AllenLowe

yes - I should have bought Polaroid at 8 and a half -

sure why not? The key's under the mat - I mean, what could happen?

that's also what Joe Albany told me.

well, there's also the great wheat beers of Germany - also known as:

whenever I read something as perfectly expressed as Larry's description of Cecil Taylor, as above, I understand why the term "art" is so poorly understood, especially by those who dismiss the power and importance of criticism.

jeez, when did this happen? I only met Dixon once or twice; I know Cliff was close to him. So sorry to hear about it, a complete shock.

good points two posts up, so let me amend to say prime jazz influence. and everybody liked Bill Evans, everybody dug Bill Evans, so he was easier to credit. hey, good name for a record - ("Easier to Credit") -

"he has never acknowledged it because he has selective amnesia, stemming largely from a personal/psychological hang-up over the fact that Tristano was a white SOB. " Mark, you are not reading my posts - disagreeing is fine, but you are mischaracterizing what I said, which was much more complicated. There was a pervasive sense of Tristano, from many of the musicians I knew in those days, as a nasty, insulting guy - and the reaction to this, due to his meanness, vanity and self conceit, was frequently to completely deny connection rather than own up to a personal musical relationship. As a matter of fact, the failure of Herbie to EVEN MENTION Tristano anywhere actually SUPPORTS my position, because the connection is so obvious that, if it was peripheral or minor, he would mention it in passing - so his failure to do so is almost bizarre - to the point that it comes closer to proving my point than yours. And I believe the race thing enters in, especially as things were developing in the '60s, where critical tendency was to ignore Tristano et al because, interesting as his experiments were, they were allegedly lacking in "influence" - which is irrelevant, anyway, and also untrue (read some of the things Julius Hemphill has said in acknowledgement of such, as has Braxton; more to the point, in the course of racial events of the 1960s, when people like Sonny Rollins were being pressured for having white musicians, how likely was a guy like Lennie to receive credit?) but this whole racial thing of the time is very complex - you can't sum it up in a sentence. You gotta actually know some of the musicians who were actually there, from not only Herbie's generation, but the one before, like Bill Triglia, et al. Also, for a dose of reality, read Matt Shipp's account of Cecil Taylor going beserk because Matt's favorite pianist was a white guy - and this is 20-30 years later. So mulitply racial attitudes by about 10 and you have the '60s.

well, the disciples don't count - they chose to drink the Kool Aid. and while I agree, per Larry and others above, that there is lots more going on than simply Tristano, if I were to do a pie chart (mmmm, pie...) it would show a greater degree of Tristano than any other, to my ears. hence, prime.

internet post: "Lennie Tristano is an important figure whose influence, unfortunately, often goes uncredited. For example, listen to Herbie Hancock's solo on the Tony Williams tune "Hand Jive," from this mid-1960s Miles Davis album, "Nefertiti." This kind of free, linear improvisation in the treble clef without chordal accompaniment, is, in my opinion, classic Tristano. Herbie's solo begins at 5:39 of the video, which takes a few minutes to load (unless you want to listen to the whole tune). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS5bTqrfbJE

"Also, the racial thing doesn't make any sense given that Herbie has from day 1 acknowledged Bill Evans as both an influence and hero, and for what it's worth, also said he was later influenced by Chick Corea" Racially speaking, Tristano was different in this respect - I kid you not that he offended everybody in his day, to the extent that musicians would deny his influence rather than admit to a connection with The Witch Doctor. My sense of this is based on more than interviews, but on the whole aura surrounding Lennie's post-retirement remarks in their own time, and on his post-retirement relationship with the jazz scene and the more-than-one musician who commented during that time with anger about the hostility and anger Lennie scattered in his philosophical wake. "this is why nobody mentions him anymore. He's just too mean and nasty" - remark of a well-known jazz record producer, circa 1975. And this is commentary on how things get distorted in the historical picture. And geez, the things Herbie plays on those '60s Miles things scream out for the connection to Tristano. Forget Bill Evans.

"As for for No. 2, what evidence is there that Herbie studied Lennie Tristano and that he was his prime influence?" everything Herbie played, in my opinion, with those 1960s Miles groups - I remember a personal 'Eureka' moment, watching Herbie with Miles' group in some live 1960s footage - I can hear it in the particular density of his line. I couldn't prove it in a court of law, but I feel very certain. He's just in denial, as it would not be politically (read: racially, given Tristano's own weirdness on such issues) correct to say so. And Tristano, who was a genuinely nasty guy, burned so many bridges in his later years (and these were weak bridges to begin with) that musicians just disliked him too much to admit the ties. just my intuition on steroids. And drawn what I heard "around," in NYC in the 1970s. And my own personal experience with Tristano. as for Bird's early groups - I think they were plenty together, whether it was Max or Sid Catlett.

interesting sidebar to this whole discussion: "you know, in reality, Sonny (Rollins) was more into scales and Cotrane was more into chords." -Dave Schildkraut, 1979 and thanks, Larry, just read your piece, which makes a lot of sense.

interesting - reading the Ashley Kahn, a few things occur to me - 1) Gary Burton: "When new jazz styles come along, the first few attempts to do it are usually kind of shaky. Early Charlie Parker records were like this. But with Kind of Blue, [the sextet] all sound like they're fully into it." complete nonsense. Early Charlie Parker records are quite together 2) Herbie Hancock - this guy has selective amnesia, and never seems to credit Lennie Tristano, whom I would argue was his prime influence. 3) re: the attribution of Kind of Blues' effects on Mancini and other statically blue movie music: well, re: Mancini, I just do not hear this. As for movie music, I think this is also weakly supported. We need to go back to Alex North, I Want to Live, the Man with the Golden Arm, Kenyon Hopkins (Baby Doll) and a few others to see that this is very inaccurate.

thanks, Mark, Larry, will do a little bit of reading now.

I would tend to agree, Larry, that it was "ground zero." But strangely I never hear older musicians talking about it. But than, I don't get out much - other people were thinking along similar lines - Teddy Charles, Mingus, Bley, Ornette was already around, even some of the west coast guys (there are some Shelly Manne group things that go in this direction). Maybe Miles put it all together and made it there, but I am always suspicious of history written so long after the fact, and history that cannot produce the feeling of the times in which it happened.

well, that seems to be the critical drift, that the album changed the whole emphasis of the jazz world. I would be particularly interested in hearing from people who (unlike myself) were old enough at the time to be part of the musical scene that Kind of Blue entered - maybe Larry or Chuck is in the vicinity.

just reading Richard Williams' book on Kind of Blue; there's also Ashley Kahn's book and 18 generations of reissues. the accepted wisdom is that Miles' recording of Kind of Blue was not only a personal watershed but an event which cataclysmically changed the music, all jazz musicians, and the music they played. And yet..... what evidence do we have that Kind of Blue had a major impact outside of the critical fraternity? How much direct testimony do we have from the musicians that Kind of Blue was something they heard and responded to in life-changing ways? maybe there's more than I think there is. If I had more time I would research this out in the real world, but I figured I'd give you guys a chance first.

1) he plays a villain in one of the later, Roger Moore, James Bond movies - 2) few people know this, but the flip side of Big Bad John was "I Won't Go Huntin' with you Jake, But I'll Go Chasin' Women." I played that 45 a lot when I was a kid.

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it also helps to have state-of-the art factories, and tough negotiators who are not afraid to negotiate the best deals we can get with angry unions - though we do have to out-source on occassion -

some of you have questioned how I can offer these incredibly good prices - well, it has to do with my modern aquisition techniques -

ah, so Herb must have done the Atlantics.

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