Jim R

I remember being exposed to Bennett at some point long, long ago; and I'm pretty familiar with Baker, but I'll have to Google™ on Lewis. Thanks, btw, I think it's always a good thing to mention people who were relatively obscure and/or underappreciated. Just in case you're interested, I stumbled on to this webpage earlier, and found it pretty interesting (some obscure sidemen get some props). Maybe there'll be a discovery or two there for others: One man's favorites...

And by the way, from that era, from that general melting pot, give me some Bill Jennings and Billy Butler, please.

Thanks Allen. Although we may see things a bit differently re Moore the musician, I bow to your wider knowledge of music history, and I understand your perspective. The more I try to examine and discuss things like this while using labels like "rock" and "r&b", the more I'm reluctant to generalize. I just wanted to make sure you weren't overlooking the influence of black guitarists who weren't straight-ahead blues players. In a nutshell.

Yeah, I just kind of looked past that. Were you watching "Psycho" when you posted?

As I say, I don't disagree at all. I guess it's the "simple" factor that kind of underlies my feeling about him getting so much praise heaped upon him. He deserves some of that, but I guess I just see it as a bit overblown at times. When you said "the original strain of rock and roll guitar lineage is...", you seemed to be separating out the white/country lineage (and I know that dot number one- Blind Blake, wasn't white) from the black/blues lineage, to the effect that "rock" guitar was a white phenomenon, and the Chuck Berrys, Ike Turners, Bo Diddleys, etc, belong in a different category. Now that you specify "the early sound of Country/Hillbilly rock and roll guitar", it's a little more clear where you were coming from. I think it was a bit careless to say that "the original strain of rock and roll guitar lineage is..." and proceed to lay out the lineage of just the Country/Hillbilly strain. It seems to me that Scotty Moore was far less an innovator than some of these others, far less talented imo, and the fact that he happened to be the right hand man for Elvis Presley has more to do with his renown than his actual guitar talent. Not that he didn't have some talent.

That should have been unextinguishably soulful... And yeah, I need to compose elsewhere and then paste/post. That's some frustrating stuff. And Jim, I don't think the Kisor bate's on Criss-Cross is it? It's a Japanese-only issue iirc. That's right, JS. What I meant was that I was somewhat of an obsessed fanatic about buying most of their recordings (which happened to be on Criss Cross), and yet I was completely unaware of this CD until now.

Allowing for a certain amount of subjectivity and personal taste here, I won't directly challenge that, but frankly I'm not sure exactly what you're giving him credit for. Was he really the first to do anything? That's a sincere question. I was born in 1956, so I obviously didn't live it when it was happening (the early years, that is). One of the reasons I decided to try to give Elvis' music a chance (again) some years ago was that I had read some comments about Moore's greatness, and being a guitarist and guitar enthusiast, I thought I could have missed something that I could still get some mileage out of. I tried, but I didn't find anything of note. To me, he was a guy who looked solid behind Elvis with his blond L5 (and later with the even flashier Super 400), knew when to change chords, and didn't try to play anything too difficult when he soloed. Very safe and even (dare I say) mundane to my ears. Of course, I never really got around to listening to any early "rock" guitarists (including Chuck Berry) with any real level of discretion until I had thoroughly checked out most of the blues and r&b greats, including guys who were sort of on the edge of being "popular" (albeit with a slightly different audience in general), like Bill Jennings with Louis Jordan, Billy Butler with Bill Doggett, and others. Maybe my attitude toward Moore is somewhat unfair in this respect, but really, just trying to appreciate him for the player he was and the position he was in, I just don't see what the fuss is (was) about. Maybe I should emphasize that I don't see what it IS about... I can imagine what it WAS about (the fact that he was playing to a lot of audiences who had not heard black music). My impression of Scotty has always been that of a humble gentleman, and I don't desire to drag him through any mud. So, I think I'll just say that I find your lineage an odd set of dots to connect; and as far as trying to reproduce the tone, timbre, and phrasing of any guitarist... you and I both know that is always difficult even when we're talking about a relatively simple player. I honestly have never had any desire to copy any aspect of his playing, because I don't think there's a whole lot going on there. He's pleasant to listen to, a decent rhythm guitarist, and was a nice simple backdrop- allowing the spotlight to remain on the energy and iconic good looks of Elvis.

There was one BFT, probably in 2003, where our power went out while I was in my second hour of composing a post. Ever since then, I've been in the habit of assembling the thing in a word processing doc, often before the official threads are started, and then just paste the lists in when the thread is started. Am I the only one who never saw this CD or knew it existed? Was this featured in the sexy album covers thread? Geez, I pretty much bought every Criss Cross disc with these guys on it, and even I was in the dark about this sucker. Wow...

I'm just curious... what prompted you to say that? I think everybody chooses their own approach, and some turn to Google when they're at their wits' end on a particular track. At any rate, I think the only thing that's not considered cool is reading the comments of others before one posts their own. I had the same thought. You've not only got an idea, you've got good ears (unless we're both wrong, that is ).

You might want to check this out too: previous Raney thread

Allowing for a certain amount of subjectivity and personal taste here, I won't directly challenge that, but frankly I'm not sure exactly what you're giving him credit for. Was he really the first to do anything? That's a sincere question. I was born in 1956, so I obviously didn't live it when it was happening (the early years, that is). One of the reasons I decided to try to give Elvis' music a chance (again) some years ago was that I had read some comments about Moore's greatness, and being a guitarist and guitar enthusiast, I thought I could have missed something that I could still get some mileage out of. I tried, but I didn't find anything of note. To me, he was a guy who looked solid behind Elvis with his blond L5 (and later with the even flashier Super 400), knew when to change chords, and didn't try to play anything too difficult when he soloed. Very safe and even (dare I say) mundane to my ears. Of course, I never really got around to listening to any early "rock" guitarists (including Chuck Berry) with any real level of discretion until I had thoroughly checked out most of the blues and r&b greats, including guys who were sort of on the edge of being "popular" (albeit with a slightly different audience in general), like Bill Jennings with Louis Jordan, Billy Butler with Bill Doggett, and others. Maybe my attitude toward Moore is somewhat unfair in this respect, but really, just trying to appreciate him for the player he was and the position he was in, I just don't see what the fuss is (was) about. Maybe I should emphasize that I don't see what it IS about... I can imagine what it WAS about (the fact that he was playing to a lot of audiences who had not heard black music).

The Jordanaires were a very legendary Southern Gospel group. quite apart from their long association with Elvis. Whether or not you can get into that type of thing or not (and for me it\'s a tste I\'m still acquiring - slowly). All I\'m saying is that to know them only from Elvis is to not really know them at all, if not necessarily that to know them is to love them.... And also, post-comeback Elvis used the Sweet Inspirations, not a group to dismiss. But I don't think you're including them. I think I should have been more specific. There's one performance in particular that just makes me cringe, and as I recall (i can't seem to find it on Youtube right now), it was "Hound Dog" on the Sullivan show. I don't really have any problem with them on "Peace In The Valley", or "Love Me", or any others I recall seeing.

I have always felt the same way about Elvis. I've heard the vast majority of his work, and I have rarely been moved or impressed. Not only that, but the praise heaped upon Scotty Moore has always baffled me. I just don't hear anything at all in either his comping or his solos that even seems worthy of mentioning, and it's not just a "chops" thing. To me, Elvis was a guy with charisma who surrounded himself with mediocre talent. The real drag, though, were the background vocalists (especially those cats in the checkered suits on the Sullivan show). Ouch. Next, we'll discuss Buddy Holly.

One important thing not mentioned in Phil's article is that the for the original CC pickups (and those made up through the 1960's, to a lesser extent), cobalt was used in the magnets. Gradually, as it became more scarce and more expensive, it was used less and less, and by the time of the 1970's ES-175/CC, the overwhelming consensus was that the great CC sound had been lost. I don't know what the status of cobalt supply is these days, but it has a tremendous number of uses, and my understanding is that the competition for it had driven the price up. CC pickups are being reproduced (most notably in England), but I haven't heard any of them as of yet. As a sidenote, something similar happened in the glass industry. In the 1930's, in the heyday of Art Deco, cobalt blue glass was all the rage, and was widely used in making mirrors (including coffee table tops, and clock and radio faces). Over the years, it went out of production, and collectors have paid a premium for that color of glass. Just a little cobalt trivia. If anybody has more info about cobalt, I'd love to learn more.

7/4, you're very welcome. You know I enjoy talking guitars. Guys, check this out: Charlie Christian pickup essay Both great pickups, but for my money, there's nothing like a CC.

That's an ES-250, which was a short-lived (1938-1940), fancier version (inlays, binding, tailpiece, 17" body, etc) of the 150. It was basically an experimental model, which went through a number of changes in its short life span. Charlie Christian used a couple of them, T-Bone Walker had one, Tal Farlow had a modified example for awhile, and there were a few others, but those are EXTREMELY rare. I got one (previously owned by Harold Bradley) from George Gruhn in 1990, and at the time he told me that there were probably no more than 20 or so ever built. In my networking, I've only ever seen/heard about a dozen or so.

Well, I was going to say that #14 is this, and now I see that Thom already nailed it.

You sadistic bastard.

Forgot to add... #3: "Battle Hymn Of The Republic".

Disc 2: 1. Interesting blues progression with a twist in the final few bars. I always appreciated hearing these kinds of structural variations when listening to a long stretch of blues material. Keeps things interesting. Never heard this before. 2. I think the title of this is "cute", right? Groovy and swinging band, with some tasty piano work. No guess as to who this is. 3. Yeah, I can dig it. I don't listen to a lot of gospel or gospel-flavored stuff, so this remains a nice change of pace. 10 minutes may be a bit much, though. Could this be Gene Harris? 4. I'll guess Gene Harris playing "You Don't Know Me". 5. "I'm Walkin'". Not Fats Domino... so... Gene Harris? (hey, I learned this trick from Big Al a long time ago.) 6. "Medication"... er, "Meditation"... a version I'm not sure I've heard. Gene Harris? (wait... no). All in all, pretty nicely done by both players. I think I'll need to spin some of these again, just to verify that I suck at blindfold tests. 7. Okay, this one is officially pissing me off. I thought I owned this, and knew basically who was playing (Peter Bernstein on guitar, probably Sam Yahel on organ...). Not only can I not find it in my colleciton, now I can't figure out what this is. It sounds like a Criss Cross date, but I can't find anything that matches. This IS "The Sidewinder", is it not? Sheesh. Okay, maybe it's not on Criss Cross. Arrgghh! Okay, I think I finally found it. Wow, I never heard about this, and it came out in 2003? http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=VACM-1221. Nice track, Dan, even though you cost me a lot of time Googling the damn thing! 8. For such a well-traveled standard like this, I would have hoped for something more interesting. I thought the tenor player kind of messed up the melody. I enjoyed the pianist more than the tenor, but overall not a lot of stars. 9. Hmm... another long unison line (trumpet and bass this time)... a subtheme for this BFT? Unfortunately, the head doesn't grab me at all. Oh well, the changes provide a nice vehicle, and the musicianship is very good, so no major complaints. Just not something I would seek out. 10. Ah, an old tenor favorite... plus Al Cohn. Well, Dan knows that I know that he knows that I know... 11. Never heard this, but it immediately brings to mind the vibe from the Kind Of Blue session. Nice writing. I enjoyed the ensemble parts more than the solos. Thanks DG, this was fun.

Disc 1: 1. Interesting. The first thing I need to figure out is why the sound quality on this seems too good for the 1940's. I've never heard this before, but it seems like I should have. 2. That raspy voice reminds me of Johnny Guitar Watson (not him, however). In this case, it almost sounds like a guy who doesn't sing full time. Not bad, but I don't really feel a need to listen to this one again. 3. Vocal delivery is reminiscent of Charles Brown (not him, but he has a similar sound to my ears). Good stuff. 4. Groovy soul. Sounds like early to mid-60's. I'm pretty sure I've heard this before, but apparently not often enough to have committed it to memory. I have a feeling I'm going to kick myself for not knowing this. 5. I think we all know that voice, although it's not everyday you hear him singing an EKE tune (and without any guitar playing). At any rate, nice... very nice. I think this one was on Crown, circa 1960. 6. Whoa, something happened to the sound quality on this one. Anyway, I own this http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/store/arti...,236393,00.html. 7. Sounds like a Prestige session from the 60's... don't think I own this one. Sounds like "Next time you see me". Don Patterson? 8. There it is again. I always dug this tune, always a big hit at blues festivals. I don't even know who wrote this or recorded it first, but I think this is Junior Parker. 9. Cool beans (or shall I say fruit). Not sure I've ever heard this (blues) artist do this (jazz) tune... which is something in common here with track 5... another blues great doing something a bit different. With Dan, I'm always aware that I could be listening to something rare/unreleased, but it at least I recognized the guitarist... seems that this was Otis's band. Not sure who's playing sax... is that a varitone? 10. I should know the name of this tune... but I've lost it. Anyway, not a personal favorite. Not real keen on the tuba and the New Orleans vibe either, but that's just me. Well played, without a doubt. 11. There's something weird going on for me (listening in iTunes) with the sound on a lot of these. A certain amount of distracting distortion. Anyway, this is pretty tasty... hard to go wrong with a great Horace Silver tune. Fairly standard arrangement, but nice. I don't recognize any of the soloists. 12. Never heard this before. The head seems a little dull to me in terms of the unison lines being so drawn out. I would have preferred at least a bit of harmonic counterpoint... at some point... if you see my point (sorry). Again, I think this is well played. I don't recognize who's blowin'. 13. Like track 12, we have a rather mundane (to my ears) blues melody played as a unison line, albeit this time around with a sax and a trumpet. I find it rather dull... at the moment, anyway. The horns on this have a bit more character, imo, but I'm not getting any strong sense of who they are. Fairly economical piano style. All very polished and swingin' along nicely. I like this a bit better, but not sure I'd cough up any cash for it. 14. Wow, I haven't heard this tune in a long time, and I used to hear it all the time (on KCSM, mainly). Note to self... learn to play this tune. Apparently the aforementioned distortion is at its worst in the sonic range of an alto sax. This guy is good, though, and I'm enjoying this. I need to think more about this one. 15. Another one that's completely new to me. This one has a certain drama that grabbed me from the get-go. I'm not going to venture any guesses here, just going to sit back and enjoy. Thanks, Dan. On to disc 2.

Thanks for the invite, DG. I can do RAR's, so no need to bug Al about hard copies.

The Drifters Lamont Dozier ZZ Top

Joey Nickels!

Hi... Lon? (no more beard?! ). Thanks, it's nice to be back after a rather long break from posting.