Simon Weil

Might be. There is the locker room thing to do with the "gorgeous babes" posts which certainly is threatened by women's presence. But then, on the other hand, there is a kind of civilised thing - to do with a fair degree of restraint with which people go at each other. Women are generally reckoned to have a "civilising" influence in social situations. There is no doubt that Jazz is a kind of "male" lake - and historically that has been built on a fair degree of sexism. I know when I've brought up the subject people have got uneasy, but one can hardly deny that Jazz is one of the most "male" of all the arts. Certainly compared to classical music or pop - with their numerous female stars - the difference is most striking. You know, Jim maintains this place is like a bar - and it's his forum. But then, when a woman walks into a bar that's kind of different from when a woman goes into a coffee shop. I think Jazz needs to change to survive. I'd say that change would involve women (substantially). Or not. Simon Weil I disagree with you. Tough jazz players were traditionally males, but we had great female singers, now things are changed. Like everythings as well. I think this is true, but probably not in the way you mean it. In society at large you now get a "glass ceiling" to prevent women, in anything other than smallish numbers, reaching the very top in their professions. Now you can argue that no such ceiling exists in Jazz, but still there are very few women at the absolute top. Well, if you want, to take an offshoot of Jazz - Euro-free improv. My observation is that it is a substantially more women-friendly zone than Jazz itself. I'm thinking about a festival in London in 2001 in particular - maybe 1/4+ of the performers were women, likewise the audience. How do you explain that in terms of the youth of the form? I don't think you can - it's younger than Jazz (evidently). I think it's a vibe thing. Women (e.g. Joelle Leandre) pick up that this is a relatively friendly cultural place and go there. Right, so I guess your argument would be that when society became more open for women there was already a backlog of competence amongst women - and thus plenty of females available to take the new opportunities in classical. But the fact is more than half the members of (American) school Jazz bands are female(I've mentioned this before). So you currently have just this vast backlog of competence amongst American females in Jazz and zippo (or nearly so) result in Jazz as a career. I agree with you on that. Well, alright. Let's take Madonna, who I happen to hate. She sort of became emblematic of pop in the 80s. People read all sorts of deep post-modern meaning into the stuff. Gawd know how much of it is true. I don't. But the key point is she became an absolute central figure in pop. AND YOU JUST DON'T GET THAT IN JAZZ. You can argue that she's sexually off or full of it or whatever you like. But the fact once you get that in a form, a woman a key and central figure, you can't go back. Floodgates open. But, on the other hand, take my coffee shop vs bar comparison. Jazz is a pretty staple background music for coffee shops, not so for bars. Yet coffee shops look to me the more female friendly environment. What does that prove. Nothing neccesarily. Or maybe it does prove something. Beatles mania was an opportunity for girls to let their hormones loose. Absolutely bloody terrifying for an 11year old. And of course you still get that with "boy bands" etc.. Not quite the same thing as women going to a jazz gig or chatting away with Jazz in the background (though, mind you that flavour of the month Brit light-Jazz vocalist might benefit from it, to some degree). I think it would stop Jazz looking quite so insular. Simon Weil

Might be. There is the locker room thing to do with the "gorgeous babes" posts which certainly is threatened by women's presence. But then, on the other hand, there is a kind of civilised thing - to do with a fair degree of restraint with which people go at each other. Women are generally reckoned to have a "civilising" influence in social situations. There is no doubt that Jazz is a kind of "male" lake - and historically that has been built on a fair degree of sexism. I know when I've brought up the subject people have got uneasy, but one can hardly deny that Jazz is one of the most "male" of all the arts. Certainly compared to classical music or pop - with their numerous female stars - the difference is most striking. You know, Jim maintains this place is like a bar - and it's his forum. But then, when a woman walks into a bar that's kind of different from when a woman goes into a coffee shop. I think Jazz needs to change to survive. I'd say that change would involve women (substantially). Or not. Simon Weil

Happy Birthday, Mike... Simon Weil

Foyles is on Charing Cross Rd, just before it turns into Tottenham Court Rd. Yup. Sorry 'bout that. Sidewinder wrote: I don't know that I have exactly an unbiased view, but to me listening to Jazz in the 70s and 80s had many more entry points than it does now in the UK. There seemed better people on the radio, more stuff in the shops, more vital gigs etc., etc. Perhaps this is in part just a 50+ guy looking backward, but then there seemed a kind of positive aspect that is missing now. Like this is a music that was really happening then. I miss that. I know Brit Jazz has always had an element of holding on, but that seems prevalent now. Simon Weil

I'm not that big an Ellington fan either, but I have the impression, reading the Hadju book, that no-one has ever really been able to fathom the man. Given that, it's kind of reductive to blame the man for "using" his compatriots. I mean, there is a certain sort of guy (Wagner was one) who draws people to him because they see in him a way to make a larger contribution - because the person concerned is fashioned (or fashions himself) on that larger scale. This is one of the theories for Shakespeare's work - people argue that it involves contributions from others, collaborators, who are now forgotten. I imagine there is an unsavoury side to Ellington. But perhaps Strayhorn et al knew, on some level, that there was greatness involved in Ellington - a greatness involving the black people in art and kind of elevating the whole people - and in that spirit willingly contributed to the Ellington project. I do feel there is some sort of proper "for the people" thing in Ellington. Simon Weil

In terms of Jazz CDs, I'm afraid London is pretty poor (at least I think so). There's a nice store within a store - Ray's Jazz on the first floor of Foyles (the big bookshop on Tottenham Court Road), which I'm sure you would enjoy visiting. Nice vibe, decent selection (though with some loopholes, the store is not vast) and with a little coffee shop adjoining. I haven't visited the (separate) music book department there, but they used to have some pretty good stuff... The big Virgin at the corner of Tottenham Court Road and Oxford Street (i.e. just up the road) has a bigger stock, no vibe and no avant-garde. I don't think London is such a hot buying destination. Sorry. Simon Weil

I like "Nothing ever was...", but then I have a large slab of romantic in me. To me it kind of moves away slightly (and vitally) from the ECM romantic vibe, but romantic is passe for many people per se. Of course she's great on the Braxtons and the guest appearance I've got on Parker/Lytton/Guy is very good. But my personal favourite is "For Coltrane" which I have as a kind of "ongoing player". Started as a folk singer, gave it up, started again. I believe. Simon Weil

I think Tom has it right. Simon Weil

I thought he was a real writer with a proper style. Yes, he was conservative - but so what? If it worked it worked and you just walk round the holes. There's a kind of integrity to his work, which is aesthetically based, eschewing the society based stuff (I've said this before). For me the main problem was his followers - all of whom want to be "real" writers and have the facade of it. I can't say I particularly read his stuff, but I admire it. RIP. Simon Weil

Well, the original intent was to help women in Jazz. Because I know a lot about Wynton, I took that route - feeling that, as a symbol, he articulated a lot of what is wrong with women's treatment in Jazz. If I had wanted to pound Wynton, there are quotes I could have have used and didn't (and won't use now). Purely destructive quotes. Simon Weil

Yeah, I agree with that - wholeheartedly. Generally - Thanks for the positive response, guys. Simon Weil

I think last summer I mentioned I was writing an article on the above topic. It now appears at: Wynton and Women It's been buried off in a corner unfortunately. Simon Weil

Probably so, but there's a whole generation now who knows nothing but that. And it looks like it's going to be that way for a good while to come. For better or worse, that is the "new world", and it's going to be increasingly populated by people for whom what to us seems wholly unnatural is totally natural. No, I don't think it's ever going to be natural. There's a reason all those religions have a day of rest. It may be that people won't be able to see a way to get to that, but that's a different thing. No, I don't believe that either. I think the environment can become so oppressive it crushes the life out of people. Not everyone but some. But I think if people begin to speak out, that breaks the circle. And if the poets have new ideas. Simon Weil

On Poetry thing... I feel blocked by Peterson's sensibility. Like, when I heard him on the radio (in the mid-80s? At least just after he became "it"), the endless stream of "up" bop, salsa and whatever else just created a sense of no space (at least no space for me). Even though one could like the individual tracks, the lack of a moment to take breath became oppressive. I think the poetry in life resides in those moments of space - maybe because poetry (in whatever of its forms) is kind of like a space in life. Like the place we have to go when we don't have to wonder about all the bills and whatever else. But, in life these days, all we seem to wonder about is the bills as we wander round and round in ever tighter circles. I think Peterson articulates that spirit and is kind of representative. Simon Weil

That, I think is right and is a problem for me, too. I've always felt that slow dancing was terribly important and very nice, too. The few gigs I've been to where there was a guest DJ - and I think GP was the DJ at John Patton's gig in Brighton in the 90s, now I come to think of it - there has been no opportunity allowed for the kind of dancing where you both just stand there, swaying and feeling each other closely, listening, perhaps not closely to Stanley Turrentine's "Willow weep for me" or Willis Jackson's "Evergreen" or anything by Ben Webster. Well, I'm more of a hippyish throw-myself-around-in-circles kind of dancer (maybe at 53 I should give this up) but...Yup...Ike Quebec, Blue and Sentimental is the one in my head. The poetry in life? Simon Weil

I can't remember exactly, but I have the vague feeling that that's somehow right. My memory of him is of a teenage club DJ becoming immediately successful with a new mix of music, incorporating, I think hard bop and ?salsa (anyway something latin). And now terrible admission: My problem was I didn't like it. Admittedly it was a dance thing, but there was something relentless about it. Anyway, the guy's gone from stength to strength; is obviously a talent - and is Not For Me. GP is not a ballad person. Simon Weil

You're right- I don't think a session with strings is where I want to start, but I always enjoy seeing where a threads goes. Who cares what the original point was! And who knows, maybe Alice will expand my mind to the point where a string session will work for me... I only know Lord of Lords, but that's not at all a standard "Jazz with strings" session. I mean it's more like orchestral classical music, maybe late 19th C, in vibe and effect. It is supposed to evoke God (I guess) which explains its scale and grandiosity. "Baroque" is the word that springs to mind. I heard that when I first came into Jazz, along with Journey in Satchidananda - and found it works, though not for everyone, I'm sure. I don't think any of AC's work should frighten you. It's not really out. Ptah is the recommended classic, strongish, structured. JiS is a lovely session, glowing harp work integrated into modestly avant setting with strong compositions. Not just a pianist. Simon Weil [if anyone's interested, the scale of Lord of Lords seems to fit with the awesome thing in John C's music and, ultimately, his conception of "OM". Kind of a connection between husband and wife.]

A guitarist who used to post to rmb and has played with Wynton said W. doesn't much like guitar (making an exception for him). Maybe that's just Jazz guitar. Simon Weil

It is shocking. Played "Journey to..." this morning (didn't know). Simon Weil

I'm not sure I understand the concept. Can you draw comparisons? In the sense that the centre of Ayler's soloing is his evocative sound playing - and in doing that he "goes beyond notes". So that you get a music where harmony and melody are no longer central. And it's also free rhythmically. All of which means practically all the regular aspects of western music no longer appear, or are marginalised - it's not much like "music" in that sense. With Rap, my impression is of a skeletal music. With harmony and melody largely bleached out. It's got this strident vocal delivery, which reduces much of the possibility of expressivity - as well existing in space which isn't singing, yet isn't talking (I think). It's not much like "music" in this sense. So what have you got? With Ayler, raw, unmitigated emotional power, yet of surpassing depth and subtlety. With Rap, also raw power - rooted in naked angularity of the rhythms and the brutal clarity of the vocals, which can be complex intellectually. So you have the potential for a raw, powerful music reaching emotional depths but also conveying complex intellectual ideas. It would be in an area where "music" hasn't reached yet (at least I don't think so). Which is easy to say. Simon Weil

I'm not a rap fan, myself - but when I made my statement that someone should do a rap/Ayleresque soloing fusion, I meant it. I have an instinct that it would work. Neither Rap and Ayler seem much like "music". Simon Weil

There's some grand stuff in this thread. Thanks Guys! At the moment I'm leaning towards Zoot/Zoot!, Warm Tenor and maybe the Michel Legrand album. I have the Lady Day from a preceding obsession with Jimmy Rowles. Also I think I might have something from the Quincy Jones on a compilation. Anyway, I feel a buying splurge coming on. Simon Weil [According to the Oxford Companion to Jazz, Zoot's dates are 1825-1985!]

Listening to "Loose Bloose" for the the Bill Evans thread, I found a bit of unison playing between Evans and the Sims got stuck in my head. In particular, it was something about Sims' tone - like it spoke to something in me. At the moment, I've just got one Zoot record - "For Lady Day". Any recommendations? Simon Weil

Not really the point of the article. But I remember a post on the Jazzgrrls discussion group, from (I think) a woman in the school system (certainly a teacher) on one aspect of this. She said that more than 50% of high school band members were female and wondered where that 50% went. I don't know that one can "go back" to a day when people are less schooled (? the good old days), but I would be a good thing if we could retain some of these women. Not to state the bleedin' obvious... Simon Weil

Well, I think Evans "lack of blues feeling" is BS. Here's something I wrote on rmb a few years ago: I don't think Monk's playing is, at root, blues playing. Simon Weil