for Rollins (and in ways that were hard not to hear). Not that "something about being a jazz musician" means that there's one thing involved here that's more or less the same for everyone, but the act of standing up there as an improvising soloist in "one" (as they say in the theater world) is a very stressful and, for some, very rewarding act, even a lifelong life-defining one; for others though the stresses come to far outweigh the rewards, though that implies it's a balancing act, when what I have in mind is more a setup in which you can function and that functions for you -- in the sense that the deepest, best strains in you are consistently enough expressed and realized. It's no accident BTW that the music of both Rollins and Wayne Shorter IMO at times came to brilliantly express (even to be about expressing) significant doubts about the act of standing up there as an improvising soloist in "one."

[JSngry]

Well, all I can say is that there's a huge difference between being a jazz musician and being a professional jazz musician. That "p-word" has the potential, often delivered, of messing a lot of things up, and at some pretty basic levels.

It's a dilemma, no doubt, and Rollins seems, to me, to have found a method that lets him have it both ways - a good, solid career and a preservation of the love for "pure" music that he no doubt feels deeper than the need for any "career moves" (when Pete & I saw him on CNN after the 9/11 attacks, this old guy who made sure that if he didn't have anything else with him, he still had his tenor, we both just laughed out loud).

It may or may not be right to say that Sonny's kost (or probably more accurately, gone through periods of losing) the enthusiasm for the "professional" aspects of being a jazz musician. But good lord, I don't see any way that anybody can say that he's lost the love of playing the music. There's a huge difference between the two, and one should not confuse them.

[JSngry]

(Sonny should be our Antonioni)

Why? Whose needs does that fulfill?

[MartyJazz]

On the other hand,

And then again, when my brother (a newkophile like myself) heard THE WAY I FEEL album so many years ago, he said, "he must feel like shit".

[JSngry]

I was tempted to send a get-well card myself!

[AllenLowe]

it doesn't matter whose needs it may fulfill, Jim. It's just the obligation of talent, IMHO - which is not to waste itself -