Steve Reynolds

Been tracking the upcoming shows and I'm circling the possible ones and a while back I noticed that Ches Smith's week of shows @ The Stone are very interesting with These Arches scheduled for 10/1 and a fine quartet the following night. Then I see on Saturday night 10/4, the first set is a trio of Brandon Seabrook on guitar, Toby Driver on bass and Ches on drums. Called TANK. Sounds smoking. THEN - the second 10:00 set: Ches Smith Tyshawn Sorey Randy Peterson Get Ready to Receive Yourself

I'm kinda dyin' over here knowing I can't make it on Thursday @ Vision Fest.

I'm now upset I didn't include this on my most recent order. Instead, I'm gonna make sure I revisit the original Lacy music that this recording is based on. I will make sure get this and I will make I check out the band live.

Not to mention playing videogames, which is a billion dollar industry which last i heard had officially eclipsed the movie industry earnings wise. From housewives playing casual games on smart phones to hardcore PC gamers, people are in to gaming. And unlike music they're willing to spend money on it. People will spend thousands on consoles and games; that's a large slice of the disposable income pie right there. Jazz is not that popular but i think the age of traditional popularity, household names etc, in pretty much any genre, is largely over. It was a blip. Having said that, i think if promoted in the right way jazz could at least reach more of the young/alternative audience. At the end of the day jazz is a different language to what most people grew up with. What motivation does anyone have to learn a second language if they don't need it? Also, it's a fact of life that factors other than the music itself come in to play = for most people jazz is a faceless, contextless music. When we pick up an album and look at the personnel we sense the history of the players and everything that comes with it: "whoa i wonder what Dude X will sound like with Dude Y on bass prior to that period of his playing." For most people however the personnel are a list of random names that carry no weight whatsoever. I've often thought that if a listener listened to an album not as a 'jazz' album but as an experimental album from one of their favourite alt bands it would be a mind opener. I'm 33 and starting getting in to jazz at around 25. FWIW here's what i thought pre-indoctrination: - In general i disliked brass. - The saxophone is the least cool instrument on the planet. In the eighties when i was growing up it seemed like every horrible pop song and cheesy sitcom theme featured a corny saxophone solo. - As a hip hop fan, i'd often check out jazz due to enjoying songs with jazzy samples. It always felt like it was missing something without the beat. Vacant, lacking. - Beats. I can't stress enough how used we are to hearing a strong kick snare four four beat and how wrong it feels to not have it there (in hindsight this is weird as i dug film music and other stuff that didn't have a beat). - That 'tss t t tss t t tss' and walking bass line thing made me want to slit my wrists. - Sometimes i'd enjoy the heads but i found solos to be completely tedious. Listening to Kind of Blue it was like a switch when the solos would start, like the carpet was being pulled out from under my ears. - Beats. No beats. No good. - Funny thing is i don't even remember consciously thinking that jazz was old or dead or whatever. People don't give it that much thought. I started listening to jazz when I was ~ 31 or so. My first thought was: 1) where the fuck are the drums? I was used to rock music. It took a few weeks to hear the music and it was Mingus at Antibes that did it. I then bought a zillion classic recordings and started listening to more current music including 70's and 80's Waldron, Murray, Hemphill, Lake and Rivers, etc. I started hearing something extraordinary about hearing music that to me was without limitations and very energetic and exciting. Seeing Trio 3 helped. Seeing Evan Parker roar on tenor with Dresser and Previte had me hooked on the "avant-garde"

Some people will. But that sort of music has a tiny audience. It might seem otherwise at a dedicated New York or London venue with millions living within commuting distance. I can't imagine many turning out for it in the market town I live in. We don't even get mainstream jazz here! Remember that in its determination to confront conformity and stereotype much of that music deliberately throws out or disguises the things most people recognise as music - recognisable melody (in the sense of tunes), a danceable beat, standard harmony. There is no doubt that if you are receptive to having your prejudices about music confronted then it can be enjoyed by anyone. But, as you said earlier, most people's interest in music doesn't go that far (and there's no reason it should). Agree with all of this. My wife heard the stuff I listen to at home for years and besides a few things, I was forced into listening via headphones. Cecil Taylor scared her and forget about Brotzmann. But when saw the musicians live it all changed. She told Nasheet Waits that he should be on Jay Leno

Plus the idea that extended improvisations or continuous playing through different compositions cannot capture the attention of an audience is not accurate based on my experience. When the music is good, people listen and get into it.

I don't think that jazz doesn't appeal to "those people" because "there is a huge entertainment deficit in today's jazz." Rather, as I think you suggest, it's because the kinds of musical entertainment they prefer already amply satisfy their desires to" just ... have fun." If I'm already having lots of fun, why would I go in search of some other ways to do that? Pondering these problems, there's always a temptation to say that jazz such as it is needs to be significantly other than it is, and then we might be OK. Not that the various ways that jazz is nowadays ought to be regarded with complacency, but my experience over the years has been that if we try to gee up the music's supposed "entertainment deficit," we then won't be OK, or that much better off, in terms of popularity, we'll just have some more music that no one will care that much about or remember after a short while. Hey, what about Windham Hill? That was supposed to be our salvation at one point. ​BTW, that is not to dismiss the important practical points that Allen Lowe made in post #34. I agree that jazz should not be watered down to try to appeal to a mass audience. However, even in my lifetime I can remember Lionel Hampton, Clark Terry, Dizzy Gillespie, Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughan, Art Ensemble of Chicago, and Sun Ra emphasizing an entertainment aspect in their shows, or at least a lively, friendly interaction with the audience. Charles Mingus, Dexter Gordon and Carla Bley had large personalities and some people went to see them partly to hear their between song comments and just to see them. I am not aware of anything like that today. I can't name any jazz artist who presents an entertaining, engaging or compelling onstage personality, or who makes their shows entertaining. There are no jazz artists that I can think of who would generate a comment like "oh, he or she is really cool" from a member of the general public. ICP, William Parker's Quartet, and I would even venture to say Tony Malaby, despite what some feel is his desultory appearance. The bands I see are mostly highly entertaining *and* musically invigorating. Almost all the bandleaders are open and warm to the audience and my experience is the audience has plenty of fun. My belief is that most people just don't love music in the same way that some of us do - and that once they end up with some sort of stable life, they like what they might hear on the radio or see on TV. And the few concerts they might see would be a band from their past (Fleetwood Mac or The Eagles) or something that they heard on hot 97 or whatever the current Top 40 station is where they live. Same as it ever was, really - but as someone pointed out, music on a deep listening level is simply not as important to as many as it once was as there are a zillion new ways to be "entertained". Who is going to investigate some wordless sort of music when they aren't even really excited about the music they might currently listen to in between tweeting, surfing on line or watching DVRs of the latest shows or sporting events?!?!

Much truth to that Allen. I was only there for a few hours on Saturday. The set with Richard Davis, Aska Taneko, Angelica Sanchez and Andrew Cyrille was very fine and it was the only time a group was able to play long enough to find the core of the music and yet the set was only 40 minutes or so. Plus it appeared that they had signaled to the that the set should be shortened and then they played another 10 to 15 minute beautifully improvised piece of music. Tar Baby ( I hate the name, fwiw) with Oliver Lake played 3 or 4 tunes for a total of 20-25 minutes. The opening band played 2 compositions for a total of under 15 minutes. We left after Reid / Gibbs and Aklaaf who played 2 rocking tunes(one a Ronald Shannon Jackson thing) and the other a pure rock out song that was good - my wife loved it - and they were done in under 20 minutes. Glad I went but to compare it to, let's say, the sets I heard from the Lucien Ban/Mat Maneri Quintet with Tony Malaby, Bob Stewart and Gerald Cleaver @ Cornelia Street, there is NO comparison as far as the intensity, sound, vibe and ultimately the performance of the musicians. For example I am much more excited to go to I Beam (a square cement walled box of a room in Brooklyn) on June 22nd to hear two different trios with Max Johnson on bass that feature Paul Flaherty and Mat Maneri. I will be right there in front of the band hearing, feeling and taking in every drop of sweat, sound and force of those musicians. Seeing Nasheet Waits in a small club compared to that 980 one third filled auditorium is like Lobster compared to Chuck Steak. He was very fine and his solo was all Nasheet but it's nothing like when you are in danger of feeling like "this is fucking incredible" which can and has happened when I've seen drummers like Nasheet Waits live in the music rooms I normally see music in. Plus even after the fine improvised 40ish minutes, there was nothing in the level of excitement that I got, for example, from Cooper-Moore when he was playing with William Parker's In a Order to Survive in June 2012 @ Vision Fest. No band I heard even approached the level of intensity of groove of that awesome ensemble with Drake driving the engine.

Rita: One of these days I get to your neck of the forest.... I made some comments on the other thread. I enjoyed the few hours my wife and I were there. Highlights were the quartet with Mr. Davis and the duo with Cyrille and the fine cellist with a dancer that added to the presentation for me.

The audience at the concert last week in Montclair, NJ was pretty much a microcosm of the community. Mixed races, ages, sexes, etc.

Another myth is that intense free jazz/improv cannot be deeply engaging and profound Then again, I never heard it before that traditional more mainstream jazz is more engaging and profound than most of the music I listen to. Then again I listen to Led Zeppelin, Evan Parker, Hank Mobley, Pavement, Can, Mat Maneri, Darius Jones, AEOC, Oliver Lake, Husker Du and much in between. Maybe some more profound than others - but firm mt experience from my personal perspective, intense concentrated free improvisation of all sorts is the most challenging and profound.

I will do a survey at the 2 or 3 Evan Parker shows I will attend in September @ The Stone. My recollection is that it is wide range of ages from last September and 2009. The audience @ Cornelia Street has a nice percentage of young people

See Brotzmann tour thread - very young listeners are a large part of the more out/aggressive aspects of the free jazz For a more mainstream concert yet skewed towards the margins(The Dolphy tribute even last weekend in Montclair, NJ), the audience was older but many in their 20's through my age(54) The younger listeners, IMO, are looking for something else besides what has gone on before and even through free jazz/escastic jazz has been around for a while, it continues to morph and many have never heard anything like it. When a young friend of mine heard Brotzmann a few years back, he didn't hear out, he heard exciting jazz/improvised music that was exciting and vibrant to him. He is not alone.

Gerry Hemingway or Michael Moore

John Law

Lotsa KV haters out there. Always been that way and always will. So I see in your viewpoint the Tentet when they played charts - some of which were Vandermark penned - was a minor venture. I understand personal taste and all that and I haven't been listening to this music for 40 or even 50 years but the two shows in the late 90's @ Tonic was not the least of anything. We all know the power of that band has never been transferred on record except to a minor extent on Stone/Water (recorded in Victoriaville - with Kondo added), but that band live at that time was as good as any band I've ever seen. Period. Were you there, Moms? Or did the presence of Vandermark and the use of his grant to put that band on the road sway you from attending any of those shows from the earlier tours of the band before they gave up on the written material? Fwiw, giving up on the charts in my mind was a big disappointment - this was one of the inviting aspects of that original Chicago Octet/Tentet/Tentet plus 1 or 2. Brotzmann with Fred Hopkins and Rashied Ali on Songlines another powerhouse record. Brotzmann is Sui Generis and sounds great with a variety of great drummers.

I've known about it but I've never heard it. Thanks for the compliment. I used to be too much of an asshole critical type. Some may still think I'm an asshole, but I am who I am. No apologies for being someone who when I hear and see greatness that I voice my opinion. A few people said I would never be able to continue to be enthusiastic about the music I love for this long. I'm glad I continue to support my favorite musicians. Always a Pleasure

No Drake solo recordings as far as I know. Duets with Michael Zerang exist as do duets with William Parker Best recordings, IMO, to hear him like it was live might be: DKV trio Live in Wels and Chicago - 2 great shows from 1998, Blue Winter (trio with WP & Fred Anderson) which has Drake in prime recorded sound with Anderson and Parker at their relaxed best. Of course Trigonomtry is DKV live from the 2001 tour recorded right before and after I saw them - 2 wonderous shows with the Don Cherry inspired music plus an amazing run up to Take The Coltrane where Drakes groove explodes the world. The Quartet of Fred Anderson, Kidd Jordan, WP and Hamid can be heard to great effect on 2 Days in April. That band live at that time (~ 1999) had people literally dancing in the aisles when they played @ Vision Fest I think in 2000. I've never seen anything like it before or since. Plus to hear the band you heard last night plus the amazing Toshinoro Kondo on trumpet/effects/genius - which is the orginal Die Like a Dog quartet - there are 4 titles on FMP. But alas Drake is not captured as well as he is on the above or below recordings. Best bargain is the recent William Parker Wood Flute Songs 8 CD box with the Parker quartet (WP, HD with Rob Brown & Lewis Barnes) plus added musicians on 4 of the 8 discs. Priced economically. I got mine for $60 at the quartet shows @ The Stone last fall and I play most of the discs quite often. Uli may know of a solo recording I guess I'm getting fired up for June 15th and I just ordered my tickets for my wife and I. Fwiw, my wife fell in love with a few drummers the last few years - bit no one for her compares to Hamid Drake. Well Nasheet is almost there, but he is wonderful and extremely exciting to watch and hear, but Drake is Drake. As an old friend from the old board once said, he could listen to Drake play with even the guy next door. Blues for Tomorrow, baby

I haven't bought a Braxton CD in ages - specifically a newer recording. I wavered on buying the duet 4 CD set with Hemingway (Old Dogs) I think I will order this one

A bit upset that I will NOT see the trio @ Vision Fest on Thursday 6/12 BUT I will see the *Great* Hamid Drake in TWO bands the last night of Vision Fest on Sunday 6/15. Nothing can ever rival the sound/effect/vibe of Hamid Drake @ The Stone from the first or second row BUT up front @ Roulette the last couple of years has been very special indeed. Well the only experiences that I've had with seeing Hamid Drake that were just as special were with the original, phenomenon that was the chart reading Brotzmann Chicago Tentet twice at the Stone plus the DKV trio on 3/27/01 @ Tonic as well which remains one of the most cathartic experiences I've ever experienced seeing and hearing a drummer. The penultimate grooves of Drake and the trio playing improvised music based on snippets/themes of Don Cherry/Joe McPhee and bits of great lines from others. So glad u all are loving seeing the legendary trio

Deep River is a real good one, fwiw

I was in the center of the front row last night with my wife, who enjoyed it much more than she anticipated. As an Andrew Hill fan and a hopelessly amateur bassist, I was ecstatic that a trip to New York coincided with the festival and allowed me to finally see Richard Davis perform (and speak). It was also my first time seeing Andrew Cyrille (and in a variety of contexts!), Ted Daniel, Oliver Lake, Grachan Moncur III and Pheeroan akLaff, among others. Some thoughts on a few of the sets and some of the musicians involved: Tarbaby - I'd only seen Nasheet Waits before and haven't heard much of Lake. I was struck by Lake's huge sound on alto and his variety of tonal textures. Waits had such a light, dancing feeling to his playing that it sounded like Roy Haynes playing out. He's definitely a chip off the old block, and I'm sure his father would be delighted to hear him (I know I was). Richard Davis/Aska Kaneko/Angelica Sanchez/Andrew Cyrille: This was one of the more abstract sets of the night and one of two that were freely improvised. I was surprised to see Davis play almost exclusively arco during this set, and his bass blended well with Kaneko's violin. A favorite moment for me was when Angelica Sanchez was plucking the piano's strings while Davis and Kaneko bowed (Kaneko was plucking at some point as well during the set) and Cyrille laid down a nice groove. Kaneko also has a pleasant singing voice; I was disappointed that she didn't have CDs for sale. Davis, not content to rest on his laurels, was quite unpredictable and unorthodox; it was a special thing to see him pushing himself and the rest of the group with his provocative bowing and his expansive approach as a bassist. Grachan Moncur III - I believe it was a septet. The only downside to the set was that, given the time constraints and the size of the ensemble, they were limited to one tune. Like the earlier surprise of Richard Davis focusing on arco, which he also did throughout the vast majority of the Moncur set, I was surprised to see that Moncur didn't play any trombone. He instead tabbed Alfred Patterson for trombone duties. I was impressed with Patterson, who had a double bell on his trombone that he did a bit of a call and response with. Ted Daniel played a gorgeous solo divided between muted and open trumpet. Having heard him on a Billy Bang album, I bought two of his albums before the music even started, and I'm glad that I did. He deserves a much higher profile. Vernon Reid/Pheeroan akLaff/Melvin Gibbs - This was pure, unadulterated fun, with the band rocking out on tunes by Ronald Shannon Jackson and Sonny Sharrock. I'm more familiar with Living Colour's drummer, Will Calhoun, but Reid was pretty interesting. akLaff was grinning ear to ear during this set and after the concert. Tomeka Reid/Beatrice Capote/Andrew Cyrille - Reid had an astounding feature on 'God Bless the Child' that drew from Dolphy's bass-clarinet interpretations of the song. Although I was hoping that she was somehow related to Rufus Reid, I think that she might just be another remarkably gifted string musician who happens to share the same last name. Capote, a non-tap dancer, added a visual element that proved to be not the least distracting and positively impacted the overall set; Cyrille was totally locked onto her throughout. His sensitivity and versatility within the different contexts of the night confirmed my earlier belief that he is one of the truly great drummers. The Sound of Freedom Ensemble - Despite the late start to the night's music and the size of the ensemble, they played a relatively long set that included Dolphy's 'Hat and Beard'. I haven't looked through the whole program, but I'd be interested to know more about the previously unperformed and/or unrecorded Dolphy composition(s) that they played. James Brandon Lewis, who recently released an album on Okeh, is a muscular player whom I'd like to hear at greater length; I think that he was the only tenor saxophonist of the night and was probably the youngest musician on the stand. Pheeroan akLaff deserves a lot of credit for pulling off such a varied, thoughtfully programmed tribute to Dolphy. I hope that it was a successful fundraiser, and I'd like to see it get released at some point. It sounds like they want to make this a yearly event, so I'm looking forward to seeing where they take it. Next time we need to say hello, Justin Yes, Andrew Cyrille is one the great ones plus he was the coolest dude in the room on Saturday and his playing maybe especially with fine cellist and dancer was extraordinary

And if he's not an addict, if he's just one of them Get High For Fun Boys, then the actions that led to his result are those of a really dumb, common motherfucker who happens to be a good trumpet player. Or more to the point - as the means of provisioning criminal behaviors to the customer base desirous of same become increasingly sophisticated in terms of discretion and anonymity (to say nothing of the integration with the societal units contractually charged with enforcing the laws regarding these same behaviors) , it rather...urgently behooves the consumer of such behaviors to follow suit, unless and until said customer decides to an irrevocable point of certainty that their needs are better served through other means. For sure. It certainly it is the smart or cogent or reasonable thing to do for an addict to follow direction of other addicts who are in recovery and have a pretty cool blueprint that is simple enough and wide ranging enough for any addict to follow no matter what their background, choices of drug(s), circumstance(s), fame, lack of fame, race, sexual preference, belief in god or not, political viewpoint(or not) or whatever. I know hopeful 25 year old Rock Star dude with real possibilities who was in jail 6 years ago guys who is clean 5 years and retired janitors who are clean. And many others who are clean. But many many more are not clean. The reality is that very few addicts get clean AND stay clean for any significant period of time. That is the reality. I wish it wasn't the case. The reality is that I took responsibility for the total and absolute wreckage that was my life and took responsibility for my recovery. I owe no more. I am an asset to my community and my family when I was once simply a leech and a burden. Plus I've been able to buy back some if the music I sold in 2003. 20 box sets including 5 Miles boxes and about 10 Mosaics - all sold in a month. Plus about 500 other discs - again all gone in a month - and most at 10c on the dollar. Not planned. Not happy after the drugs ran out. I thought there was no way out. First step is that person or any person who appears to others around them that there is a problem is that the actual person themselves needs to get honest with themselves that they have a problem and self diagnose themselves as a drug addict. It's a very hard thing to do unless that person is desparate and maybe believes they cannot live with or without drugs.

When we are using we sometimes think we are fucking brilliant and invincible. For some to get clean and stay clean, one of the most important ingredients is to realize that we are not equipped to manage our lives while using. To think a true using drug addict plans and manages and might be true on the outside as I also know many who never got arrested or ever lost jobs, etc. - but those are a small minority. The answer for a guy like Roy Hargrove if he is an addict has nothing to do with learning or hoping not to cop on the street at 4:30 in the AM. If he is an addict and continues to use, he isn't gonna get any better at using or any smarter. It only gets worse.Perfectly stated, my friend. I currently work in a substance abuse rehab, and see example after example to reinforce what you have stated. It's incredibly complicated. And it consumes some really good people...Yes it is but it is incredibly simple to get and stay clean Also the hardest thing I've ever done. I have often been less direct about my past and I do post under my own real name so I choose to break anonymity but I don't get specific about how I've been able to keep drugs out of my system for quite a few years now. But the message I have is to try to not judge guys like Roy Hargrove or whoever we might know that us suffering or dying. It's a bitch to treat this disease as it's self diagnosed and it is a disease that tells us that it isn't a disease or we can just drink a couple or smoke a joint of just hang out like all you other cool dudes. But it is liar and a thief. I heard from a very wise old time addict who is clean now 28 years. It takes one thing to stay clean. Everything you got. If any addict thinks they know how to stay clean without the help of those who actually know how to stay clean or they think they can use different drugs or think alcohol isn't a drug for them, they are doomed. Every time. I see and hear it every Monday night when I'm in the rehab at the local county jail or when I go to the 21 day rehab at the local county hospital or the detox at that same county hospital. Very sad but it keeps me in touch of my past. Some of my best friends are in the grips if active addiction and there is nothing I can of to help them. And they had been clean in some cases over 5 or 10 of 15 years. Some of the best people I've ever met. Some smart / a brilliant guitarist I know is back clean 120 days today - and he's been clean 6 years twice and also in prison in between. A brilliant passionate guy. But he struggles with life and when he uses, very bad things happen despite his intellect and good intentions. So the idea that Roy Hargrove, if he is an addict, can manage his life while using? Maybe on the outside he can get his shit together better - for a while - often we get our shit together for a while - but inside using drugs for an addict is a slow or fast trip to the grave.

When we are using we sometimes think we are fucking brilliant and invincible. For some to get clean and stay clean, one of the most important ingredients is to realize that we are not equipped to manage our lives while using. To think a true using drug addict plans and manages and might be true on the outside as I also know many who never got arrested or ever lost jobs, etc. - but those are a small minority. The answer for a guy like Roy Hargrove if he is an addict has nothing to do with learning or hoping not to cop on the street at 4:30 in the AM. If he is an addict and continues to use, he isn't gonna get any better at using or any smarter. It only gets worse. Yes brilliant intellectually for sure just as in the population as a whole. Ability to manage their lives? Very little - see how most addicts end up. The vast majority die from the damages from active addiction.