Free For All Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 We started discussing this on the JoeHen thread, so I thought we should give it its own home so as not to derail that discussion. Here's what it includes. Note the additions and deletions. I haven't seen it up close yet so I can't vouch for the "corrections". So what do y'all think? Is this a service to musicians, corporate opportunism or a little of both? What do you think about the change in the contents? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alon Marcus Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 Have you noticed that Jinrikisha is not there ? I beleive that I won't buy the new version. The old one is more than enough for me, but I'll take a look at a local store. Maybe it's a better purchase for someone without a real book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Organfreak Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 So what do y'all think? Is this a service to musicians, corporate opportunism or a little of both? What do you think about the change in the contents? No Jeanine??? Useless! Actually, it looks like a bit more of a useful collection that the old one. And how could it not be a service to musicians, in that musicians write the tunes, and now, we hope, they will get paid. -OF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceW Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 So what do y'all think? Is this a service to musicians, corporate opportunism or a little of both? What do you think about the change in the contents? This is obvious corporate opportunism. Jeannine is in Real Book 2 and for instance, The Very Thought of You is in Real Book 3. Yes, there are THREE books in order to get what you got in ONE book waaaaaay back in JazzzzzzzzzLand times. Then, there is the New Real Book 1, the New Real Book 2, the New Real Book 3; who the hell wants to carry all those books around????? Ooops, excuse me, you were talking about the Hal Leonard Real Book, and I'll be darned, there is a Standards Real Book, when is it going to stop. Times have changed my friend BUT if you have NO books, then at least you are getting a good start. Keep making music B-) Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted September 29, 2004 Report Share Posted September 29, 2004 I'm all in favor of getting the tunes correct. I own probably a dozen fake books, including all the illegal Real Books. Then I've got dozens more books of other kinds (Broadway vocal scores, transcriptions, full scores, etc.). Then there are all the transcriptions of tunes that I've done myself. Hey, I'm into repertoire - anyone who is will have a similar archive. Certainly there are tunes that have been left out of this new legal Real Book that will be missed - at this point, it's a matter of xeroxing those few out of your existing illegal Real Book and making an "addendum" of your own. What needs to be considered is what the point of a fake book is. If you are using it as your "charts" for your working band - well, you're lazy. A working band should have its own special arrangements. If you're dragging it to live jam sessions - well, people are probably going to look down on you for not having those tunes learned. My opinion is that a fake book is cool at informal home jam sessions with your friends, and as a starting point - STARTING POINT - for learning tunes. Once you've gotten serious enough about a tune to perform it live, you better not be playing it out of the fake book. And I don't mean that about the memorization aspect, because that doesn't matter so much to me, it's really about what you're doing to the tune - how you are personalizing it. If you've got a hip arrangement on a tune, I don't care if you and the band have music stands up there. But if you've got five copies of the Real Book on stage, that's sad. Come on - write some charts or pay somebody to write them for you. Intros, interludes, harmony lines, shout choruses, codas, etc. Even key changes and alternate chords for different choruses. Make it interesting! I'll have to look at this one and I may end up getting it. If only to replace the old Real Book as a source for a lot of tunes. I have a database of sources for tunes and I'd love to eliminate the old Real Book from that. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 Added thought - Do they REALLY put the tunes in that order in the book (as shown on Hal Leonard website)? With "A Child Is Born" under A? And "The Girl From Ipanema" under T? If so, that's just fucking stupid. Basic universally-accepted alphabetization rules exist and have done for hundreds of years. It's excusable that some college kids selling stuff out of the trunk of their cars might not get this correct, but a major legitimate publisher has absolutely NO business doing this incorrectly. I don't care whether they're "just imitating the illegal one." They're supposed to be doing the job right - right chords, right royalties, right titles, right alphabetization. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 (edited) A couple of Wayne Shorter questions related to this new 'legal' Real Book. 1. Are there any Wayne Shorter compositions that were in the illegal book that are not in this one (I guess they could show up in volume 2)? Conversely, any Wayne pieces that are in the legal book that were not in the illegal book? 2. Is E.S.P. still credited to Miles as it was in the illegal book, or has it been corrected? Wayne is sole composer of this piece, according to the copyright deposits. 3. The illegal book had a piece called 'Black Diamond' credited to Roland Kirk. Is this in fact Wayne's composition from Introducing, or is it a different Kirk piece that I'm not aware of? Who is credited as composer in the legal book? 4. Someone once showed me a fake/real book that they had which included a Wayne piece called 'Message From Sol'. This blew my mind, because that piece (copyrighted in 1960) has never been recorded, at least not under that title. This piece is not in the new legal book. Was it in the illegal book? Does anyone know which book it was in? Thanks in advance, Bertrand. P.S.: I just read Mike's second post about the alphebitization thing. I remember a hilarious passage in a Peter DeVries novel where the character went nuts going through a songbook when he saw a listing in the index for 'Camptown Races, De'. Edited September 30, 2004 by bertrand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 The old Real Book had these: Ana Maria Armageddon Beauty And The Beast Black Nile Delores Deluge El Gaucho E.S.P. Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum Footprints House Of Jade Iris Juju Mahjong Miyako Mr. Jin Nefertiti Night Dreamer Orbits Pinocchio Prince Of Darkness Speak No Evil Virgo Wild Flower Witch Hunt Yes Or No It also credited Wayne with 502 Blues and De Pois De Amor O'Vazio. Of the above 26, it appears that Mr. Jin is the only one not in the Hal Leonard Real Book. The tune "Black Diamond" in the illegal Real Book is incorrectly credited to Roland Kirk. It is by Milton Sealey. Kirk recorded it on Rip, Rig & Panic. No connection to the Wayne piece of the same name. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 (edited) Thanks Mike! That was quick. It also looks like the spelling for 'Dolores' and the title for 'Yes And No' match the copyrights in the Hal Leonard book, but not in the old real book. Bertrand. Edited September 30, 2004 by bertrand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 A general comment. Although I agree with Mike in theory that the real book should only be a starting point, in practice, I see it used all the time at jam sessions, and I have to admit, this bothers me less than the alternative, which is to hear the same tired standards over and over because these are the only tunes that everyone knows without using the book. At least the real book has some fairly obscure pieces in it (like most of those Wayne Shorter compositions listed above). On one hand, I should shut up because I am not a musician, but on the other hand, I am a paying customer, so I should have some opinion of what is played. I stopped going to jam sessions because of this, and only started again because it's something laid back enough that I can bring my 4-year-old to. And even he has grown tired of some tunes Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 (edited) OK - after a quick and dirty comparison, here's what I come up with. Asterisks indicate added new tunes, not in the illegal Real Book. Omissions are noted at the start of each letter. LETTER A – missing All In Love Is Fair; All My Tomorrows; Alone Together; And Now, The Queen; And On The Third Day; Around Again; As Time Goes By; Ay, Arriba! African Flower (Petite Fleur Africaine) Afro Blue Afternoon In Paris * Agua De Beber (Water To Drink) Airegin Alfie Alice In Wonderland All Blues * All By Myself All Of Me All Of You All The Things You Are * Alright, Okay, You Win * Always Ana Maria Angel Eyes Anthropology * Apple Honey April In Paris April Joy Arise, Her Eyes Armageddon Au Privave Autumn In New York Autumn Leaves LETTER B – missing Ballet; Batterie; Beneath It All; Bitter Suite In The Ozone; Black Monday; Blessed Relief; Blue Comedy; Boston Marathon; Brainville; Brownout Beautiful Love Beauty And The Beast Bessie's Blues Bewitched Big Nick * Black Coffee Black Diamond Black Narcissus Black Nile Black Orpheus Blue Bossa Blue In Green Blue Monk Blue Room, The Blue Train (Blue Trane) Blues For Alice Bluesette Body And Soul Boplicity (Be Bop Lives) Bright Size Life Broad Way Blues * Broadway But Beautiful Butterfly * Byrd Like LETTER C – missing A Call For All Demons; Canyon Song; Chicken Feathers; Colors Of Chloe; Children’s Song; Conference Of The Birds; Country Roads * Call Me * Call Me Irresponsible * Can't Help Lovin' Dat Man Captain Marvel Central Park West Ceora * C'est Si Bon (It's So Good) Chega De Saudade (No More Blues) Chelsea Bells Chelsea Bridge Cherokee (Indian Love Song) * Cherry Pink And Apple Blossom White Child Is Born, A Chippie * Chitlins Con Carne Come Sunday Como En Vietnam Con Alma Conception Confirmation Contemplation Coral Cotton Tail Could It Be You Countdown Crescent Crystal Silence LETTER D – missing The Days Of Wine And Roses; De Pois De Amor O’Vazio; The Dolphin; The Duke; Duplicities * D Natural Blues Daahoud Dancing On The Ceiling Darn That Dream Day Waves Days And Nights Waiting Dear Old Stockholm Dearly Beloved Dedicated To You Deluge Desafinado Desert Air * Detour Ahead Dexterity * Dizzy Atmosphere Django Doin' The Pig Dolores Dolphin Dance Domino Biscuit Donna Lee Don't Blame Me Don't Get Around Much Anymore * Dream A Little Dream Of Me * Dreamsville LETTER E – missing Eiderdown; Elizete; Empathy E.S.P. * Easter Parade Easy Living Easy To Love (You'd Be So Easy To Love) Ecclusiastics Eighty One El Gaucho Epistrophy Equinox Equipoise LETTER F – missing Fables Of Faubus; A Family Joy; Feelings And Things; The Fields We Know; Flags; A Foggy Day; Fortune Smiles; Four Winds Fall Falling Grace Falling In Love With Love Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum Fine Romance, A 500 Miles High 502 Blues Follow Your Heart Footprints * For All We Know For Heaven's Sake * (I Love You) For Sentimental Reasons Forest Flower Four Four On Six Freddie Freeloader Freedom Jazz Dance * Full House LETTER G – missing Gary’s Waltz; General Mojo’s Well Laid Plan; The Gentle Rain; Goodbye Pork Pie Hat * Gee Baby, Ain't I Good To You Gemini Giant Steps Girl From Ipanema, The (Garota De Ipanema) Gloria's Step God Bless' The Child Golden Lady Good Evening Mr. And Mrs. America Grand Central Green Mountains, The Groovin' High Grow Your Own * Guilty * Gypsy In My Soul LETTER H – missing Hasaan’s Dream; Henninger Flats; Herzog; Hey There; Hold Out Your Hand; Hotel Hello; Hotel Overture; Hotel Vamp Half Nelson Have You Met Miss Jones? Heaven * Heebie Jeebies Hello, Young Lovers Here's That Rainy Day * Hot Toddy House Of Jade How High The Moon How Insensitive (Insensatez) How My Heart Sings Hullo Bolinas LETTER I – missing Ictus; Ida Lupino; I’m Afraid; In Your Own Sweet Way; Inside In; It’s A Raggy Waltz I Can't Get Started With You * I Can't Give You Anything But Love I Could Write A Book I Got It Bad And That Ain't Good I Let A Song Go Out Of My Heart I Love Paris I Love You I Mean You I Remember Clifford I Should Care * I Wish I Knew How It Would Feel To Be Free Icarus If You Never Come To Me (Inutil paisagem) * I'll Never Smile Again I'll Remember April I'm All Smiles * I'm Beginning To See The Light I'm Your Pal Impressions In A Mellow Tone In A Sentimental Mood * In The Mood * In The Wee Small Hours Of The Morning In Your Quiet Place Inch Worm, The Indian Lady Inner Urge Interplay Intrepid Fox, The Invitation Iris * Is You Is, Or Is You Ain't (Ma' Baby) Isn't It Romantic? Isotope Israel It Don't Mean A Thing (If It Ain't Got That Swing) * It's Easy To Remember LETTER J – missing Jamala, Jinrikisha; June The 15th, 1967; Just Friends Jelly Roll Jordu Journey To Recife Joy Spring Juju Jump Monk * June In January * Just One More Chance LETTER K - complete Kelo LETTER L – missing La Fiesta; Leroy The Magician; Lie Awake; Little B’s Poem; Little Niles; Liturgy; Long As You Know You’re Living Yours; Looking Back Lady Bird * Lady Sings The Blues Lament Las Vegas Tango Lazy Bird * Lazy River Like Someone In Love Limehouse Blues * Lines And Spaces Litha Little Boat Little Waltz Long Ago (And Far Away) Lonnie's Lament Look To The Sky * Love Is The Sweetest Thing Lucky Southern Lullaby Of Birdland Lush Life LETTER M – missing Mallet Man; May Dance; Memphis Underground; Mevlevia; Molten Glass; Montage; Moon Germs; The More I See You; Mother Of The Dead Man Magician In You, The Mahjong Maiden Voyage * Man And A Woman, A (Un Homme Et Une Femme) Man In The Green Shirt Meditation (Meditacao) Memories Of Tomorrow Michelle Midnight Mood Midwestern Nights Dream Milano Minority * Miss Ann Missouri Uncompromised Misty Miyako Moment's Notice Mood Indigo Moonchild * Most Beautiful Girl In The World, The Mr. P.C. * My Buddy My Favorite Things My Foolish Heart My Funny Valentine My One And Only Love My Romance * My Shining Hour My Ship * My Way Mysterious Traveller LETTER N – missing Night And Day; Nimbus; Nonsequence Naima (Niema) Nardis Nefertiti Never Will I Marry Nica's Dream Night Dreamer Night Has A Thousand Eyes, The Night In Tunisia, A * Night Train * Nobody Knows You When You're Down And Out Nostalgia In Times Square * Nuages LETTER O – missing Olhos De Gato; On Green Dolphin Street; Open Your Eyes, You Can Fly * (Old Man From) The Old Country Oleo Oliloqui Valley Once I Loved (Amor Em Paz) (Love In Peace) * Once In Love With Amy One Finger Snap One Note Samba (Samba De Uma Nota So) * Only Trust Your Heart Orbits Ornithology Out Of Nowhere LETTER P – missing Peaches En Regalia; Pearlie’s Swine; Pee Wee; Perfect Love; Plain Jane * P.S. I Love You * Paper Doll Passion Dance * Passion Flower Peace Peggy's Blue Skylight Pent Up House * Penthouse Serenade Peri's Scope Pfrancing (No Blues) Pinocchio Pithecanthropus Erectus Portsmouth Figurations Prelude To A Kiss Prince Of Darkness Pussy Cat Dues LETTER Q - complete Quiet Nights Of Quiet Stars (Corcovado) Quiet Now LETTER R – missing The Raven; The Real Guitarist In The House; Resolution Recorda-Me Red Clay Reflections Reincarnation Of A Lovebird * Ring Dem Bells Road Song 'Round Midnight * Ruby, My Dear LETTER S – missing Same Shame; Self Portrait In Three Colors; Semblence; Senor Mouse; Serenade To A Cuckoo; Shades Of Light; The Shadow Of Your Smile; Sing Me Softly Of The Blues; Slowly Gone, Bygone; Some Other Time; Son Of Mr. Green Genes; Song; Space Circus 1; Space Circus 2; Spain; Spiral Dance; Sweeping Up; Sweet Rain Saga Of Harrison Crabfeathers, The Satin Doll Scotch And Soda Scrapple From The Apple Sea Journey Seven Come Eleven Seven Steps To Heaven Sidewinder Silver Hollow Sirabhorn Skating In Central Park So Nice (Summer Samba) So What Solar Solitude Some Day My Prince Will Come * Some Other Spring Some Skunk Funk * Somebody Loves Me Sometime Ago Song For My Father Song Is You, The Sophisticated Lady Sorcerer, The Speak No Evil Sphinx, The * Standing On The Corner Star-Crossed Lovers, The Stella By Starlight Steps Stolen Moments Stompin' At The Savoy Straight No Chaser * String Of Pearls, A Stuff Sugar * Sunday Kind Of Love, A * Surrey With The Fringe On Top, The Swedish Pastry Sweet Georgia Bright Sweet Henry LETTER T – missing They Can’t Take That Away From Me; Tough Talk; Train Samba Trance Take Five Take The 'A' Train Tame Thy Pen Tell Me A Bedtime Story * Thanks For The Memory * That's Amore (That's Love) There Is No Greater Love There Will Never Be Another You * There'll Be Some Changes Made * They Didn't Believe Me Think On Me * Thou Swell Three Flowers Time Remembered Tones For Joan's Bones * Topsy * Tour De Force Triste Tune Up Turn Out The Stars * Twisted Blues LETTER U - complete * Unchain My Heart Uniquity Road Unity Village Up Jumped Spring Upper Manhattan Medical Group (UMMG) LETTER V – missing Vashkar Valse Hot Very Early Virgo LETTER W – missing Walkin’; Walter L.; Waltz For A Lovely Wife; Waltzin’; What Are You Doing The Rest Of Your Life; What Is This Thing Called Love; Where Are You; Wings Of Karma Wait Till You See Her Waltz For Debby Wave We'll Be Together Again Well You Needn't (It's Over Now) West Coast Blues What Am I Here For? What Was When I Fall In Love When Sunny Gets Blue When You Wish Upon A Star * Whispering Wild Flower Windows Witch Hunt * Wives And Lovers (Hey, Little Girl) * Woodchopper's Ball Woodyn' You * World Is Waiting For The Sunrise, The LETTER Y - complete Yes And No Yesterday Yesterdays You Are The Sunshine Of My Life You Are Too Beautiful * You Brought A New Kind Of Love To Me You Don't Know What Love Is You Took Advantage Of Me * Young At Heart * You're Nobody 'til Somebody Loves You Mike Edited September 30, 2004 by Michael Fitzgerald Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 I just wish to hell that they'd left "All Of Me" and "How High The Moon" out of the new edition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted September 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 Wow, Mike, thanks for the research project. What do we owe you? I'm surprised that some common and popular "desert island" tunes got axed. Alone Together, In Your Own Sweet Way, Just Friends, Night and Day, What Is This Thing Called Love (among others) are all common session tunes that all players should know. I wonder if it was a copyright issue? I'm also curious to see if they corrected the MANY mistakes from the original. Dear Old Stockholm was a mess. And Rooster- you'd have thought they might have added Beatrice, which has become a standard 'round most parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~adams/realbook/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Organfreak Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 missing: Alone Together; The Days Of Wine And Roses; A Foggy Day; Four Winds; The Gentle Rain; Goodbye Pork Pie Hat; In Your Own Sweet Way; Just Friends; La Fiesta; Night And Day; On Green Dolphin Street; Serenade To A Cuckoo; The Shadow Of Your Smile; They Can’t Take That Away From Me; Walkin’; What Are You Doing The Rest Of Your Life; What Is This Thing Called Love; Unacceptable! OTOH, there are some welcome additions. Thanks for doing all this work so we can compare at a glance. -OF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Organfreak Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 Dear Old Stockholm was a mess. Werd. -OF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 (edited) Mike, A couple of comments for the Wayne Shorter part of your listing. 1. Two pieces are in the new book (without an asterisk) that you did not mention in your listing of Wayne compositions from the old book: 'Fall' and 'Mysterious Traveller' (I assume it's Wayne's 'Fall'). 2. You mentioned that 'Mr. Jin' had been dropped; it is not in your listing of missing songs beginning with 'M'. Bertrand. Edited September 30, 2004 by bertrand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 Yeah, quick and dirty. All three are by Wayne and are in the illegal version credited to him. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceW Posted September 30, 2004 Report Share Posted September 30, 2004 What needs to be considered is what the point of a fake book is. If you are using it as your "charts" for your working band - well, you're lazy. A working band should have its own special arrangements. If you're dragging it to live jam sessions - well, people are probably going to look down on you for not having those tunes learned. My opinion is that a fake book is cool at informal home jam sessions with your friends, and as a starting point - STARTING POINT - for learning tunes. Once you've gotten serious enough about a tune to perform it live, you better not be playing it out of the fake book. And I don't mean that about the memorization aspect, because that doesn't matter so much to me, it's really about what you're doing to the tune - how you are personalizing it. If you've got a hip arrangement on a tune, I don't care if you and the band have music stands up there. But if you've got five copies of the Real Book on stage, that's sad. Come on - write some charts or pay somebody to write them for you. Intros, interludes, harmony lines, shout choruses, codas, etc. Even key changes and alternate chords for different choruses. Make it interesting! Mike Michael I personally want to thank you for your statements. Waaay tooo many musicians today think that a chart is a "copy of a page from the Real Book." They treat the Real Book like it is the Bible. I personally know a few musicians out here in California that could use a professional tongue lashing because of their attitudes. They are lazy, non professional and "very sloppy" in playing the tunes, they have no arrangements, no endings and "always" fall on the "inept excuse" of "well we like to wing it." I just quit a band because of those attitudes they have. And to top it off, they weren't making any "money" either.Keep up the playing, the music, and the professional approach; I applaud you. B-) Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted October 1, 2004 Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 Hi Bruce - Yeah, I hear you. I've been on plenty of gigs where it was: flip through the Real Book and find something, then a string of solos, then the head again, then a pause to flip through again. Way too many musicians have a problem with doing rehearsals. They think they are so important (and maybe so good) that rehearsals are unnecessary. As far as I'm concerned, I'd actually rather rehearse than play the gig! So long as there is stretching and discussion and improvement going on. Too many times it's: get a gig, maybe rehearse once or twice for it. What I think it should be is: rehearse (weekly?) until you are ready to present something that is original and polished, and THEN go out to find a gig. I guess some folks heard that comment by Miles about "I pay you to rehearse on the bandstand" and figured they were in the same league as Herbie, Ron, and Tony. Oops. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted October 1, 2004 Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 Playing tired standards all night doesn't appeal to me at all. That's one of the reason why our record is all original tunes and why strive to write our own tunes or do new arrangements of standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Organfreak Posted October 1, 2004 Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 Playing tired standards all night doesn't appeal to me at all. That's one of the reason why our record is all original tunes and why strive to write our own tunes or do new arrangements of standards. Me too, dood. I don't do many originals, but I have for years featured some incredible Jack McDuff head arrangements, and the audiences love them! They really respond to the built-in excitement and surprises of these arrangements. I still play a few standards that I feel adapt themselves well to organ, like "Yesterdays" for example, and then there is the world of jazz organ standards to draw on-- heads by JOS, McGriff, Holmes, etc. If asked to play "Blue Bossa" ever again, I would book a flight to a desert island real quick. -OF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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