Sun Ra & Art Ensemble of Chicago

[jimi089]

That's really interesting Chuck. I never put the Dolphy -> Jarman connection together but now that you mention it I can definitely hear it.

[JSngry]

Would it be fair to claim, though, that Ra was a cultural influence if not a direct musical one? That the "social climate" in Chicago that fostered the AACM would not have been as it was w/o Ra's various activities throughout the 1950s?

Chuck, Larry, anybody, any thoughts on this aspect of a potential Ra "influence" or lack thereof?

[Chuck Nessa]

I do not believe either Sun Ra or the AACM would have been possible outside the "social climate" in Chicago. Not sure I'd be comfortable with anything beyond that.

[JSngry]

Would you be comfortable saying that Ra left Chicago a different city (within his parameters. of course) than he found it?

Serious question, you'd know a lot better than I would.

[Larry Kart]

Would it be fair to claim, though, that Ra was a cultural influence if not a direct musical one? That the "social climate" in Chicago that fostered the AACM would not have been as it was w/o Ra's various activities throughout the 1950s?

Chuck, Larry, anybody, any thoughts on this aspect of a potential Ra "influence" or lack thereof?

I'm no expert on the "social climate" in Chicago in the 1950s jazzwise other than how I experienced it/observed it at the time, and I didn't turn 18 until 1960 and lived in a northern suburb until I graduated from high school and went to college in Hyde Park (on the South Side), so my opportunities were somewhat limited by age and location. Part of that experience did include Sun Ra's own Transition recording when it came out in 1957. Can't say that it struck me as a big deal, the way later things like "The Magic City" would -- it sounded maybe like a melting-watches version of Dameron, with it being hard to tell whether some of what one heard was the result of adventurousness or half-assedness, both in conception and instrumental execution. I'm not saying I was right in thinking that, but it's what I recall thinking at the time. What that says, if it says anything at all, about Ra's influence at the time, cultural or musical, I don't know. Certainly some highly accomplished players were working with him -- e.g. Gilmore, Spaulding, Priester, trumpeter Art Hoyle. I would venture to say, though, that there was so much going on jazzwise in Chicago from the the mid-'50s on -- in a wide range of styles, some of them fairly "advanced" -- that it might not be wise, until proven otherwise, to read things backwards from Ra's later accomplishments and assume that he made a big impact early on in Chicago, relative to all the other things that were going on. Also, and this may be the main rub, my guess is that for someone like Roscoe, who was 18 in 1958, early key experiences were a matter of the immediate environment (older schoolmate Donald Myrick, later of Earth, Wind, and Fire), encounters with recordings he liked, schooling, etc. -- all this being reacted to by his own questing, adamant spirit. In particular, I would guess that for Roscoe et al., this was (as it was for many of us) a time when one felt that figures such as Rollins and Coltrane, then Dolphy and Ornette, were writing in letters of flame on the palace walls. One possible effect of this was to reinforce a provincialism that had not, in fact, previously been the case in Chicago versus the larger jazz world by and large -- one of the things that the AACM did, both in terms of collective attitude and individual talent, was to not surrender to/believe in/give in to/what have you that template and be by and large right in doing so; that is, the music made matched the attitude, though perhaps George Lewis's book will go into the chicken-egg aspects of this. IIRC, based on brief glancing encounters with Roscoe in particular in the mid-1960s, he gave off every indication that he felt that he stood at the virtual center of the musical universe. As Miles I think said of Sonny Payne: "Looking good is half the battle." But Roscoe I believe gave that impression because he was, in effect, splitting atoms in his lab; he was very busy/determined because he needed to be.

[JSngry]

I guess I was thinking more about the effect(s?) that Ra's pamphlets, lecturing, whatever/etc might have had on the city's jazz culture in terms of opening up minds to the possibilities of "other possibilities", so that when the AACM came along and actually went there, it wasn't like everybody was all WTF? about it. I remember Chuck talking about how Von was all good with the AACM, & I know I've read - maybe in DB - that Von worked w/Ra early on and how one night he "heard" Ra's music as the difference that it was.

So maybe, if/since Ra's influence on the actual music wasn't there (or minimally there) is it possible that his influence was one of "climate", that without him and his presence on the local scene (& I get the impression that Ra was not at all above "holding court" regularly, and that plenty of local guys who weren't part of his thing would at least hang out and listen to what he was saying. Hell, Trane hung with him at least once then, right? So it doesn't seem like he was all off in a world by himself all the time...), doors (of perception?) were found to be cracked open that might have otherwise been found locked shut?

I'm not formulating an academic theory, mind you just looking at what "we" know and wondering how the pieces fit together inb the end.

[Chuck Nessa]

The city is a fascinating combination of provincialism and cosmopolitan sophistication serving up a delightful stew of prophets, pamphleteers, public declaimers, independent thinkers and crackpots.

Edited February 15, 2008 by Chuck Nessa

[JSngry]

Would it then be fair to say that Ra did what he did (and that it did make its mark in at least some fashion), but that he was one of several/many, and that to focus on him at the expense of those others would create an imbalanced view of the "wholeness" of it all?

Sorry to be so....anal about all this, but I really am intersted in getting as clear a picture as possible.

[Larry Kart]

I guess I was thinking more about the effect(s?) that Ra's pamphlets, lecturing, whatever/etc might have had on the city's jazz culture in terms of opening up minds to the possibilities of "other possibilities", so that when the AACM came along and actually went there, it wasn't like everybody was all WTF? about it. I remember Chuck talking about how Von was all good with the AACM, & I know I've read - maybe in DB - that Von worked w/Ra early on and how one night he "heard" Ra's music as the difference that it was.

So maybe, if/since Ra's influence on the actual music wasn't there (or minimally there) is it possible that his influence was one of "climate", that without him and his presence on the local scene (& I get the impression that Ra was not at all above "holding court" regularly, and that plenty of local guys who weren't part of his thing would at least hang out and listen to what he was saying. Hell, Trane hung with him at least once then, right? So it doesn't seem like he was all off in a world by himself all the time...), doors (of perception?) were found to be cracked open that might have otherwise been found locked shut?

I'm not formulating an academic theory, mind you just looking at what "we" know and wondering how the pieces fit together inb the end.

Just guessing, and I haven't read Szwed's book. but my guess is that the number of people who paid attention to Ra's music in Chicago back then, small as that number might have been, was significantly larger than the number of people who paid attention to his pamphlets, lecturing/whatever etc. -- if only because, as Chuck pointed out, the city was such a " stew of prophets, pamphleteers, public declaimers, independent thinkers and crackpots." Again, I could be dead wrong here, but my guess is that if Ra's pamphlets etc. of the time were placed alongside other such material from that time from figures who, unlike Ra, made no significant further mark on the world (with names and certain dead-giveaway phrases covered over), you'd be hard-pressed to sort all this out on the basis of what's actually there, absent the associations that later Ra brings. Again, my guess is that two things are going on here -- backwards validation/attribution of weight to early Ra across the board because he later proved to be a figure of weight, plus maybe the whole "outsider art" thing, plus the investment that those who promulgate the whole "outsider art" thing have in the chunks of outsider art that they're promulgating.

[Larry Kart]

I'm thinking we need a time machine.

[Hot Ptah]

I want to weigh in here for whatever small contribution it might be worth, to describe my conversations with Richard Davis over the years about Sun Ra's early days in Chicago. (The things that Richard Davis has said to me are the only contributions I can make to a jazz board like this one, so I will post them for what they are worth).

Richard played duets with Sun Ra at strip clubs in Calumet City in the late 1940s, and spent a lot of time with Sun Ra before Richard moved to New York in the mid-1950s. For example, there is a photo of Sun Ra sitting in Richard's mother's living room in 1950, in the CD booklet that goes with Richard's "Reminesces" album.

Richard has spoken at length to me, and to other students and jazz lovers in Madison, Wisconsin (where Richard has lived since 1977), about Sun Ra's strength of character and amazing musical abilities. Sun Ra could play incredible two handed stride piano while reading a thick book of philosophy, while the strippers did their thing a few feet away--Sun Ra would quickly flip to the next page of the book without missing a note. Sun Ra taught them all what to say, and how to say it, at the induction center to get out of the military draft for the Korean War. Sun Ra knew how to play in every musical style you can think of.

I have never heard Richard say that Sun Ra influenced his playing or musical conception, or his philosophies of life, or that of other musicians particularly. It was more that Sun Ra was a really good musician, a fun guy to play with, an interesting and strong person, and a good guy to know. I would not say that Richard saw Sun Ra as a peer, but closer to that than a figure to be idolized.

Richard did often talk about his high school music teacher, Captain Walter Dyett, who also taught Johnny Griffin and many other famous musicians. Captain Dyett was a huge influence on a generation of Chicago musicians who became well known jazz artists.

I think that the idea that Sun Ra was a direct musical or philosophical influence on the other Chicago musicians as a whole, may be overstating things.

Richard Davis has a web page and he is known for replying to all sincere email questions. Anyone could ask him. Richard taught with Roscoe Mitchell for several years at the University of Wisconsin, where Richard still teaches. I know that he knows Don Moye and knew Lester Bowie. Richard played in the Sun Ra All-Stars in the early 1980s with Lester Bowie, for example.

Edited February 15, 2008 by Hot Ptah

[JSngry]

Well yeah!

I'm struck, though, by how Trane hooked up w/Ra in the 50s, got one/some of his mathematical/numerological cum musical writings, and apparently held on to it for years, and that supposedly(?) it was a local Chicago cat that suggested the hookup. I'm also struck by anecdotes of how so-and-so (usually some local guy like Richard Evans(?)) used to hear Ra doing his thing(s) and thought he was kinda out there but as things went along, hey, it began to make sense (or at least more sense). Having come up in a city with no such back culture whatsoever - especially in jazz - I can tell you that having one where people's ears/minds have already been "prepped" does make a difference. It's not a question of "getting it" or not as it is just having people not getting totally convulsive and Shut It Down NOW reactionary when something comes along. And I gotta ask - who else in the jazz culture of Ra's Chicago was creating similar stimuli? There well may have been others, and we need to know about them. But even if Ra was one of some, he still was one.

I don't mean this as an attempt to "backwards validate" or anything, but I know how various cities' scenes have "personalities" of their own as well as Personalities, and the two only sometimes intersect. I'm also not looking to make a Ra/AACM connection, because other than "spirit", I've never really heard one either. But I do know that all cities scenes are formed by forces beyond "what you see and hear", and I can't disabuse myself (yet) of the notion that the Chicago scene that the AACM stepped into would have been of a different spirit w/o Ra than it was with. A Macro- vs a micro-influence if you will, somebody who, as I said earlier, either cracked the doors open just a little or else kept them from closing, if they had in fact already been cracked open by somebody else.

I know that that's not the original question, but maybe it's one that could be asked and answered to better effect than a simple "did the AEC cop from Ra?". That one's pretty much a connect the dots, but the other goes more to how cities' cultures develop how they do, and on that one, you don't need to be a direct/personal/whatever influence to be an influence, if you know what I mean.

To look it it another way - why did Ornette get such rabid rejection in LA for so long while Ra, while not "warmly welcomed" was able to get something going? Was it him, was it the city, or some symbiotic combination of both?

Speculation abounds (and is dirt cheap), and that time machine seems more and more appealing!

[JSngry]

That Richard Davis stuff goes to what I'm trying to say - that Ra made an lasting impression on those who knew him. Not that he was an "influence", but that he did make an impression. People who make lasting impressions are in some ways every bit as important as those who directly influence, I think, because they give breadth/depth/clarification/etc to the what of the where.

[Larry Kart]

To look it it another way - why did Ornette get such rabid rejection in LA for so long while Ra, while not "warmly welcomed" was able to get something going? Was it him, was it the city, or some symbiotic combination of both?

Speculation abounds (and is dirt cheap), and that time machine seems more and more appealing!

We know for sure that Sun Ra worked as a pianist with Fletcher Henderson in 1946-7 and then as an arranger at the Club De Lisa -- the Club De Lisa being the major South Side nightclub, with floor shows, etc. (The DeLisa was where Basie "discovered" Joe Williams.) These facts alone guarantee that whatever unusual musical ideas were already percolating in Sun Ra's mind, he was able and at the time willing to function with ease in musical situations that were at once fairly sophisticated and conventional and in which the dictates of show business had to prevail. It would be difficult to imagine Ornette doing the same in LA -- or in Chicago or on the planet Pluto; he had neither the temperament nor the "skills" to fit in (and by "skills" I mean only the ability to function in conventional contexts without calling undue attention to his individuality), though no doubt LA was also more inhospitable to unusual African-Americans than Chicago was.

[johnlitweiler]

As Szwed's book points out, Sun Ra and his Arkestra got something going here in Chicago because they had a tireless manager who kept getting them gigs: Alton Abraham. I wasn't settled here until the mid-1960s, but from what musicians and older music lovers have said, Gene Ammons, Johnny Griffin, Ahmad Jamal, and a number of our other well-known musicians had a much larger influence on the bop-era and free-jazz-era cultural atmosphere in Chicago than Sun Ra and his Arkestra had. As to direct influence on the AACM, the early-1960s musical and philosophical circle around Abrams and Rafael Donald Garrett was vastly more important. (41 years ago Abrams said in his occasional encounters with Sun Ra, they never talked about music.)

All this discourse about Ra's influence, 40-50 years ago, on Chicago is speculative. It's just as valid to speculate that Richard Wang, the young music professor who held Friday jam sessions at a junior college for his early-1960s students, including Threadgill, Mitchell, Jarman, and their friends, was as large an influence on later generations.

I generally agree with Chuck's comments here. The trend of the Art Ensemble, after Jarman became a permanent member, was toward more diffuse music. Partly this is because no band could have sustained the incredible intensity of close interplay of Mitchell's Ensemble in the months when Philip Wilson and/or Leonard Smith were the drummers. (For the same reason, Oliver's Creole band could not have continued at the high 1923 level.) Partly this was because Jarman's music usually was more diffuse anyway. There are obvious exceptions to this generalization -- the second half of People In Sorrow, for instance -- but the ongoing ensemble interaction of Mitchell's late-1966-to-mid-1967 Ensemble was rare and precious (in the best sense of the word).

[Chalupa]

To look it it another way - why did Ornette get such rabid rejection in LA for so long while Ra, while not "warmly welcomed" was able to get something going? Was it him, was it the city, or some symbiotic combination of both?

Speculation abounds (and is dirt cheap), and that time machine seems more and more appealing!

We know for sure that Sun Ra worked as a pianist with Fletcher Henderson in 1946-7 and then as an arranger at the Club De Lisa -- the Club De Lisa being the major South Side nightclub, with floor shows, etc. (The DeLisa was where Basie "discovered" Joe Williams.) These facts alone guarantee that whatever unusual musical ideas were already percolating in Sun Ra's mind, he was able and at the time willing to function with ease in musical situations that were at once fairly sophisticated and conventional and in which the dictates of show business had to prevail. It would be difficult to imagine Ornette doing the same in LA -- or in Chicago or on the planet Pluto; he had neither the temperament nor the "skills" to fit in (and by "skills" I mean only the ability to function in conventional contexts without calling undue attention to his individuality), though no doubt LA was also more inhospitable to unusual African-Americans than Chicago was.

I wonder how much the non-musical aspects of the Arkestra's performances may have figured into their "acceptance". There was definitely a theatrical side to their performances that was largely absent from Ornette's shows. I think the costumes, dancers, etc. made it easier to "welcome" the Arkestra's music even if you didn't "get it".

Also, for all of the weirdness contained in Ra's music the Arkestra was basically a dance band. A freaky ass dance band but band that never forgot how to swing.

[jostber]

This article by the Red Saunders foundation (with obert Campbell) has a lot of information on Sun Ra's Chicago years, and his influence on the musical scene:

http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~campber/sunra.html

[Larry Kart]

This article by the Red Saunders foundation (with obert Campbell) has a lot of information on Sun Ra's Chicago years, and his influence on the musical scene:

http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~campber/sunra.html

Noticed one error on this fascinating site:

"Except for the Cool and Dixieland pieces, everything heard in the film ["The Cry of Jazz"] seems to have come out of the Arkestral book. The composer credits in the film list Le Sun Ra and Julian Priester as composers (the latter being responsible for "Urnack"). Paul Severson is a fictional jazz band leader, for whom Alex, the character who serves as Ed Bland's spokesman, works as an arranger. We have no idea who Norman Leist was. Eddie Higgins, on the other hand, was a White jazz pianist who was rising to prominence on the Chicago scene."

Paul Severson was not "a fictional jazz band leader" but a very real Chicago trombonist and sometime bandleader who made at least one recording back then, I believe in conjunction with talented Chicago saxophonist Kenny Soderblom (who is still very active at age 82, based in Sarasota. Fl.). Goggle "Paul Severson" and you'll find that there's a fair amount of music for trombone arranged by Severson and trombone method stuff by him as well. IIRC Severson passed away a few years ago.

[Chas]

Paul Severson was not "a fictional jazz band leader" but a very real Chicago trombonist and sometime bandleader who made at least one recording back then, I believe in conjunction with talented Chicago saxophonist Kenny Soderblom (who is still very active at age 82, based in Sarasota. Fl.). Goggle "Paul Severson" and you'll find that there's a fair amount of music for trombone arranged by Severson and trombone method stuff by him as well. IIRC Severson passed away a few years ago.

Severson actually led two dates both with Soderblom and one with Eddie Higgins , both recorded in 1956 , and both featuring numerous short tracks . Rare ? Obscure ? You bet ! :

[Larry Kart]

A three-cushion billiard shot. Note in this piece about a recent Soderblom concert who one of the "guest soloists" is, "international jazz trumpet player [and former Sun Ra sideman] Arthur Hoyle."

An Evening of Jazz" with Kenny Soderblom at The Players Theatre

Renowned Sarasota Musician Kenny Soderblom returns to the state of The Players Theatre with An Evening of Jazz entitled "From Blues to Fado and Back."

Kenny, has lined up a band of stellar musicians to light up the stage. Soderblom is a tenor saxophonist who has played with Sarah Vaughn, Dinah Washington, Rosemary Clooney, Nancy Wilson, Peggy Lee, Lena Horne, and Tony Bennett among others. Instrumentalists for the performance are drummer Chuck Paar, pianists Eric Dorey and Richard Drexler, and Dominic Mancini on bass. Guest solosists include Leah, who will sing in five languages, international jazz trumpet player Arthur Hoyle and musicial sensation from Pensylvania, Mark Williams on guitar.

All seats for this delightful evening of Jazz are reserved at $ 18 for adults and $11 for students. Group discounts for parties of 10 or more are available.

"An Evening of Jazz," is a Players Theater Special Event, funded in part by a grant from the Sarasota County Board of Commissioners through The Sarasota County Arts Council.

[Larry Kart]

A link to Soderblom's website:

http://www.kennyandleah.com/main.php

In her blond guise, Kenny's vocalist-wife reminds me of Marge Helgenberger of "CSI."

[AllenLowe]

larry, John, Chuck - has anyone done a decent oral history on the 1950s-60s era in Chicago? sounds like a good idea; this is fascinating stuff and someone needs to sit down with anyone who's still around -

[Chuck Nessa]

The Jazz Institute of Chicago has an ongoing program of interviews. I think it started in the late '70s. Don't know how extensive the list is but they are supposed to be held by the Chicago Jazz Archive in the University of Chicago Library. John Litweiler would have better information.

[jlhoots]

As Szwed's book points out, Sun Ra and his Arkestra got something going here in Chicago because they had a tireless manager who kept getting them gigs: Alton Abraham. I wasn't settled here until the mid-1960s, but from what musicians and older music lovers have said, Gene Ammons, Johnny Griffin, Ahmad Jamal, and a number of our other well-known musicians had a much larger influence on the bop-era and free-jazz-era cultural atmosphere in Chicago than Sun Ra and his Arkestra had. As to direct influence on the AACM, the early-1960s musical and philosophical circle around Abrams and Rafael Donald Garrett was vastly more important. (41 years ago Abrams said in his occasional encounters with Sun Ra, they never talked about music.)

All this discourse about Ra's influence, 40-50 years ago, on Chicago is speculative. It's just as valid to speculate that Richard Wang, the young music professor who held Friday jam sessions at a junior college for his early-1960s students, including Threadgill, Mitchell, Jarman, and their friends, was as large an influence on later generations.

I generally agree with Chuck's comments here. The trend of the Art Ensemble, after Jarman became a permanent member, was toward more diffuse music. Partly this is because no band could have sustained the incredible intensity of close interplay of Mitchell's Ensemble in the months when Philip Wilson and/or Leonard Smith were the drummers. (For the same reason, Oliver's Creole band could not have continued at the high 1923 level.) Partly this was because Jarman's music usually was more diffuse anyway. There are obvious exceptions to this generalization -- the second half of People In Sorrow, for instance -- but the ongoing ensemble interaction of Mitchell's late-1966-to-mid-1967 Ensemble was rare and precious (in the best sense of the word).

Thanks for this insight. Really helpful (to me).

[JSngry]

More about Richard Wang, please!