Intregrated Amp, Speaker Recommendations

[Peter]

My NAD receiver (about 15 years old) has been acting up and in need of replacing. I drive 3 pairs of Polk in-wall speakers, 1 pair of outdoor B&Ws and 1 pair of B&W CDMs. I'm also looking to replace the CDMs cause they've never had enough tweeter for me and also now the tweeters cut in and out. All speaker are also about 15 years old. Am looking for recommendations to replace the NAD and CDMs. And I'm on a budget! Your thoughts please? Am especially interested in an inexpensive simple 2 channel power source. Thanks!

[Scott Dolan]

You may want to more clearly define "budget".

[Peter]

Under $1K for for each.

[sonnyhill]

It is just a bit over 1K, but I would check out the Blue Circle CS. It is solid state. The web address is here. It is now listed at $1465 -- I bought mine a few years ago for about $1200. Very musical, and, unless you have speakers that are very difficult to drive, has all the power that you need at 50w/channel. Handmade and worth every penny. You can find them on Audiogon once in a while for about $900. I do not like to use the term "tube-like" to describe solid state products, so I'll say that the CS has a much richer sound tonally than most solid state gear that you might come across.

I sold mine to go to tube separates, but I wish that I had held onto it.

Edited January 25, 2007 by sonnyhill

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I drive 3 pairs of Polk in-wall speakers, 1 pair of outdoor B&Ws and 1 pair of B&W CDMs.

All at once? I hope you're using a good speaker box! The Polks alone would load your amp down with a 2.7 Ohm load. Add in the other two, and you're talking a 1.6 Ohm load (assuming all of the speakers are 8 Ohm). Most amps would burn out driving a 1.6 Ohm load.

Assuming you have a good speaker selector box, if you're looking for good, two-channel receivers, try Denon, Onkyo or Outlaw Audio. The Outlaw Audio is a nice unit.

[tonym]

I recently bought some gear and started off looking at around those figures. From what I heard the Rega Apollo CD player and Brio 3 integrated amp were the best bet. I think you can get the Rega R3 speaker (floorstander) for around the same £450 ish.

They were a lot better in my opinion than similarly priced Arcam, Rotel and Nad kit; upfront, brighter, more detailed etc.

The Roksan Kandy range were also very good but didn't have the same build quality as the Rega.

Good luck.

[riverrat]

Some may scoff at this suggestion, but if it were me I'd buy an amp from the golden age of audio gear- the late 70's to early 80's- and have it refurbed with some new caps.

I prefer Kenwood and Sansui amps. You could probably find a Sansui AU-919 for ~$300, put another $200 into it to get it running better than new. VERY conservatively rated at 100wpc of very clean power, plenty to drive multiple sets of speakers, and build quality you will not find today for under $2000.

Going this route would allow you to spend more on speakers which will give you the best sound for the money.

[Dig'Em]

One other consideration. Do you envision yourself using a turntable? If so, you may want to consider an integrated device with the 'phono' input - MC or MM or both. You can always add an external step-up later, but you mention 'budget'...

[riverrat]

One other consideration. Do you envision yourself using a turntable? If so, you may want to consider an integrated device with the 'phono' input - MC or MM or both. You can always add an external step-up later, but you mention 'budget'...

Another reason to go with a "vintage" amp. The aforementioned Sansui has both MC and MM phono stages.

BTW it sold for $800 new in 1979.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

One other consideration. Do you envision yourself using a turntable? If so, you may want to consider an integrated device with the 'phono' input - MC or MM or both. You can always add an external step-up later, but you mention 'budget'...

Another reason to go with a "vintage" amp. The aforementioned Sansui has both MC and MM phono stages.

BTW it sold for $800 new in 1979.

If you don't want to go vintage, Denon's and Outlaw's two-channel receivers have phono inputs.

Peter, if you're considering vintage gear, why not just bring your old NAD into the shop for a tune up?

[J Larsen]

I auditioned much more expensive amps, but am perfectly happy with my Rotel 1062. It is something like $700 or $800. It also has a phono stage.

Good speakers for under $1K is more of a challenge, in my experience.

[Peter]

I wasn't considering vinage gear, but I saw a pair of Klipsch KG4s for $350. My brother-in-law has had a pair for years & I've always envied him. Used to crank up the Grateful Dead on those when he wasn't around. Never heard acoustic jazz on them though. Seriously thinking about the Rotel 1062 and Paradigm Monitor 7 or 9.

[Sundog]

Seriously thinking about the Rotel 1062

Before you pull that trigger take close look at Outlaw Audio's 2 channel receiver ($599). It's got a great mix of useful features including a USB input, phono section, ipod jack, and their award winning bass managent circuitry (especially useful if you want to add a sub). To my ears Rotel's equipment has always been rather harsh and clinical sounding (of course that's just my opinion).

Don't be turned off by the fact that Outlaw's equipment is available exclusively online. These guys make a high quality, bang for your buck product, and really care about good sound. Their customer service is a model for the industry. Good luck and happy shopping!

[J Larsen]

Seriously thinking about the Rotel 1062

To my ears Rotel's equipment has always been rather harsh and clinical sounding (of course that's just my opinion).

I can see an argument being made for "clinical" depending on how you define it, but not with harsh. My system is very pleasing to my ears and those of even my most brutally honest guests - though that could have to do with its interactions with my speakers (B&W 704) and cd player (NAD C542).

Never heard an Outlaw system, but I have heard good things. I just have a hard time buying without auditioning.

[Sundog]

Seriously thinking about the Rotel 1062

To my ears Rotel's equipment has always been rather harsh and clinical sounding (of course that's just my opinion).

I can see an argument being made for "clinical" depending on how you define it, but not with harsh. My system is very pleasing to my ears and those of even my most brutally honest guests - though that could have to do with its interactions with my speakers (B&W 704) and cd player (NAD C542).

Never heard an Outlaw system, but I have heard good things. I just have a hard time buying without auditioning.

Ok, let me restate...

"clinical bordering on harsh" with certain other components in the signal path"

FWIW, I bought mine on a leap of faith and 15 months later don't regret my decision. Outlaw's return policy is quite fair. I believe you have 30 days to audition. The only stipulation is you have to pay for the return freight (about $35 bucks on average in the continental US).

[T.D.]

I'd characterize the Rotel sound as "bright". I like it in some system configurations, and dislike it in others. In general, I prefer "warm" to "bright" setups, but don't claim it's anything more than personal taste. However, I'm currently listening to a system with an old Rotel RA-971 IA, and enjoy it.

[Peter]

I checked out the Outlaw Audio website and some reviews. I'm intrigued. Would the RR2150 handle all the speakers I have (3 pair polk inwall, one pair B&W ourdoor & one pair B&W CDMs). What charactoristics should I look for in an amp for all these speakers? Thanks.

Edited February 1, 2007 by Peter

[Sundog]

The Outlaw can drive up to 4 speakers at once A,B, and A+B options.

You can decouple the amp trom the preamp, so theoretically you could drive all those speakers at once if you added a multi channel amp. Not sure it that's what your looking to do?

If your worried about satisfactorily driving higher end speakers it's not really an issue if they are reasonably efficient. I recently auditioned some B&W 803D's though this receiver using a Rega Apollo CD player as a source. I also auditioned the same 803D's using a Classe integrated amp and Ayre CD player. Sorry, don't remember the models numbers. The point being the second set up was considerably more expensive than the Outlaw/Apollo set up. I also, did different combinations mixing and matching all the above mentioned gear. My conclusion was the Outlaw was perfectly capable of driving those B&W's in an extremely pleasing manner at least to my ears. It's an extremely good receiver. Not sure if it will meet all your requirements speaker-wise, but it's a kick-ass little over achiever any you slice it.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I checked out the Outlaw Audio website and some reviews. I'm intrigued. Would the RR2150 handle all the speakers I have (3 pair polk inwall, one pair B&W ourdoor & one pair B&W CDMs). What charactoristics should I look for in an amp for all these speakers? Thanks.

Peter, I asked above but it's key to know if you plan to drive all of those speakers at the same time. The load all of those speakers would present is very low unless you have some of the wired in series and some in parallel. However, I have never been a fan of speakers connected in series. There is noise added by each speaker in the chain.

Kevin

[Peter]

In most cases running 1 or 2 pair. For a dinner party might run 3 pair. For the annual St. Patrick's Day party may run 5 pairs. Have never had a problem in 15 years. Of course I don't crank them up like I used to in my youth.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

In most cases running 1 or 2 pair. For a dinner party might run 3 pair. For the annual St. Patrick's Day party may run 5 pairs. Have never had a problem in 15 years. Of course I don't crank them up like I used to in my youth.

How do you "run 5 pairs"? Do you simply twist all 5 wires together and stick them into one terminal or do you run the + to speaker 1 and the - of speaker 1 to the + of speaker 2 etc?

If you want to do a set-up like that right, you should look into a speaker switch box. It's been years since I looked into one, but Niles used to make a decent, inexpensive speaker box.

If you're going to drive 5 parallel pairs of speakers out of an amp designed to drive 2, don't be surprised if it fries. If you've been doing that for 15 years with your NAD, it definitely makes sense to bring that amp into a service shop and get it fixed. It's a good one.

[.:.impossible]

Couldn't he just have his main pair going into speaker a, a speaker selector going into speaker b, and the remaining four pair going into that speaker selector?

[Peter]

In most cases running 1 or 2 pair. For a dinner party might run 3 pair. For the annual St. Patrick's Day party may run 5 pairs. Have never had a problem in 15 years. Of course I don't crank them up like I used to in my youth.

How do you "run 5 pairs"? Do you simply twist all 5 wires together and stick them into one terminal or do you run the + to speaker 1 and the - of speaker 1 to the + of speaker 2 etc?

If you want to do a set-up like that right, you should look into a speaker switch box. It's been years since I looked into one, but Niles used to make a decent, inexpensive speaker box.

If you're going to drive 5 parallel pairs of speakers out of an amp designed to drive 2, don't be surprised if it fries. If you've been doing that for 15 years with your NAD, it definitely makes sense to bring that amp into a service shop and get it fixed. It's a good one.

The pairs of wires are twisted together. This was all professionally installed by Audio Emporium, THE high end audio store in the Milwaukee area.

Edited February 3, 2007 by Peter

[Kevin Bresnahan]

In most cases running 1 or 2 pair. For a dinner party might run 3 pair. For the annual St. Patrick's Day party may run 5 pairs. Have never had a problem in 15 years. Of course I don't crank them up like I used to in my youth.

How do you "run 5 pairs"? Do you simply twist all 5 wires together and stick them into one terminal or do you run the + to speaker 1 and the - of speaker 1 to the + of speaker 2 etc?

If you want to do a set-up like that right, you should look into a speaker switch box. It's been years since I looked into one, but Niles used to make a decent, inexpensive speaker box.

If you're going to drive 5 parallel pairs of speakers out of an amp designed to drive 2, don't be surprised if it fries. If you've been doing that for 15 years with your NAD, it definitely makes sense to bring that amp into a service shop and get it fixed. It's a good one.

The pairs of wires are twisted together. This was all professionally installed by Audio Emporium, THE high end audio store in the Milwaukee area.

Peter, by capitalizing "THE", I assume you are implying that they are the best and wouldn't do something wrong. I would disagree. I bet if you read any amplifier owner's manual, it would not recommend this at all. Most amplfiers have been designed to drive a minimum of 4 Ohms.

I would never do this. I should think that Audio Emporium should not have either. They should have recommended a speaker selector box. Maybe they didn't sell one so they ignored your problem?

[J Larsen]

I've been told that my Rotel amp is too bright, that my speakers lack bass, that my cd player is so-so, and that my interconnects and speaker cable are overpriced, but DAMN my system sounds good to me and all who have been over to hear it... not saying anyone doesn't know what they are talking about, but this sort of thing largely comes down to 1) what you like and 2) what you are used to. I'm not even trying to say that their are or aren't "right" and "wrong" in this area (I think we can all agree on certain "wrongs," for instance), just that these things are really complex and unfortunately you ultimately just have to hook everything up and see if you like the sound or not. I guess this is a fairly trivial and useless statement that belongs in the "drunk" thread if anywhere, but I've spent the energy typing it out so I guess I won't delete it now.