MLB Hot Stove League 2012-13

[alocispepraluger102]

the important thing is that baseball has finally entered the 20th century. the legendary bullpen phone will be ditched for an official cellphone. one can only speculate on the millions a cellphone company or 2 will pay for the new privilege.

Edited January 10, 2013 by alocispepraluger102

[vajerzy]

One day I think they all should get in- the next day I think they shouldn't.

I believe Bonds, Clemens, Sosa and others took performance enhancing drugs- I believe they're all cheaters. You will not convince me otherwise. Ever. But I have no proof.

Rickey Henderson is in the HOF- and I believe he did steroids and other performance enhancing drugs. I never see his name linked to this.

But what about the ones who took methamphetamines- that was performance enhancing. I believe there is some of them in the HOF.

What a conundrum.

[Matthew]

One day I think they all should get in- the next day I think they shouldn't.

I believe Bonds, Clemens, Sosa and others took performance enhancing drugs- I believe they're all cheaters. You will not convince me otherwise. Ever. But I have no proof.

Rickey Henderson is in the HOF- and I believe he did steroids and other performance enhancing drugs. I never see his name linked to this.

But what about the ones who took methamphetamines- that was performance enhancing. I believe there is some of them in the HOF.

What a conundrum.

The methamphetamines are a major problem, and everyone knew about them since 1970, when Jim Bouton wrote openly about them in Ball Four. Completely off topic, but I remember how cool I thought that book was when I read it at 13, it was one of the funniest and most interesting book I'd ever read (of course at 13, what did I know...)

[Neal Pomea]

Not sure speed was performance enhancing in a manner comparable to steroids. Not sure. Seems more like a truck driver's drug to deal with travel woes than something to give you an edge. I can't imagine travel was as comfortable in the 50s and 60s as today.

I'd like to know more about Doc Ellis and LSD! That's some kind of enhancement!!!

When you see a list of players who did NOT make the HOF on the first ballot, it's amazing! Cy Young, Eddie Collins, Nap Lajoie, Joe DiMaggio, Yogi Berra, Whitey Ford, Jimmie Foxx! and others. It's no slight at all to Biggio, or Piazza, or Schilling if this is his first year.

[alocispepraluger102]

many of my baseball friends are weary of the argument; most feel that the most successful 'roid users will eventually be in the hall.

how many asterisks will we need in our hallowed hall? there will be rooms and asterisks for players of the nonblack era, the 'roid era, and whatever inevitable water soluble stimulants will be, etc.

Edited January 10, 2013 by alocispepraluger102

[PHILLYQ]

One day I think they all should get in- the next day I think they shouldn't.

I believe Bonds, Clemens, Sosa and others took performance enhancing drugs- I believe they're all cheaters. You will not convince me otherwise. Ever. But I have no proof.

Rickey Henderson is in the HOF- and I believe he did steroids and other performance enhancing drugs. I never see his name linked to this.

But what about the ones who took methamphetamines- that was performance enhancing. I believe there is some of them in the HOF.

What a conundrum.

I have no proof one way or the other, but Henderson was always known to workout religously and he took care of his body. I don't think he was ever a drinker or carouser. IIRC, he also didn't have any odd spikes in performance that would indicate PED use.

[Tim McG]

The sporting press who vote for the HOF are COMPLETLY clueless and display a penchant for pointless hate. They are either a bunch of weeny whiners who never played the game or are the towel boys of the baseball world. If Bonds and Clemons don't get into the HOF, the HOF is a sham, a travesty and a bad joke on those of us who are fans.

In short: FUCK the sports writers. They all need a collective diaper change or a swift kick in the ass.

I am amazed at the arrogance.

[My apologies for the bold face, I am not allowed to change it for some BIZARRE reason...Google sucks]

[vajerzy]

PhillyQ- that's true, good point.

I've read convincing arguments for voting them in- and not voting them in. When determining HOF eligibility, I look at how someone did during their playing career and compare their numbers with their peers during that time. It does get weary discussing it.

[alocispepraluger102]

the print media (baseball writers of america)has total control of the balloting.

[Brad]

I expected Goody's response and would have been surprised had it been otherwise.

However, they made the right decision on Baroid, Clemens and Sosa and bssed on their low total may never get in. Regarding Bagwell and Piazza there are only whispers and suspicions so I would have put them in. Considering their vote total, they may get admission in a couple of years.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Brad

[Matthew]

I expected Goody's response and would have been surprised had it been otherwise.

However, they made the right decision on Baroid, Clemens and Sosa and bssed on their low total may never get in. Regarding Bagwell and Piazza there are only whispers and suspicions so I would have put them in. Considering their vote total, they may get admission in a couple of years.

Why should Bonds, Clemens and Sosa be punished for something that MLB encouraged them to do? Even when Bonds was going after Aaron's homerun record, Selig did nothing, absolutely nothing about these players, other than to make sure the baseball made all the money it could off of them. When McGwire & Sosa were doing their homerun chase after the labor strike, they were commended and hailed for "saving baseball", and McGwire was very open about what he was taking at the time, I remember reading articles about it at the time. So, I'm sorry, but for me, it doesn't make any sense to punish players, especially when nothing has been prove through testing, or even in the courts. I'm not saying that these three and many others did not take PED's, I'm saying that MLB turned it's back on the problem, and did nothing. Or another way to say all this: If these three are out of the Hall of Fame, then MLB better make damn sure that Bud Selig doesn't get in either!

[Brad]

One thing to remember is that the Hall of Fame is separate from MLB, different organziations, so it's not as if they're being punished twice by the same organization for the the same infraction. The Hall of Fame is making a statement that these people, at least at this point, because of their ties. alleged or not, are not fit to be in the Hall. We can argue this until the cows come home but that's the position they're taking. I think they made the right decision, you and others may think it's the wrong decision but that's the decision, at least at this time.

You can argue that Bonds should get in at some point because his pre-steroid or inflated numbers were HOF caliber so at some point he should get in. However, I don't see the same for Roger or Sosa.

[Dan Gould]

When McGwire & Sosa were doing their homerun chase after the labor strike, they were commended and hailed for "saving baseball", and McGwire was very open about what he was taking at the time, I remember reading articles about it at the time.

Sorry Matthew but you are way off base on this. During that historic chase, a single solitary reporter took note of a bottle that was visible in McGuire's locker, I can't recall the name but I do remember that it was found to be a "steroid pre-cursor", adno something maybe?

Anyway - McGuire got indignant about it and this writer got his ass handed to him by every other writer who said he was pissing on the parade.

Also if McGuire was so open about 'what he was taking at the time' why did he essentially take the Fifth when he testified before Congress?

[Matthew]

When McGwire & Sosa were doing their homerun chase after the labor strike, they were commended and hailed for "saving baseball", and McGwire was very open about what he was taking at the time, I remember reading articles about it at the time.

Sorry Matthew but you are way off base on this. During that historic chase, a single solitary reporter took note of a bottle that was visible in McGuire's locker, I can't recall the name but I do remember that it was found to be a "steroid pre-cursor", adno something maybe?

Anyway - McGuire got indignant about it and this writer got his ass handed to him by every other writer who said he was pissing on the parade.

Also if McGuire was so open about 'what he was taking at the time' why did he essentially take the Fifth when he testified before Congress?

According to Baseball's Steroid Era, the reason why McGwire "took the Fifth":

Representative Tom Davis told the AP that McGwire admitted using steroids behind closed doors before the congressional hearing in 2005. McGwire tried to secure immunity, but after it was denied McGwire chose not to address "the past."

Can't blame a guy for wanting to stay out of jail, and IMHO, the congressional hearing were a joke.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Matthew

[Matthew]

Interesting article that brings up a number of points that I agree with.

The voters have spoken: No living soul will be inducted into the Hall of Fame this year.

The announcement that no players from this year's Hall of Fame ballot netted the 75 percent vote needed to gain enshrinement has triggered outrage in baseball circles, and will surely bring more of the same for the Hall and the people of Cooperstown. With the Pre-Integration Committee inducting three people into the Hall who've been dead for decades, upstate New York can look forward to something it hasn't seen in half a century: a Hall of Fame induction with no living inductees to honor. That's scary news for an institution that lost more than $2 million in 2011 and has posted losses in eight of the past 10 years.

The voting members of the Baseball Writers Association of America's inability to elect even one player into the Hall has raised one big question: Should the BBWAA be stripped of its voting power? Go through the long list of flaws in the process, and you start to wonder.

[Dan Gould]

When McGwire & Sosa were doing their homerun chase after the labor strike, they were commended and hailed for "saving baseball", and McGwire was very open about what he was taking at the time, I remember reading articles about it at the time.

Sorry Matthew but you are way off base on this. During that historic chase, a single solitary reporter took note of a bottle that was visible in McGuire's locker, I can't recall the name but I do remember that it was found to be a "steroid pre-cursor", adno something maybe?

Anyway - McGuire got indignant about it and this writer got his ass handed to him by every other writer who said he was pissing on the parade.

Also if McGuire was so open about 'what he was taking at the time' why did he essentially take the Fifth when he testified before Congress?

According to Baseball's Steroid Era, the reason why McGwire "took the Fifth":

Representative Tom Davis told the AP that McGwire admitted using steroids behind closed doors before the congressional hearing in 2005. McGwire tried to secure immunity, but after it was denied McGwire chose not to address "the past."

Can't blame a guy for wanting to stay out of jail, and IMHO, the congressional hearing were a joke.

Fine, how about my pointing out how off-base you are about McGuire acknowledging what he was taking during that memorable summer, or the incontrovertible fact that the one writer who took note of the bottle of steroid pre-cursor and wrote about it got viciously criticized for writing what he wrote?

It wasn't just baseball that turned a blind eye - everybody did. And your assertion that McGuire was somehow up front about what he took or that what he took was public knowledge is laughable.

[Matthew]

When McGwire & Sosa were doing their homerun chase after the labor strike, they were commended and hailed for "saving baseball", and McGwire was very open about what he was taking at the time, I remember reading articles about it at the time.

Sorry Matthew but you are way off base on this. During that historic chase, a single solitary reporter took note of a bottle that was visible in McGuire's locker, I can't recall the name but I do remember that it was found to be a "steroid pre-cursor", adno something maybe?

Anyway - McGuire got indignant about it and this writer got his ass handed to him by every other writer who said he was pissing on the parade.

Also if McGuire was so open about 'what he was taking at the time' why did he essentially take the Fifth when he testified before Congress?

According to Baseball's Steroid Era, the reason why McGwire "took the Fifth":

Representative Tom Davis told the AP that McGwire admitted using steroids behind closed doors before the congressional hearing in 2005. McGwire tried to secure immunity, but after it was denied McGwire chose not to address "the past."

Can't blame a guy for wanting to stay out of jail, and IMHO, the congressional hearing were a joke.

Fine, how about my pointing out how off-base you are about McGuire acknowledging what he was taking during that memorable summer, or the incontrovertible fact that the one writer who took note of the bottle of steroid pre-cursor and wrote about it got viciously criticized for writing what he wrote?

It wasn't just baseball that turned a blind eye - everybody did. And your assertion that McGuire was somehow up front about what he took or that what he took was public knowledge is laughable.

Admittedly, I'm going off my memory, which at my age is dangerous, but it seems to me that I did read a number of articles where McGwire did talk about what he was using. I'm probably wrong, but I'm glad I can make you laugh though!

[Brad]

Interesting article, particularly the Ken Burns comment about punishing Bonds and Clemens. It just goes to show that sometimes the way you act towards people will come back and bite you.

As with many things that in the overall scheme of things aren't all that important, this too will blow over and I note the writer's last comment:

"As bad as this shutout looks right now, it likely won't happen again for a long time. The voting populace will get smarter as new blood filters in and others leave the voting ranks, whether through natural attrition or expulsion for no longer covering the game. It might seem preposterous that Mike Piazza and Jeff Bagwell and Curt Schilling and Tim Raines aren't already in, leaving aside more polarizing candidates like Bonds and Clemens. But in time, I do think the vast majority of worthy candidates will get their due, sooner or later. Even the ones who are keeping voters up at night right now."

Edited January 10, 2013 by Brad

[JSngry]

So...a 50 game suspension for a kid who tests positive for pot in the off-season?

http://www.lonestarball.com/2013/1/9/3857602/astros-prospect-jonathan-singleton-suspended-50-games

Second offense, and yeah, you know the rules, but still...not sure if either sanity or consistency is at work here?

[Dan Gould]

FWIW, MLB is free to include pot as well as other "harder" drugs and to test for them in the minor leagues because those players have no collective bargaining rights. But when the kid makes the majors, he won't have to worry about his pot habit causing a problem.

[Soulstation1]

Is he Ken Singleton's son ?

Can't find that info

[paul secor]

Wikipedia (assuming it can be trusted) says that Ken Singleton is "the father of former minor league outfielder Justin Singleton." No mention of Jonathan.

[Brad]

Here is the take of the Bill Madden of the NY Daily News, also a member of the BBWA, http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/hall-fame-voters-follow-hearts-minds-stats-trends-article-1.1237163

[Matthew]

FWIW, MLB is free to include pot as well as other "harder" drugs and to test for them in the minor leagues because those players have no collective bargaining rights. But when the kid makes the majors, he won't have to worry about his pot habit causing a problem.

To which Tim Lincecum is eternally grateful for that CBA!

[Tim McG]

I expected Goody's response and would have been surprised had it been otherwise.

However, they made the right decision on Baroid, Clemens and Sosa and bssed on their low total may never get in. Regarding Bagwell and Piazza there are only whispers and suspicions so I would have put them in. Considering their vote total, they may get admission in a couple of years.

Why should Bonds, Clemens and Sosa be punished for something that MLB encouraged them to do? Even when Bonds was going after Aaron's homerun record, Selig did nothing, absolutely nothing about these players, other than to make sure the baseball made all the money it could off of them. When McGwire & Sosa were doing their homerun chase after the labor strike, they were commended and hailed for "saving baseball", and McGwire was very open about what he was taking at the time, I remember reading articles about it at the time. So, I'm sorry, but for me, it doesn't make any sense to punish players, especially when nothing has been prove through testing, or even in the courts. I'm not saying that these three and many others did not take PED's, I'm saying that MLB turned it's back on the problem, and did nothing. Or another way to say all this: If these three are out of the Hall of Fame, then MLB better make damn sure that Bud Selig doesn't get in either!

You are spot on here, Matthew. Excellent post.

And here's the other side of the coin: The stats Bonds and Clemons put up before the so-called steroid era alone would make them first ballot HOFer's. The writers are turning the HOF into a not what you know but who you know good ol' boys club.

And since we're on the subject, are guys like Goose Gossage going to call for the removal of those HOF players who used amphetamines during the 80s?

And Brad, you're OK with "whispers and suspicions" then why not let Pete Rose in the HOF? He only gambled during his managerial days, not his playing days. But those "whispers and suspicions" suggested otherwise.

Look, either we keep it to what a guy accomplished or we vacate the entire HOF and start all over. This pick and chose crap and on the basis of non-baseball issues is a big bunch of selective garbage.

Edited January 10, 2013 by GoodSpeak