Mark Stryker

Always loved this track -- especially with the studio chatter that immediately precedes it on the LP -- used to have it on my answering machine in college. More discussion here:

Not looking to revive this thread but only to pause for a moment to remember both Joe Henderson and Johnny Griffin on their birthday (April 24).

Hoping Verlander can shut up the Texas bats tonight. Gonna be cold here. Probably in the 40s. Coda: After last fall and the first two games of this series, I'm starting to develop quite an aversion to the Rangers.

Well, see, that's what is kind of lost by some, that you can be on top of the beat and behind the beat, anywhere, really, as long as you stay in the beat and stay connected, it'll all be good. Ride it where best suits you, but by god, ride that motherfucker somewhere, don't be letting it get away, lest of all in such a way that you're just standing there letting it turn the corner while you keep heading straight ahead into the wall! And not just "the beat", either. The pulse, and not just of music! And yes, Roland Hanna was superb in his contributions. Saul Goode, he was. Gotta wonder waht Chick Corea sounded like subbing in the band, as mentioned in the liners. Wonder if he took the chances offered or just role-played. Gotta think Chick took the chances -- that's who he is, plus that's what Thad wanted, what he encouraged, what he wrote and, lo, what he usually got from those around him. Related point: Lots of guys in that band over the years never sounded better than when they were in that band. Ain't no accident. Thad was a m.f. on every level.

Jim: You mean "Central Park North" (not "West"). A slip of the lip can sink a ship ...

Finally got a copy of the set, don't notice too much of a difference with the reverb on the first three albums, but those last two...yeah, this is so much better. I like the original's sond, but this is nice and clear, sounds like a big band instead of a "big band record", if you know what I mean. And no matter what else, Richard Davis is Mr. Smile Inducer all over this thing, and Mel is his ginning co-conspirator. God bless 'em both for being there and doing that. It's a really w-i-d-e beat. Davis way on top, Mel on the backside, but in some kind of of perfect balance, so they form this big 'ole moving chair with front and back legs moving ahead in unison with the whole band riding on the cushion in the middle. And don't forget Roland ...

Tonight: Saxophonist Azar Lawrence Quintet featuring Jeff (Tain) Watts on drums, Benito Gonzalez in piano, Essiet Essiet on bass and Gilbert Castellanos on trumpet. Jazz Cafe at Music Hall in downtown Detroit. I've never heard Lawrence live. Gonzalez plays out of a McCoy bag and has impressed me on record, most recently on the new Kenny Garrett disc, but haven't heard him live either that I can recall. Trumpeter is new to me.

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/rats-cocaine-love-miles-davis-dumb-animal-research-paid-tax-dollars-article-1.1063528?localLinksEnabled=false Give the writer credit for working a reference to "Kind of Blue" into the lead but subtract bona fides for not being hip enough to know that Eddie Cleanhead Vinson wrote "Four."

On deadline on a review (Bizet's "The Pearl Fishers" of all things), so no time to digest and respond to Larry at this point. Re: Allen: I withdraw the original charge of snarky in favor of "satiric post delivered with perhaps a soupcon of crotchetiness." "Better?" he asked, snarkily

Fasstrack -- Actually, I don's see anyone "slamming" Herbie's forthcoming book, unless you count Allen's initial post expressing his dislike for Hancock in his own snarky way. But that post actually launched the rest of this thread, which at least for me, evolved into a stimulating discussion about Hancock's strengths and weaknesses, stylistic trademarks and the larger frame (musical and cultural) in which his music exists. It's been a vigorous back and forth between those of us who really champion Hancock and those who have greater reservations. I think folks on both sides of the aisle have gotten some interesting things to think about. Larry -- I hear what you're saying: That a harmony-first mentality is effectively leading to the creation of not very effective melodies that exist not as organic entities conceived in unison with rhythm and harmony but as a mere "filling out" of the chords. Right? This can be a chicken and egg discussion but it can be an issue. "Lick" players often think this way. They see the chord and plug in the scale/pattern that fits. But the way all of this breaks down in the brain and comes together on the bandstand is complicated and fluid, with sophisticated players accessing what their ears tell them to play in a web of interconnected decisions, impulses and intuitions. But to go back: the primacy of melody. Here's an interesting post from Dave Liebman a few years ago talking about the Lee Konitz/Andy Hamilton book in which he kicks around some of this. I think it's relevant to what you've been arguing. IT'S ALL ABOUT MELODY I was interviewed by author Andy Hamilton for his new book on Lee Konitz which I just read cover to cover-a fantastic document_ First of all the format is very interesting. It consists of an over two hundred page interview of Lee covering different stages of his career with comments by other musicians interspersed. Konitz is known in the biz as a very honest, outspoken and verbal person with an ability to cut to the chase when he comments on almost any subject. He is merciless in his opinions (being eighty gives you that right I suppose), highly judgmental (on himself as well), yet very clear and able to back up his comments with plausible explanations. I have always felt that musicians are the best sources for review and comment on others in the field, as long as they keep it objective, include comprehensible musical evaluations with of course nothing personal. Lee does just that. For example he admired Stan Getz except when he "pushed" his sound in the upper register, an observation I absolutely agree with. He is equally critical about himself, mentioning among other things perpetual intonation problems as well as a dislike of playing very fast tempos for example. But the major component of Lee's aesthetic is his absolute allegiance and emphasis on melody making as the essence of improvisation, a view which over the years, I as well increasingly subscribe to. My generation especially was entranced by harmony. I guess with my book on the subject, I am a prime target for what I am about to say. It was in essence "Giant Steps" which launched many of my peers on that path (or in some cases, a completely reactive "free" of harmonic content style). I was and still am entranced by the richness of color and its subsequent emotional power that I hear and feel from deep harmony as played to such a high level in the mid 60's by specifically Hancock, Tyner and Corea. The same could be said about at a great deal of 20th century classical repertoire with Bartok, Scriabin, Shostakovich, etc., leading the way. My long relationship with pianist Richie Beirach has been predicated to a large part on harmony, which entices the intellect by challenging one to understand and use it. Naturally, it is also a bottomless pit of discovery with unending combinations. Therefore the trap!! In jazz specifically, rhythm is still king. Without some aspect of swing, the core of the tradition is not present. What constitutes "swing" is a separate discussion, but suffice to say there are numerous ways that in my opinion music can so call "swing." But ultimately, the supremacy of melody has to be acknowledged. As a consequence of its being universal, timeless (beyond style and even culture), with the ability to cut to the core of a listener's visceral reaction to the experience of hearing music as a whole, one must deal with it. As I understand better now, when I hear someone like Chet Baker or Lee play to name two examples, inventing a SPONTANEOUS melody, set in a "swinging" feel as we are expected to do in jazz improvisation, I am duly impressed. In the final analysis harmony shades and supports melody, hopefully enhancing its intrinsic beauty and depth. Of course, as I discuss in my class at Manhattan School of Music on the subject, one's personal judgment as to what constitutes a "good" or a "lyrical" melody are quite subjective. This perception is affected by one's listening experience and in this case, culture, etc., hence an area of discussion always open to analysis and discourse. One way of the other, creating a good melody stands as a crowning achievement, be it written or improvised.

Pete -- thanks for posting those McCoy videos. Burnin'. His left hand comes down like a jackhammer here. Anybody know what kind of personal relationship Herbie and McCoy had? Friendly? Distant? Competitive? Admirers of each other? I've never asked either how they viewed the other, but would be interseting to know, especially during the '60s, when they were the leading figures, holding down the two most prestigious piano chairs in contemporary jazz, and appearing on every other recording on Blue Note. I recall reading once that Herbie got a copy of Nicolas Slonimsky's "Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns" after hearing that McCoy was practicing out of it (McCoy got it from Trane.) As an aside, I did once ask Herbie if he ever played with Coltrane and the answer, regrettably, was no. He did say that once when he was playing the Vanguard with Miles, he saw that Trane was in the club listening. Herbie didn't get a chance to talk to him, but Miles told the band that Trane had really dug it and that he had told Miles that he was going to come back the next night and sit in. Hearing this, Herbie said he went home and stayed up most of the night practicing McCoy's vocabularly of 4th voicings, etc., in preparation. However, when the next night came, Trane didn't show.

Re: McCoy on Milestone. To be clear, I do really like the earlier Milestones with Fortune and Lawrence, and especially love "Enlightment" (Walk Spirit, Talk Spirit" -- Yeah!!) Re: Jim's VSOP point. There's a difference between the macro -- this band will reunite 4/5ths of the Miles quintet and deal with that repertoire -- and the micro, as in when Herbie's solo starts on any particular tune does what come out sound preplanned or freshly in the moment. Still, it's certianly true that macro decisions can present such a strictly prescribed frame that it can overwhelm whatever micro spontaneity might arise in the execution. I have mixed feelings about VSOP, but this isn't one of my issues. Also, I don't know what' more troubling: That you wrote, "but we're not talking about that then, we're talking about another then, when then then was the now," or that I can actually follow the train of thought.

Re: "OTOH, about McCoy, weren't the glories to come in good part because he stepped away from his version of patterned glassiness and became much more rhythmically and harmonically turbulent and in the moment? (Albeit, in later McCoy rhythmic and harmonic turbulence were essentially one." Hmm. I would separate the idea of "patterns" from the other concepts. Later McCoy is indeed much more texturally dense and harmonically and rhythmically turbulent, but in some ways the music is actually more pattern oriented because it relies even more on ideas carved from endlessly juggled melodic-rhythmic cells derived from pentatonic scales. Is later McCoy more in the moment than early McCoy? Never thought of it that way but's he's definitely more volatile and freer in many ways. But you could also say it's a lot more congested too and perhaps not as melodic. For the record, I love McCoy from all periods but some of the Milestone LPs do reach a saturation point in terms of density for me. I remember breathing a sigh of relief when he returned to a trio format for his working band. His own style lightened a little bit, but the bigger impact I think was from getting rid of other horns and percussion to unclog the arteries.

Mark -- I feel I was wrongish in that review in pointing so much toward Coltrane (pianists are by and large pianists, no?), and certainly I was off about McCoy, whose finest work was yet to come. Herbie the accompanist with Miles et al. was something else, but I admit to never having been that interested in most Herbie piano solos (an exception would be one track on that terrific Blue Note Bobby Hutcherson quartet album with Albert Stinson and Joe Chambers) because they so often seem to ... I don't know, rather pre-determined and "glassy" to me. The concept, so to speak, and the execution seem to separate; not much sense of in the moment (but I can see where that might be a partial goal on his part). The electronic Herbie is a whole other ballgame, I would say. P.S. OTOH, about McCoy, weren't the glories to come in good part because he stepped away from his version of patterned glassiness and became much more rhythmically and harmonically turbulent and in the moment? (Albeit, in later McCoy rhythmic and harmonic turbulence were essentially one.) I understand the idea of "glassiness" but would suggest that relates to Herbie's impressionistic touch and harmony. Perhaps your aesthetic tastes lay elsewhere and "Speak Like a Child" in particular emphasizes the qualities you respond to the least, which are also italicized by what Jim identified earlier as an unusually gauzy recording mix for Blue Note. Is it a coincidence that you have always had issues with Bill Evans who has similar impressionistic qualities and who influenced Herbie in those areas?)The disconnect you feel between concept and execution might be a registering of the intellectualism in Herbie's playing that to you sounds too on the surface and thus hits you as overly pre-determined. Forgive the armchair deconstruction of your analysis. I don't hear it this way at all. For me Herbie is one of the most truly spontaneous improvisers in jazz. When he starts a solo, to a degree unusual even in an art based on in-the-moment invention, you really don't know what's about to happen. Now, obviously, he's incredibly studied on some level and has a language that he employs, but he is in no way a "lick" or "pattern" player" in the sense of constructing solos out of pre-practiced materials or applying them in an overly studied way. (Which is not to say patterns don't sometimes crop up as they do in everybody's playing.) Miles used to tell the guys, "I pay you to practice on the bandstand." I think Herbie exemplifies that quality in the best sense. For me, Hancock's achievement was to reconcile a bunch of previously disparate pianism -- impressionistic harmony and refined touch of Bill Evans, swinging momentum of Bud Powell, drama of Ahmad Jamal, funkiness of Horace Silver and ebullient bounce of Wynton Kelly and Red Garland. That synthesis then becomes a new and highly influential template, enriched by Herbie's own newly advanced harmonic palette, his linear invention, his rhythmic independence and, again, his spontaneity. I'm in no way claiming his infallibility. I recognize the track record gets less consistent in more recent decades, the issues of taste, etc. I also know a good many people, including some great musicians, who respect Herbie more than they love him and who have never been as emotionally moved by his work as they are by, well, McCoy for starters. I also recognize that someone's weaknesses are often lodged inside their strengths and vice versa. I'm just just trying to articulate what it is that I'm responding to, and with Herbie it's a lot. At his frequent best I find him more stimulating and satisfying than any other pianist in the contemporary post-bop idiom. There is also a remarkable diversity, an adaptibility, that's worth noting. Here are two sideman appearances that illustrate the range. I think he sounds great in both on every level but would particularly note the variety of phrasing and rhythm and the spontaneity elements since that's what started all of this in the first place. As always, everyone's mileage may vary. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CXsIMakAJo

Just in after a long night of wildly diverse music -- free music from Matthew Shipp Trio in one spot, followed by straight-ahead music from bassist Rodney Whitaker and Co. at a another. A good night in Detroit. But quickly: I think Larry's initial revue is misguided as it relates to Herbie and McCoy, though I see where he's going and admire his chutzpah to put it all out there and I do on some level agree with the ideas expressed in his response to the letter writer. who, by the way, I also don't think is as necessarily misguided as Jim suggests. But here's what's more interesting to me at 3:30 a.m. I am 95% sure that one Robert Budson is "Buddy" Budson, a fine Detroit pianist who is about Larry's age and who is still working productively here (and married to a good singer named Ursula Walker). I will certainly ask him about this next time I see him. Man, sometimes the world is very, very small.

On the topic of the writing on "Speak Like a Child," I have heard/read in various places that Thad Jones, who was on the date, had a hand in the arrangments. Anybody know the details? Mickey Roker in an interview with Ethan Iverson said straight out that Thad wrote the charts, but I don't know exactly how to take that. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if he helped on some level. Herbie was new to game of writing for horns in that particular concept so just as a practical matter of getting certain notes/voicings to speak, he would've been open to polishing in the rehearsals. A topic I'd ask Herbie about if I get another chance.

Leaving aside "Speak Like a Child" I might offer these in rebuttal: Wayne Shorter's "Infant Eyes," Robert Schumann's "Kinderszenen, Op. 15" ("Scenes from Childhood"), Debussy's "Children's Corner," Stevie Wonder's "Isn't She Lovely," Monk's "Little Rootie Tootie." I think "Baby Got Back" and "Baby You Can Drive My Car" are coming from a different place.

I've always thought that cover design was damned cool - and the music inside it just as good. I reviewed "Speak Like Child" for Down Beat when it came out and gave it a mere two-and-a-half stars! Seemed rather bland to me. Have you listened to it more recently and, if yes, has your opinion changed? No, haven't listened recently. Will do soon. P.S. Don't have time right now to find (if I even can) and type out my ancient review, but that sense of blandness IIRC had to do mostly with the music's lack of rhythmic and harmonic and timbral interest (IMO of course). But then in those areas one man's relative lack of interesting material can be another man's sublimity. You may have been wrong but still pretty impressive given that you were probably only 12 years old at the time, right?

Personally, I like the record but find that I don't return to it all that often compared to, say, "Empyrean Isles" and "Maiden Voyage," which are definitive, or the early Mwandishi albums that take the germinating ideas on "Speak Like a Child" to a completely new level of authority. "Speak Like a Child" is a transitional record, pointing toward the Mwandishi band in the writing but without a working group to fully explore its implications or merge the writing and improvising into something seamless. Also, I've always wondered about the choice of Mickey Roker on drums, who sounds ok and is stretching in terms of his own playing but lacks the looser approach to time and interactive qualities that a Tony Williams, Joe Chambers or a young Jack DeJohnette would have brought to this idiom. Having said that, Herbie's own playing here pretty consistently knocks me out. 3 1/2 stars overall on a high historical standard, but 4 for Herbie's playing and the compositions.

I've always thought that cover design was damned cool - and the music inside it just as good. I reviewed "Speak Like Child" for Down Beat when it came out and gave it a mere two-and-a-half stars! Seemed rather bland to me. Have you listened to it more recently and, if yes, has your opinion changed?

Just for the record, I too would pass on a song called "I Support Genocide" based on the title, unless, perhaps, there was a satiric intent ala "Springtime for Hitler." On the other hand, I now prefer to avoid Mel Gibson movies because it seems clear that he considers "I Support Genocide" by The Arayan Nation to be a great anthem. Good actor though ...

Did the three great mid '70s LPs by Sonny Fortune ever appear on CD? I loved these when I was younger but haven't listened to them for a long time. Got reminded of them today and wondering how they've held up. I need to find a moment to check them out again. Used to play the tune "In Waves of Dreams" ... also loved those Horizon gatefold jackets with lead sheets, transcriptions, mix diagrams, etc. Totally cool. Long Before Our Mothers Cried (Strata-East) Awakening (A&M Horizon) Waves of Dreams (A&M Horizon)

I think it's a strong record. Kenny's best in a while.

That's committment On this particular point, I once asked Herbie about being married all of these years to the same person, when the rigors of the music business, the road, etc., had led to so many divorces and broken relationships. He said (and I'm slightly paraphrasing here since I don't have access to notes). "Each of us is responsible for our own happiness." I thought that was a really interesting answer and wondered the extent to which it might reflect his Buddhist beliefs (or maybe it's just dime-store pyschology found in the pages of Cosmo between perfume ads). But his larger point, that placing the responsibility for your own happiness on the other person in a relationship leads to problems, is something I've never forgotten.

Nobody on CTI was occupying a progressive or conceptual space in the public's mind. Hancock however, was always considered a 'progressive' musician, especially by those with more of a foot in the rock camp, even up to his involvement with Laswell. Is this what your beef is? That he was essentially a conservative musician, who should not be afforded any more privileged status than the more blatantly commercial CTI side of Fusion. The 'title' Speak Like A Child, reflects the 'Picasso syndrome', that plagued art and music still caught up in Modernist concepts. Ornette was also responsible for this. The music was ahead of the words and concepts, and this reflects the sometimes embarrassing titles and texts used by some musicians (and labels) to represent and frame the music - when it wasn't being marketed to only a Soul Jazz audience. Hancock was not alone in this, and probably didn't spend as much time thinking through the conceptualisation of his words. Not as much as Joyce anyway First of all, let's wish Herbie a happy 72nd birthday. (Born April 12, 1940) Now, Allen: In the immortal words of Jeff Spicoli, "Hey, dude, what's your problem?!" Are you saying you've never listened to the record because you don't like the title or are you saying you heard it once but thought the title was so dumb you swore off it forevermore? Either way I'm having a hard time processing. Not liking the music is certainly legitimate, but using the title as a sign of intellectual failure when the music itself is remarkably sophisticated on every level seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water and all that. But, ok, we all live in the world we choose to live in. But for me, I want "Speak Like a Child" as part of my soundtrack options (not to mention the rest of the Blue Notes.) Headhunters, too, for that matter, especially the absolutely killin' live double album from Japan called "Flood." Also, all the Mwandishi band music and much of the later work too -- but certainly not all and I would of course admit he's produced a lot of schlock along the way and that, on the whole, the records in recent decades have not been as satisfying as the live performances that I've heard. But there are exceptions -- I thought the live record with Brecker and Hargrove, etc. was a great jazz recording and I thought the Joni Mitchell record was a great pop record. But back to the title , which I rather like or at least don't see as any more problematic than, say, "Let My Children Hear Music," "A Child is Born," or "Inka Dinka Doo." Herbie is quoted in the liner notes (by Nat Hentoff) that the title came from Frank Wolff: "It's a result of a picture that a friend of mine, David Blythewood, took. I dug it so much I brought it to Frank for use as the cover for this album. Frank said it was so evocative a photography becasue of the innocence and naivete in it. And so I started thinking about the quality of innocence when I was writing this song. Clearly the music doesn't sound too much like what's going on today -- war, riots, the stock market getting busted up. And the reason it doesn't I realized is that I'm optimistic. I believe in hope and peace and love. It's not that I'm blind to what's going on, but I feel this music is a foward look into what could be a bright future. The philosophy represented in this number, and to a large extent in the album as a while, is child-like. But not childish. By that I mean there are certain elements of childhood we lose and wish we could have back -- purity, spontaneity. When they do return to us, we're at our best. So what I'm telling the world is: Speak like a child. Thank and feel in terms of hope and the possibilitiesl of making ourselves less impure." Ok, you might find this all a little too precious and embarassing (I don't), but even if you do, I would suggest, contrary to Freelancer above, that Herbie certainly has thought through pretty deeply the conceptualism behind the words.