Black Lion Vinyl

[Daniel A]

How does one recognize an original Black Lion LP? I seem to recall that most of the Black Lion LPs I've seen also have either the "Interchord" or the "Polydor" logo on the cover/label.

[AllenLowe]

if it's real noisy, but one gets the impression that, somewhere behind the noise, there's some music, than it's an original Black Lion pressing-

[AllenLowe]

or, if you call CSI, and they dust it for finger prints and they turn up as Chuck Nessa's, it's also likely an original pressing -

Edited April 14, 2006 by AllenLowe

[Daniel A]

Heh... sort of what I suspected, but thanks anyway.

I just got the Clarke-Boland LP on Black Lion, 'At Her Majesty's Pleasure....'. The shop had two copies, one /Polydor (made in England) and one /Interchord (made in Germany). They were identical (gatefold cover and all) except for the logos, LP labels and that the Polydor had an additional note below "Sleeve design: Hamish Grimes" which said "Cover printed by: [forget who]". I got the Interchord since it was cheaper, and actually sounded like a better (quieter) pressing.

[AllenLowe]

didn't mean to be too flip - it's just true that, as I recall, I frequently had trouble with their pressings - they're sort of the Paramount of LP labels -

[Chuck Nessa]

didn't mean to be too flip - it's just true that, as I recall, I frequently had trouble with their pressings - they're sort of the Paramount of LP labels -

That's probably 'cause you bought the shitty US pressings made by Audio Fidelity. In Europe they were pressed variously by Polydor/Polygram in England, RCA in France and Sonopress in Germany. There may have been others but that's what I remember.

[Daniel A]

Thanks for the information, Chuck. Perhaps the Black Lion LPs were issued in cooperation with Polydor, Intercord etc. right from the start, so that there are in fact no "plain" Black Lion pressings?

[Chuck Nessa]

Thanks for the information, Chuck. Perhaps the Black Lion LPs were issued in cooperation with Polydor, Intercord etc. right from the start, so that there are in fact no "plain" Black Lion pressings?

That is true until sometime around the last part of the '70s when the labels were only "Black Lion" markings on the records.

[AmirBagachelles]

I can remember being so pissed about noisy brand new LPs in the late 70s. Two things it really spurred for me was a willingness to copy to and listen from Dolby-ized cassettes, and a crazed quest for Japanese vinyl. I didn't really consider that European pressings could be better, though some of that mellow ECM sound on quiet vinyl was rather nice.

[sidewinder]

Didn't Alan Bates (owner of Black Lion) have an arrangement with Polydor back in the late 60s/early 70s. One of the old Jazz Journal issues has an interview with him where he talks about the licensing of this - I'll have to dig it out.

I've got quite a few of the Black Lion UK issues. Actually two copies of 'At Her Majesty's Pleasure', one being gatefold. Both sound pretty good. I would suspect that the German vinyl is even better thanks to the early 70s Teutonic quality control ( ). The CBBB 'November Girl' is not so good though - a lot of surface noise on that one (I suspect Rearward's reissue is much better). Also have a couple of the Monk albums which were issued in the Mosaic. The original versions have pretty 'colourful' sleeves, sound is not bad at all.

Also have several of the Charles Tollivers on this imprint, although I sold 'Live at the Loosedrecht Jazz Festival' in a moment of madness..

[Daniel A]

It's seems to be a somewhat universal view that original (or "original", depending on the real origin of the recordings) US pressings generally are the best, regardless of what label it's on. However, my experience is that the average German pressing in the 70s was better than what was being manufactured in the US.

It's one thing with MPS and other good quality European labels, but even some American labels seemed to be simultanously pressed in Europe with good results. I listened to Paul Desmond's 'Summertime' the other day, late 1960s A&M album, and noticed that it said "manufactured by Deutsche Grammophon"; actually I found it sounded rather better than some other US A&M:s I've got.

[sidewinder]

Yep, 'Hamish Grimes' of the McNeill Press Ltd is credited in the sleevenotes. Images of tam-o-shanters, haggis and sporrans..

Just given the gatefold LP a spin and it sounds pretty nice Pre-oil crisis (1971) so the vinyl was still good. It has the red 'Polydor' label, whereas my second copy has the Black Lion. I think the switch happened around 1974ish.

Edited April 14, 2006 by sidewinder

[Daniel A]

I've got quite a few of the Black Lion UK issues. Actually two copies of 'At Her Majesty's Pleasure', one being gatefold.

Sidewinder, do your copies have "Black Lion" or "Polydor" LP labels? The copy I saw yesterday had a red Polydor label. The quality of the gatefold cover seemed to be slightly better than that of the Intercord, but the vinyl was a bit warped and noisier. The copy I got has yellow Black Lion labels with a small Intercord logo at the bottom.

Edit: You managed to reply to my label question already before I had posted it - thanks!

I would suspect that the German vinyl is even better thanks to the early 70s Teutonic quality control ( )

Indeed, this is one of the quitest vinyls I've heard, even better than some ECMs.

(I'm beginning to think that the guy in the shop made a mistake when he offered me 50 percent off the price of this copy, assuming that it was mis-priced - not an original with the Interchord logo and being "Made in West Germany")

Edited April 14, 2006 by Daniel A

[sidewinder]

Daniel - I'm just listening to the gatefold issue right now (a good excuse) and it sounds absolutely wonderful. It is the red Polydor label, although the gatefold sleeve is white (typical Black Lion format) plus piccie with Polydor label on lower LHS and Black Lion on lower RHS. The vinyl is quite substantial, wheras my later issue copy from about 1977/78 has thinner vinyl and no mention of Polydor. Both LPs sound good though.

Incidentally, I've seen numerous copies of this gatefold LP in shops over here in the past at around the £5 mark. It seems to be the most prolofic CBBB vinyl in the UK, along with 'Sax No End'. Strange.

[jazzbo]

Didn't Alan Bates (owner of Black Lion) have an arrangement with Polydor back in the late 60s/early 70s. One of the old Jazz Journal issues has an interview with him where he talks about the licensing of this - I'll have to dig it out.

I've got quite a few of the Black Lion UK issues. Actually two copies of 'At Her Majesty's Pleasure', one being gatefold. Both sound pretty good. I would suspect that the German vinyl is even better thanks to the early 70s Teutonic quality control ( ). The CBBB 'November Girl' is not so good though - a lot of surface noise on that one (I suspect Rearward's reissue is much better). Also have a couple of the Monk albums which were issued in the Mosaic. The original versions have pretty 'colourful' sleeves, sound is not bad at all.

Also have several of the Charles Tollivers on this imprint, although I sold 'Live at the Loosedrecht Jazz Festival' in a moment of madness..

The recent cd reissue of "November Girl" does indeed sound really good. In comparison to the vinyl I've heard.

[sidewinder]

I'm sure Rearward's vinyl reissue is also stunning, having heard what they did on the other reissues. The Black Lion 'November Girl' lacks depth/soundstage and makes Boland's electric piano sound like a wind-up toy.

[Christiern]

didn't mean to be too flip - it's just true that, as I recall, I frequently had trouble with their pressings - they're sort of the Paramount of LP labels -

I thought that dubious honor went to Everest. (Monmouth Everest?) (Evergreen?)

Come to think of it, Babs Gonsalez had the venal vinyl market sewed up--I have seen more delicate pot lids.

Edited April 14, 2006 by Christiern

[AllenLowe]

that's true - with those guys I was never sure if it was surface noise or just an overactive drummer freaking out on the ride cymbal -