Jim R

Great example. There were a few years between those, eh? What about "Stranger In Paradise"... that came from a classical piece, yes?

I don't have "Merry Lee" in my collection, but on the Blakey/Joe Gordon Verve Elite issue it's listed as "Rifftide/Toll Bridge", and credited to Hawkins. It was listed as "Toll Bridge" and credited to Gordon on Gordon's original Emarcy LP. The Verve liners state that it originally came from a 1944 Mary Lou Williams session (under the name of "Lady Be Good", which is the chordal model) and was recorded a year later (nearly a decade before Gordon's and Monk's recordings) by Hawkins. Monk recorded "Hackensack" in May and June of '54, and the Gordon LP was recorded in September of '54. So, in this case (as with "Royal Roost" / "Tenor Madness") it seems that some people at least wait a few years before ripping somebody off! I wonder if Joe Gordon had heard "Hackensack" before he went in to record his album... As I suggested above, it's one thing to copy something fairly simple ("My Sweet Lord", 'Impressions", etc etc), but a ripoff of a fairly distinctive line (like "Lisa" or "Rifftide")... that takes some balls, IMO.

Thanks Mike. My confusion was caused by a failure to edit the track listings in my database after acquiring the newly programmed RVG version of the Dorham Cafe Bohemia.

Mike, Do you mean that "royal roost/rue chaptal" are an older equivalent (yet another example that fits this topic) of tenor madness/sportin' crowd? At first I thought you meant "rr/rc" were the same melodic line as "tenor madness/sportin' crowd". Sorry, I'm confused. So... anybody else had a chance to A/B the Feldman and the Clark?

You remembered right. It's "Sportin' Crowd" (Hank Mobley). I've forgotten the history on that one, but those Cafe Bohemia recordings predated the Rollins studio date by about 6 months...

That's a good example, although the opening line on Shadrack is repeated, whereas on "Mr. PC", it changes in pitch when you go to the IV chord.

Forgive me Lon, but I don't understand what you're saying. I think you meant to say "every time Monk performed Bright Mississippi, it became SGB to your ears"... but even stated that way, it doesn't make sense to me in this context. "Bright Mississippi" is a simplification of the melody of SGB... a "sketch" of the melody of SGB, no? Mark, thanks for mentioning "Tenor Madness". I can't recall which JM tune would correspond, but maybe I'll try to check that out. At any rate, I hope we might examine this a little more closely than just to say "it's common". I don't think it's necessarily "common" for a (relatively) intricate melody like "Lisa" to be given new life (six months after being released) under a different name. BTW, if I sound like I'm out to get Sonny Clark, that's not the point. I'm just intrigued with this, especially the way this recent discovery surprised me.

Lon, no, I'm not just talking about compositions based on the same changes. I'm talking about the use (theft?) of a specific melodic line (in this case, fairly intricate) and renaming it. "My Sweet Lord" (you're cute, as usual, Mark ) was what, 3 notes? And even that was contested in court. In this case I'm talking about a relatively complex/distinctive hard bop melodic line that seems to have been copped (at least in part, and I know the entire tunes are not thoroughly identical) and given a new name. I'd be curious to hear some reactions from people who own both recordings, and hear about other examples. As I said on the other thread, I know this isn't necessarily rare, but all cases are slightly different- not only in terms of the similarities of the tunes, but how far apart they were composed, how well the composers knew each other, etc.

I'm starting this topic as a result of a discovery I just made while posting on the CANNONBALL ADDERLEY/QUINTET PLUS (AOTW) thread. In short, Victor Feldman's tune "Lisa" from that session reminded me strongly of another recording I had, but I couldn't place it. With help from board member Tooter, it occurred to me that it was reminding me of Sonny Clark's "Melody For C", from LEAPIN' AND LOPIN'. The A sections on these two songs sound almost identical to me- the melodies at least (the chordal understructure is different). Sonny Clark's recording followed the Adderley session by about 6 months, FWIW. I've gotta run right now, but I just wanted to get this topic started and see what people think (about this specific comparison, as well as other possible situations that have occurred in jazz over the years).

Yeah, I've noticed that it's been referred to as "melody in c" in a few other places too (a blurb on the True Blue website, as well as Cuscuna's notes for the original CD release of LEAPIN' AND LOPIN'!). I've tried some searches for more information about Clark's version, and haven't found much at all. I found no info about who "C" was... I kind of doubt that it was Cannonball, because I don't know that there was much of a connection there (they never recorded together, I don't think). There are of course many cases of disputed authorship of tunes, but I don't often come across something like this (although I know it does happen). Something about this just seems odd/interesting to me, with both of these tunes coming out in 1961. I may start a separate thread about this, but if anybody else owns both QUINTET PLUS and LEAPIN AND LOPIN, I'd really like to know what you think...

Tooter, thanks for your PM regarding "melody for C". I haven't heard that Cary recording, but as soon as you mentioned that tune, I knew immediately that the one I was thinking of was Sonny Clark's "melody for C" from LEAPIN' AND LOPIN' (Blue Note). I just compared that with "Lisa", and although they're not quite identical, there almost too close for comfort! Not only that, but Sonny Clark's tune was recorded in November of 1961, six months after this Cannonball session. Kind of dubious, if you ask me. Like I say, the tunes are not identical, but check out the similarity in the heads. I'd be interested to hear others opinions on this... Anyway, mystery solved! Thanks Tooter!

Jim R., congratulations for leading us in the right direction on that track 8. I am listening to my record of this piano duo! You guessed right! Drat! This is a first for me: not recognizing a recording I own! Way to go, Jim R (you bathturd!) THAT WAS A FIRST FOR YOU?!?!? Sheesh! It's AL-ready happened to me about 37 times (probably a slight exaggeration). Anyway, you were overdue! So... Al... you OWN that CD, eh? MAN, would I like to hear that sometime... ( )

W-O-W... I'm truly impressed with many of the lists that have been posted. I'm more than a little envious, too! I've seen some greats (more blues than jazz), but not in large quantity... Woody Herman orch (mid 1970's) Count Basie (1981) Sarah Vaughan ('81) George Shearing ('95) Quintet, with Louis Stewart, Steve Nelson, Neil Swainson and Terry Clarke The Crusaders ('74) Albert King ('77) Clarence Gatemouth Brown ('82) Albert Collins (twice, in the early 80's) Little Milton ('80) Jimmy Rogers ('79) Louis Meyers ('79) Luther Tucker ('79) Clifton Chenier ('82) Lloyd Glenn ('81) The last artist ("great" in my opinion, but I won't put him up there with Basie, Vaughan et al) that I used to make a point to go see was Joshua Breakstone, who I saw about four times back in the late '80's/early '90's. After my wife and I had kids, everything changed...

I wonder if you misunderstood him. I've never heard of any of the modern archtop luthiers using rosewood for any body parts (of course it's long been used for fingerboards and bridges). Maybe he was talking about flattops (as Zizala suggested). If he was actually talking about archtops, that would be pretty unusual. The great Jimmy D'Aquisto (legendary apprentice of John D'Angelico) once stated that rosewood "does not belong anywhere on a guitar"...

AMG provides at least one chuckle per visit, it seems.

Wow, it's been awhile since I pulled this one out. Right off the bat, I'm knocked out by Victor Feldman's piano solo on track 1. Feldman had been on my mind recently, when I had been working on Frank Rosolino's tune "Blue Daniel". The earliest recorded versions I have (Cannonball's QUINTET AT THE LIGHTHOUSE, and Shelly Manne AT THE BLACKHAWK V.1) both had Feldman on piano, and I was reminded again how good a pianist he was. Getting a taste of him on both piano and vibes on a session this good is just a treat. Wynton Kelly is always worth hearing- one of my all-time favorite pianists, and with Sam Jones and Louis Hayes behind him, that's about as good as it gets for me. I too like the pacing on this session. I absolutely love "New Delhi". The only other version in my collection was recorded five months after this one- James Clay's DOUBLE DOSE OF SOUL album also on Riverside, and also with Nat, Feldman, Jones, and Hayes. Gotta play that one again when I'm done spinning the Cannonball disc. There's an example of a great jazz tune that doesn't seem to have been covered much. "Lisa" is another great Feldman piece. Strange, but this melody is reminding me strongly of another recording I've heard (I think). I checked my database and found only one other song titled "Lisa", but that's a different tune (Curtis Amy on KATANGA). I'm pretty sure I've heard this melody elsewhere, and now I'm wondering if somebody "borrowed" it (recorded it under another name)... ? Does anybody have another version of this that's credited to Feldman/Zito?

Give me an old guitar. A guitar that's already been played, has some tone and some character. And if you're serious about playing and mean to devote some time to it for years to come, don't skimp. Cheap guitars are cheap for a reason. I've known guys that were always looking for bargains, and had 10 (or even 20) guitars (not to mention amps) at any given time, all of which were cheap, and all of which were (sorry)... garbage. There was always a hunger for another instrument, a better instrument, but rather than saving up for one or two good guitars, they would always go for more cheap stuff. And they would lament the fact that they couldn't afford a nice Gibson or something. Well, if you didn't spend $2,000 a year on all kinds of crap, you WOULD be able to afford something good! I've never understood these guys... That's not to say that you can't get a nice instrument for a great price (used guitars on eBay, for example), but as a general rule, you get what you pay for. Africa Brass posted: Yeah, those "floating bridges" aren't really supposed to float!

Unfortunately I don't own the recording, so this is a bit of a shot in the dark, but I'm wondering if #8 could be this:

Nice job, brownie! B) You've sure got a great ear for piano. I'm surprised by the answer to #7... not sure I ever heard that pianist play that tune. On #6 (just like #12), I just didn't trust myself enough. Alex DID include a "gimmie", and I just didn't want to take it! I haven't looked at all of your links yet... still want to try to solve a few more...

Welcome, Paco, from another fellow-guitarist. I'm kind of an old fart , but our tastes do overlap a little. I love Jimmy Raney (Doug is great too), and that Eddy Louiss Trio disc- the one with Rene Thomas and Kenny Clarke, yes?- is one of my all-time favorites. Pat Martino is a great artist (and a great story regarding his comeback)... ever heard Louis Stewart? He's Irish, and is roughly the same age at Martino (and has similar chops). Dave Stryker is a fine player too- used to work in Stanley Turrentine's band. He also used to post at Jazz Corner, so you might be able to correspond with him there.

I was very happy to see Mickelson get the monkey off his back... FINALLY. It was especially great the way he caught and passed Els with all those birds down the stretch. Only the 4th person to win it with a birdie on #18. Beats the hell out of going to extra holes and having somebody lose it by hitting into a water hazard or into a deep thicket or something. Those consecutive aces were indeed special as well. Only 7 in the history of the tournament, and they get not only two in one round, but ten minutes apart!? It was also cool to see Langer in the hunt for a 3rd green jacket at age 46 (he would have been only the second player - besides Nicklaus- to win in three different decades).

brownie, you're free to proceed any way you wish of course, but I'm just pointing out the procedure that we've used since the beginning. If people decide to "peek" by opening the links, then it's up to them. They will have to decide for themselves whether they want to know the answer or not, but they won't exactly be able to claim "credit" for having come up with the answer, since you will have already answered it first by posting the link(s). I'm not sure if that was part of your concern, or not...? Anyway, part of this whole exercise always involves personal choices and a degree of "will power" (deciding to challenge oneself by posting without peeking at others' posts first; resisting the urge to open links until one is ready to give up trying to solve a track on their own; etc). If you hold off posting your links, someone else may post some of those links before you get the chance... (even though this isn't a formal "competition", you will have lost the opportunity to be the first to answer)...

brownie, if you're sure about a track, just post links to the recordings (like MartyJazz did above). That way, people have the option of looking or not.

E-mail sent...

OH, FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD...