Dr. Rat

Yes the Opies seem to be it. Thanks, Maren. Here's a link to the new edition of The Lore and Language of Schoolchildren for anyone who may be interested. Later in the book there's even a chapter called “Unpopular Children: Jeers and Torments,” no doubt containing a detailed accounting of nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah and its many local variants. --eric

Yet another book question: I am looking for the scene in a book (by Stanley Dance?) where Ellington and Strayhorn collaborate on a score. I beleive it takes place in a train car between dates, and is interestingly informal. Anyone know where this is. Thanks, --eric

I think the white critic/black artist element may be a bit out of place and exploitative (though elsewhere I find this line of argument to be interesting and enlightening). But I think the time is long since past when "Old Blues" stops meaning "Robert Johnson." Personally, I've never thought his music stands out to the degree that his retrospective fame does. How much more ink gets spilled on Johnson that on Patton and House? Or Weldon or McTell or . . . I think we could go on quite a bit. Was Johnson great? Yes. Was he better than his elders and peers? Maybe (personally, I think not). Was he that much better? I think the answer is "no." Not that standout musical figures don't exist, I just don't think Johnson was one of them. Johnson was an important practioner of and innovator within a tradition that existed before him and after him. The crucial factor is his rise to legend status was not the color of the critics, but their desire for a good story to tell about the origins of the blues. Johnson was the vehicle for that story. (Though I do begin to wonder about the race factor, as one of the architects of the Johnson legend was John Hammond, whom I think of as one of the great encouragers of misplaced primitivistic interpretations of black American art. Though he was a lot more than that.)

Cool. This begins to look like what i think I remember. Somebody I was casually acquainted with in grad school gave me the rundown in the smokers' lounge one day (I don't smoke, but I always preferred the smokers' lounge) and let me leaf through the book. I have always cherished this image of a permenant "underground" culture that we all, temporarily, participated in. --eric

Not really ... we could all be living in the Matrix! And try proving we're not. Ok. Back to the conspiracy theories! --eric

Marquis of Queensbury rules? (Of course, you've only got to obey the rules as long as they feel right to you) --eric

What I say is the truth. What these other guys say, it might be amusing, but unless it exactly corresponds to what I say, it is untrue.

No, I think something more like the book in the photo, but I don't think this is THE one I was thinking of, but anyhow

Serious question from a non-Christian: Exactly how "pre-ordained" was it? I mean, I know there is a lot of debate regarding free will, etc., in religion ... how do Christians who believe in free will reconcile that with the idea this was all pre-ordained? It isn't easy! Well, theologically the Catholics end up throwing it into the "mystery" category, but not before all kinds of theo-philosophical gymnastics. Before the emergence of football, this was the big sport in Christian Europe. --eric

Wait for it now . . .

This reminds me, There's a book on children's culture--arguing that many things like this get passed down over the generations from child to child withOUT MUCH (edit) intervention by adults. Does anybody know it? I can't rember the title or author. --eric

I think the Gnostics invented the phrase "If you have to ask, you'll never know." --eric

Well, I'm just trying to say that having control over a situation, having created every element of that situation, having pre-ordained that situation for symbolic purposes--that's different than having the opportunity to defend yourself. Dispensing blame here just seems complete beside the point. --eric

Wow good point Alex. If someone has the power to defend themselves but chooses not to (like, say a black belt martial artist) it absolves their murderer of the responsibility of the crime. I beleive an omniscient, omnipotent deity will admit of no metaphorical substitutes, black belt or not.

I've been really struggling lately. I keep obsessing on the thought that according to my faith, my son could end up in Hell. If that happened, there is no way I could hold nothing but hatred towards God. Maybe it's time to read some of the Nag Hammidi texts again... When I look at the provenance of religious strictures and texts, (how, historically, they get made) I think you've got to question deeply the "rule" side of conflicts like this. Strict Catholics (what I'm most familiar with) always press the "If you don't have the rules, you don't have the religion" line, but there has to be more to the religion than that. I have some respect for spirituality--my uncle, whom I admire a lot, is deeply religious--but I think sometimes you get to break the rules for the right reasons (not, say, because you are lazy or can't control yourself, but for good reasons). I think Christianity is all about changing the rules, anyhow. Which is why my uncle eats shellfish -- though gout may change him!

You're making him sound like a precursor of Bill Gates. Kind of spiritual monopoly capitalism or something. We need a law suit. Simon Weil Alright, Bill Gates, too. Now we're getting somewhere. --eric

And there he established the masons who have been in control of world history fro the past 2000 years? I knew it! --eric

isn't all of this just in your perception? just like mine doesn't allow me to hear anything of what you are writing about? I have the impression you take the "feminin-masculin" thing as something everyone can observe; that my dislike of Miles's tone has something to do with its feminin character. It doesn't. Sorry, your thread has gotten away from you! You are an abberant case we'll account for later. Everyone else is obsessed with sex.

Yeah, I think that's what ambiguity refers to: our inability to resolve. The ambiguity probably has a source in some quality of Miles's, but it doesn't necessarily have a two faced or unclear quality in itself. But I DO think aside from ambiguity we perceive, Miles had an ambivalent relationship with "the establishment" as a public figure, but I am of a mind that his artistic expression was not at all ambivalent, but represented, as you say, both at the same time. --eric

Well, Christ isn't a name, it's more like a soubriquet (sp?). Sort of like asking why Mohammed Ali insisted on being "THE Greatest." Unfortunately, we're no longer allowed to aspire to this soubriquet: NO one will ever be "The Carbondale Christ," for instance. --eric

Well, ok, maybe, but... My REAL point was that the "mystique" and the music are at some point, inextricably bound, that there's more to the "mystique" than a cleverly calculated manipulation of imagery and such, that there's a REAL basis for it (which is really pretty rare), and that that basis is one which leads to some pretty interesting, and deeply personal, places if you want to go there with it. I also find it interesting that Miles & Prez share many of the same qualities in their playing, but that nobody (these days anyway, t'wasn't always so) expresses reservations about them in Prez, which I think is a reflection of some folks' more "macho" conception of the "essence" of the trumpet's true "nature", as opposed to how the same people view the tenor. There's room in a lot of people's mind for qualities on some instruments that they don't care to hear on others. That, I find interesting for many reasons. But no satire intended, honestly! OK. I suppose I should take your word for it! Now, bringing in Lester actually sort of takes us away from the sexual end of things, because Lester's image in about as sexually ambiguous as Miles'. So it was some other issue that was crucial or sex in combination with something(s) else. You mention the trumpet vs. sax thing, and I think that probably accounts for some of the difefrences between waht we tend to think of Lester and what we tend to think of Miles. My idea now is that another part of it was Lester's unambiguous embrace of outsider status, and Miles' very, very ambiguous relationship with money, power and "the establishment" (which comes through both in his image and in his music--part of his drive to be musically significant was his refusal of the outsider role) that might be what really puts some folks off.

No one need speak for our world champeen poster, of course, and I do suppose we male posters ought to be somewhat abashed at how easily we fall into talk of sexual organs and boogers (see other thread) and such, but I think JSngry's point is that some of the reaction against Davis's sound is based on a sort of jazz fan's machismo and the sex-organ talk was intended as satire (with a bit of pure mischief thrown in for good measure). That's my read, anyhow, --eric

I am wondering whether "nyah nyah/ nyah-nyah nyah" is recognized universally as a taunt? Can I go to the wilds of New Guinea and thus mock a native of some hitherto undiscovered tribe when he spills his manioc root beer? --eric

C'mon! Where's the boogers? --eric

I don't have any Mosaics. The station has a few, but I don't find I'm drawn to them that often. I am not a completist, generally speaking. I would buy the Commodore set, and there's a few others I would probably spring for, but in many cases I feel the Mosaic sets are more than I need or want (every alternate take, etc.). Though the notes are great, and the overall feel of the product is lavish--makes you feel your money is well spent. But I'd rather dig through bins and find whatever I happen upon. More of an adventure that way. --eric