Steve Reynolds

What is swing? What is free jazz? peace and blessings

AEC: Les Stances a Sophie Braxton: Dortmund (Quartet) 1976 Roscoe Mitchell: Old/Quartet And the bonus recording is simply my favorite Fred Anderson record with only Fred from the AACM: Blue Winter

Can anybody discuss the actual music? How does the quartet function differently with Blackwell? Is there a difference between the 1959 dates and the later dates? How about compared to the later blue notes? Lordy fucking Lordy

My idea regarding the word or descriptor "timeless" is that an artist's work in the non linear continuum can become timeless from the perspective of his or her work in the 90's, 00's or 10's might all meld together as one or almost be interchangeable despite ironically that musician growing or changing throughout that time. It might seem incongruous but I think there is some truth to it. Ellery Eskelin's more recent music or Gerry Hemingway's more recent music might be different in some ways than it was in the past - but it is still all of the same person. Just as stages in the overall musical arc have been broken or mixed around, so it goes with musicians. It may seem the same or it may not. I hear Drake's drumming as altered from 15 years ago - not sure but I think so. I imagine when Hemingway reprises (hopefully) some of those great 90's pieces on August 1st that they will be as fresh as they were 15 to 20 years ago - but they won't be the same. That quartet/quintet music to my ears is "timeless" whether anyone is listening to it in a hundred years. Jazz fans today - even serious ones - have not even listened to it yet. Standing on a Whale Fishing for Minnows

You know that for me, I really don't care if it is called jazz or not. Certainly there are strains of SME (as one example) that stretch or even break some line between jazz and something else. What we agree on is that it is radically different. The "swing" element of the drummer and bassist is deliberately eliminated thereby obfuscating or disowning any seeming connection to the great American jazz tradition. What has happened is that some of the later (or second generation) improvisors have reconnected some jazz influences back into the music. Paul Dunmall and Mark Sanders are two examples - listen to Mujician's Birdman to hear a clear free jazz recording that has rock and EFI influences. There are many recordings/musicians/bands that cannot be pigeonholed as Clifford states above. The AMM story is purely one on another plane where the music is almost anti-jazz - yet some musicians in or associated with the group over the past almost 50 years play jazz or jazz related music(s).

In my view, EFI was a direct result of certain musicians deliberately separating what they were doing from the jazz tradition. Deliberately not playing the rhythmic and melodic devices that were still part and parcel of the more traditional American Free Jazz scene/movement at that time. So severe a break it was (looking at it in hindsight), it really was a factor in breaking the music up into different lineages. I have always thought of Evan Parker as a post Coltrane tenor saxophonist whose history/career ran independently of guys like Frank Wright, Charles Brackeen - and later on David Murray or Joe Lovano. There was almost no connection between this musicians except for Derek Bailey's Company interacting with some of the more outré American jazz guys like Braxton, Lewis and Zorn. Maybe I am looking at it more symbolically than it was in actuality, but EFI in some ways was the first purely radical improvisational movement that reacted against the tradition - with efforts not to incorporate forms that were pretty much a given in any sort of jazz - from trad to free jazz of that era. Now there are many musics within musics that add/subtract elements from all sorts or parts of the tradition. This focus and "narrowness" of approach opened up a timelessness in much of that music. A timelessness that exists in the best of all music. Yeah, I know there was an attempt to radically redefine improvisation on their local, white (importantly) terms. However, I take its actualization on those terms with some grains of salt. Each case is different, too - there's a fairly wide gulf between, say, "Collective Calls" and the Schlippenbach Trio/Quartet. One could say the same about AMM of the Gare/Prévost persuasion (jazz) and the Cardew/Rowe persuasion (aleatoric and heavily electro-acoustic), and I find the SME to be very much jazz music, even at its most abstract. I also find pretty much all of it to be jazz music. I do think my (our collective?) ears may have been opened/altered/assuaged over years of listening to better hear things like Quintessence as a jazz record. Place us in 1971 or 1972 or 1973 being there and one wonders what we are thinking or hearing. We all know friends who were listening heavily to the Loft scene at that time and may have been a bit exposed to Bailey, Parker, Stevens et al - but that exposure was very limited at that time. Would love to have experienced being involved in the local scene in 1972 and then taking a plane to hear Schlippenbach Trio and/or Tony Oxley playing those tunes with Derek Bailey and see how I would have responded to that. It is violently different music - just as to me - EAI is radically different than any other improvisation I had heard before Weather Sky or Schnee or Dach.

In my view, EFI was a direct result of certain musicians deliberately separating what they were doing from the jazz tradition. Deliberately not playing the rhythmic and melodic devices that were still part and parcel of the more traditional American Free Jazz scene/movement at that time. So severe a break it was (looking at it in hindsight), it really was a factor in breaking the music up into different lineages. I have always thought of Evan Parker as a post Coltrane tenor saxophonist whose history/career ran independently of guys like Frank Wright, Charles Brackeen - and later on David Murray or Joe Lovano. There was almost no connection between this musicians except for Derek Bailey's Company interacting with some of the more outré American jazz guys like Braxton, Lewis and Zorn. Maybe I am looking at it more symbolically than it was in actuality, but EFI in some ways was the first purely radical improvisational movement that reacted against the tradition - with efforts not to incorporate forms that were pretty much a given in any sort of jazz - from trad to free jazz of that era. Now there are many musics within musics that add/subtract elements from all sorts or parts of the tradition. This focus and "narrowness" of approach opened up a timelessness in much of that music. A timelessness that exists in the best of all music.

I was at two of the earlier festivals - maybe 1997 or 1998??? Saw Max Roach solo, Randy Weston's African Rhythms, Jimmy Heath Big Band, Milt Jackson Quartet and Benny Carter (with Al Grey) Those were the highlights. The highlight was and remains in my head and heart was seeing and hearing Benny Carter - I think he was 89 or 90

I like this post, Allen The lack of a lineage in this music IMO started in force with what is now (maybe historically) termed European Free Improvisation (EFI) Up until that point there was still much cross pollination within/between the "mainstream" and "free jazz" camps/viewpoints. Art Taylor and Philly Joe Jones as some famous example of classic jazz drummers consorting with the outcats. Sure we have later example like Ed Thigpen playing in John Lindeberg's stellar 1990's groups or even now Billy Hart making an appearance with the Maneri/Ban quintet but for all intents and purposes, there have been a split or splits between different strains of jazz or improvisational music. It has become more notable especially within the mainstream that the avant-garde musicians are rarely or ever included within whatever continues to exist in that area. It was notable that Paul Motian would include younger musicians from various backgrounds in his ensembles no matter what their connection to the lineage was. Much less true for the stalwart mainstream musicians. Same guys, same frameworks, therefore to my ears, very little real excitement. The excitement and innovation occurs on the margins. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I remember first hearing Ellery Eskelin's trio with Andrea Parkins and Jim Black. Live and on record. Very fresh, exciting and truly new. Music as exciting as that does exist. As Allen mentioned it is hard to find the needles in the haystacks. Most of the musicians I follow closer than others still put out recordings that don't measure up. Self editing seems to have always been a problem with recorded jazz. Look at some of the very rote 1950's blowing sessions. Some of those that are collected with some fervor!!! I have found that live shows by great musicians are pretty typically pretty damn great.

I recently read that he was suffering. The memories of discovering Flying Teapot, Angel's Egg and You back in ~ 1980 or so are priceless. And my favorite - the 1976 Live recording Vive le Gong - Gong est Mort - with some powerhouse performances of the true Gong classics I think I'm buying the farewell recording just because..... RIP to a true free spirit,,,,

My pal Travis is fired up to see Open Loose on April 25th. When it comes down to it, Bev is correct - it's a false narrative. The actual music being played (at least the sort of current jazz I'm most interested in) can be astounding, exciting, original, innovative or all of the above. What is missing is many jazz fans don't see enough live jazz to realize the vibrancy of the current music and musicians. So what if it is played in small rooms. Well of course it would be nice - but pretty sad jazz listeners don't take advantage to see great bands/musicians playing in small rooms. Then they would play more often and in larger rooms. Don't give me the $$ angle. We have listeners here paying fortunes building collections of music from the past who rarely support the music where it lives and where is best heard - up close and personal in live settings Giants Walk this Earth Get Ready to Receive Yourself

Electro Acoustic Improvisation is *much* less popular than jazz

What if a musician had clearly racist views of African Americans analogous to Atzmon's extreme views on Jews? Any doubt he wouldn't have a venue to play in? In Manchester or anywhere else?

Heard him once. Last December on a Sunday night with Ray Anderson's Pocket Brass Band in front of a small crowd. He was incredible playing like he was 40 years younger. Afterwords, he was joking that that was all he had for the night. Being it was 2 sets playing *that* music, pretty incredible he played what he played. I'm very blessed to have experienced that night. Seeing someone on the trumpet in their musical prime at 70. Fwiw, I doubt he needed that gig - I'm sure he did it for Ray and for the music God speed - RIP sir

I'm as close to an objectivist as posts here, I think However, I couldn't tell you the 10 greatest drummers ever or playing today. I can tell you a few playing today who are among the greatest who ever sat behind a kit, but that would simply raise hackles.

Btw - my wife thinks either Nasheet Waits or Hamid Drake are "The Greatest Drummer in the World" She usually changes her mind after she sees one or the other

I'm only irritated that you won't continue to post here, Ethan Fwiw, I'm a later member of this forum - and yes it is the best jazz forum there is today - but I'm often a lone or lonely voice on many matters which is OK with me. I have no "credentials" like some of the above. Plus I was once a member of what was once the best jazz discussion board that was much less involved in the codification of this music as this forum is - whether it be knowingly or unknowingly. I still like the movie despite all the philosophies being pretty much in opposition to my own. On multiple levels. Still liked the movie. Then again, I'm not an "intellectual" like many of the above:)

In fact, Moore's "solo" section during Gerry Hemingway's The Marmalade King is superb. His duet on alto saxophone during the closing section is also as strong as anything I've heard from the great reed player on record. And YES - I know it is OOP and very expensive to get. Fwiw, it is now available from one seller @$29.99 which is a good price for this disc - and worth every penny

Wow

Add Joachim Badenhorst. I seen some cool circular breathing on that horn when he played with Malaby's Novela

Marty Ehrlich plays more of the straight horn but he is something else on the bass clarinet Doesn't Rudi Mahall play only bass clarinet?

I very much liked the movie which my wife and I saw on Saturday. I thought J.K. Simmons was great in the part he was given. As far as the the rest, I figured whoever wrote it had a late and very limited introduction to the music. I am also perpetually fascinated how the narrative here and everywhere else regarding the musical and cultural is so different from mine. I think there is much truth in Simmons' character - I think a truth not even known by whoever invented him. Looking for the next Bird 60 years after he's gone. So busy ensconced in a tomb, they all missed the man his own school wouldn't even give a concert to.....maybe a guy like that was playing outside the school for change. 20 years ago it might have been Charles - maybe the other Charles (Brackeen) is still able to play out in LA if he's still alive at 75 ?!?! I guess these teachers missed them all as they were looking for the Bird who would only play Bird redux. Race? I didn't even think of it until I opened this thread today. Ethan is off the deep end with that incoherent rant. Talk about pigeonholing and stereotyping. Lordy Fucking Lordy No more devotional drummer in this world than the *great* Randy Peterson devotional to the family and the ultimate anti-groove Let The Horse Go

Lock someone in a chair in front of Tony Malaby, Michael Formanek & Nasheet Waits who has never heard jazz and get back to me. If you were at the shows last fall @ Cornelia Street, you might understand They may want to run and hide after a bit but within the hour, I say many would like it or even be blown away. My wife loves it live. My wife loved Evan Parker live. In duet with Sylvie Courvoisier. No drums, no tunes - pure free improvisation. Loved it. She is a pop music fan. Don't underestimate the ears of potential listeners and don't underestimate the power of world class improvising musicians. The idea that no one would get into "jazz" through the avant-garde is presumptuous at best.

Seconded RIP, sir!!!

Have to include a track from Interstellar Space One would be surprised what a new listener is capable of hearing