Race and Racial Interaction, in America and beyond

[connoisseur series500]

Moose,

I'm taking a quick break from work here and am unable to provide a long response; but a few thoughts come to mind.

We definitely disagree on much here.

I reiterate that Aff. Action is a racist law; and I reiterate that black Americans are equal under the law. And this is ALL that the government is responsible for. That inequality or racism exists in social spheres is a whole other issue. You cannot seek to correct that by passing laws which promote one race over any other. I am inclined also to agree with Noj and Rooster that much of the social racism is more of a class racism; but that's another subject.

Laws designed to "correct inequality" by fostering another kind of inequality will never be supported by me. Sorry!

You say that the culture of America from day one has been designed to prevent African Americans from achieving equality with the whites. I am inclined to agree with you and don't dispute this. I would also add that the culture of black America pretty much works towards the same end. Still, the main point of my argument is that equality exists under law; and that is the main function of the government, in my view. Aff. Action is an unequal law.

You pose the question: do you think that trading places with African-Americans would benefit white Americans at all? I respond to this with great honesty: socially, no way! but professionally, it would be a tremendous boost! If I were black in my sales job, the manager would be all over me and would offer extra benefits and aid. No doubt in my mind. I've seen it in action, my friend.

Perhaps you misunderstand my message here: in social terms I do not argue that black Americans have a tougher go and the playing field is not level; but they have the decided--yes, unequal--edge in legal terms, under programs such as Aff. action.

When you gonna start an Aff. Action program to benefit white athletes, so they can get scholarships and a chance to make into the professional leagues (with some help from an NFL or NBA Aff. Action type of program?)

It's nonsense my friend.

Edited May 15, 2003 by connoisseur series500

[Rooster_Ties]

You pose the question: do you think that trading places with African-Americans would benefit white Americans at all?  I respond to this with great honesty: socially, no way! but professionally, it would be a tremendous boost!  If I were black in my sales job, the manager would be all over me and would offer extra benefits and aid.  No doubt in my mind.  I've seen it in action, my friend.

Perhaps, in certain specific instances (including, apparently, some places you've worked, or at least where you're working now), but I do not believe this is widespead. At least I've not seen this in any of my 10 years in the workforce.

It would depend on what you mean by 'extra benefits' and 'aid', in terms of what the manager at your (current?) sales job would offer you, if you were Black. Could you explain a bit more?? What kinds of "benefits" and "aid"??

You say "professionally, [being black] would be a tremendous boost!". I don't question this statement entirely, but I'd have to know a bit more about where you work to even begin to understand it. Ain't nothin' like I've ever heard of.

PS: Does this mean I can't possibly invision a situation where Blacks get preferential treatment over whites?? No, I'm sure that does happen, in some cases. But widespread preferential treatment of Blacks over whites?? - personally, I doubt it.

[connoisseur series500]

We've had black sales people join us before and they were well-showered with extra leads and training and so on; that's what I mean by extra help. I'm in financial sales and there are currently no blacks in our office. The ones that came in never lasted long, but neither does anyone else for that matter. It's a tough occupation.

Actually, I thought about my statement about exchanging places and now feel that it would depend on what we mean by exchanging places. Do we mean that I suddenly develop dark skin? If so, I would do it, I think. (Obviously, I would have to really think it over before making the final decision.) I would do it because I already have all the skills, and knowledge and life experience that I do have, and I feel that I would advance rather easier. Imagine if I were an applicant for a teaching position at a college or something, I feel I would have a tremendous advantage if I were black. Now if we mean that would I have preferred being born black and likely to have been born in the hood or some such place, then the obvious answer is "no!" Moose probably meant the latter situation in posing his hypothetical case. Many black Americans start off disadvantaged if only because they are less likely to inherit some money or assets like white Americans or Asian Americans are likely to do. I try to encourage my black clients to save for the future and to save for the next generation. Of course, I encourage everyone else to do this as well.

And I've also been thinking about what Noj said about there being more of a class bias than a racial one. God, that seems true to me. My black neighbors are treated like equals in every way; but then we are all middleclass. If we were in a neighborhood with punks (both black and white) then I would definitely not want my son to associate with them in any way. One of my neighbors has a son, but he's too young to play with mine.

Hey guys, what can I say? There is little at least-overt racism on my street. Can't speak for your towns and areas. Of course, I don't think anyone would want to hang out in the Hood. In fact, Willy, one of my neighbors, says he was brought up there. He's a terrific person and a trusted neighbor. My other neighbor is a cop, but although we talk about lots of stuff, we haven't talked about his upbringing.

Edited May 15, 2003 by connoisseur series500

[Noj]

...And I've also been thinking about what Noj said about there being more of a class bias than a racial one....

What I was saying is the problem can be addressed entirely in terms of finance without involving race whatsoever. We don't have poor black Americans and poor white Americans and poor Mexican Americans, etc. We have poor Americans. If the poorest ones happen to be black, by all means help them in a proportionate manner.

[Chuck Nessa]

OK folks, we have a 4 page thread, with 8 people posting. Lots of us only did it once (including me). This is really important. Let us hear from the rest of you.

Step up to the plate.

[Johnny E]

What I find interesting with the Affirmative Action thing is that it actually is addressing race. Couldn't a program be enacted which helps people on a strictly financial basis? The most deserving people of the lowest tax bracket? Why do we need to address it racially, when it could be addressed financially?

I agree with this 100%. But the problem is that the same people who are screaming bloody murder about affirmative action would be branding you a pink-o commie rat if you even thought about trying to push this notion forward. Race keeps poor people hating one another even though they are more or less in the same boat. In this way the ruling class in America can go about their business unfettered by pesky problems of class inequality.

I know you've all heard it before, but racism is propagated by the ruling class (primarily white men of the elephantine persuasion). Any utterance of wealth relocation in this country is stomped on faster than a Nolan Ryan fastball, and the messengers are quickly discredited by smear campaigns and character assassination.

For being a Christian nation we sure as hell will do anything to hold onto our own and forsake the well being of others as easily as defecating.

[Rooster_Ties]

OK folks, we have a 4 page thread, with 8 people posting. Lots of us only did it once (including me). This is really important. Let us hear from the rest of you.

Step up to the plate.

Thank you, Chuck, thank you, thank you, thank you. I can't tell you how good it feels to get some (more) recognition that this is an important topic. (Not that I want the recognition, which I don't) - but that I want the topic to have some recognition, and some more participation.

And if I might be curt for a moment, I think this really is an important topic - and there are a whole bunch of you that post all the time in many, many of the political threads. Suck it up, and post your thoughts here. Yeah, this ain't easy, but it does matter - and I think it matters more than most of the "he said, she said" style political arguments/banter than goes on in this area of the board. That has it's place (which is fine), but often it isn't aimed at an honest exchange of ideas, and certainly isn't aimed towards finding some constructive ideas for change.

All that said, I'll also say that I truly appreciate the feedback this thread has already gotten already, and I genuinely welcome some more feedback about this topic, from all viewpoints.

And, while I'm on a bit of a tear (I'm 'buzzing' a bit now, which I don't frequently do -- the pitcher of margaritas my wife and I got at dinner was twice as big as we expected, and I drank 2/3rds of it, cuz she drinks even less than I do - and luckily we walked to a restaurant that was only two blocks from our home, that we somehow had never been to in our 6 years of living in this neighborhood), I want to publicly thank Conn500 for stepping back towards the 'center' in his argument against Affirmative action. I don't think he's changed his opinion about it (nor do I think he should, necessarily), but I can't say how much I appreciate his willingness to step back a little from his prior post, and rethink his position, or at least re-explain it in a way that is a little less --- god, how to say this without seeming like I was offended by it, which I wasn't --- to re-explain it in a way that recognizes that other people might have other opinions which might also be (at least) grounded in some observations that have some validity too. (And IMHO, we don't see this kind of behavior nearly enough in our political threads. Thank you, Conn500.)

Hey board mods!!! (b3-er and/or Use3D) how's about we get this topic 'pinned'??? I keep trying to find subtle ways of bumping it up in the list of daily topics, and frankly, I think this is one of the most important political threads going on now.

Thanks!!! -- Rooster T.

[connoisseur series500]

And, while I'm on a bit of a tear (I'm 'buzzing' a bit now, which I don't frequently do -- the pitcher of margaritas my wife and I got at dinner was twice as big as we expected, and I drank 2/3rds of it, cuz she drinks even less than I do), I want to publicly thank Conn500 for stepping back towards the 'center' in his argument against Affirmative action. I don't think he's changed his opinion about it (nor do I think he should, necessarily), but I can't say how much I appreciate his willingness to step back a little from his prior post, and rethink his position, or at least re-explain it in a way that is a little less --- god, how to say this without seeming like I was offended by it, which I wasn't --- to re-explain it in a way that recognizes that other people might have other opinions which might also be (at least) grounded in some observations that have some validity too. (And IMHO, we don't see this kind of behavior nearly enough in our political threads. Thank you, Conn500.)

[

Thanks for your comments, Rooster.

This is a difficult issue to deal with here in the States. As mentioned in an earlier thread, I grew up with black people and have been with them all my life, aside from an 11-year stint in Asia.

Which brings up an anecdote: Once in Bangkok I was waiting for one of the buses at a stop along with the usual small crowd doing the same thing. A bus stopped and disgorged three black people who I pretty quickly assessed were African tourists. They stood by in order to wait for a connecting bus. After some time, these three guys seemed to become more and more isolated as the boundary which separated them from the other people waiting for a bus seemed to grow larger and larger. I decided to take action and with some ostentation purposely stood next to them. This was years ago, and I don't recall if I said anything or vice versa; or what their expressions showed, but the racial paranoia was palpable and I wanted nothing to do with it. Thai people aren't bad people or anything, and I don't want to imply any such thing, but their society like much of Asia is homogenous. I suppose it was difficult for them.

Anyway, race relations is a taboo subject here in America; and we bandy the term of "racism" around a little too easily when some people try to express themselves on the subject. I hope along with Rooster and Chuck that others will post their thoughts as well.

[J Larsen]

Hey Johnny, I'm a little less conspiratorial about it, but I basically agree with your last post. I'm just saying that because I can't help but feel like you must think I'm constantly jumping down your throat.

Here's my take on affirmative action: on a certain level, it does make sense. Generally speaking, employers and academic institutions have never hired/taken students based solely on their credentials. They (at least the best ones) have also tried to take potential into account. To my mind, affirmative action programs are simply an acknowledgement that for certain groups of people, credentials do not always give an accurate indicator of potential. For instance, you can have a kid who might have the potential to be a great mathematician, but if he's never had access to decent schools, you can't expect that talent to have translated into a publication list, academic awards, etc. That being said, I am not comfortable with race being the relevant variable in the affirmative action equation. Poverty prevents people of all races from exploring their potential. I am a white guy from a bad neighborhood who went to incredibly shitty public schools and grew up with basically no connections whatsoever. My girlfriend is a black woman from a rich neighborhood who went to elite private schools and whose parents are fairly well connected. We are both graduate students working on our PhDs in the mathematical sciences (I'm in physics, she's in atmospheric modeling). Neither of us thinks it makes sense that she has had preferential treatment with regards to university admissions, government research grants, etc.

Edited May 16, 2003 by J Larsen

[connoisseur series500]

My girlfriend is a black woman from a rich neighborhood who went to elite private schools and whose parents are fairly well connected. We are both graduate students working on our PhDs in the mathematical sciences (I'm in physics, she's in atmospheric modeling).

Told you all that Caribbean immigrants do well in the States!

[J Larsen]

They were (are) a great success story. They immigrated to America in the 60s, went to work at an investment bank and went on to both have outstanding careers in finance. Their final employer was one of the big five investment houses. They accrued massive stock options which they cashed in early 2000, right before the crash. Now they live in a staffed 10,000 sq. foot mansion.

[connoisseur series500]

They were (are) a great success story. They immigrated to America in the 60s, went to work at an investment bank and went on to both have outstanding careers in finance. Their final employer was one of the big five investment houses. They accrued massive stock options which they cashed in early 2000, right before the crash. Now they live in a staffed 10,000 sq. foot mansion.

May God bless them!! Warms my heart to hear it. :rsmile:

[Jazzmoose]

Actually, I thought about my statement about exchanging places and now feel that it would depend on what we mean by exchanging places. Do we mean that I suddenly develop dark skin? If so, I would do it, I think. (Obviously, I would have to really think it over before making the final decision.) I would do it because I already have all the skills, and knowledge and life experience that I do have, and I feel that I would advance rather easier. Imagine if I were an applicant for a teaching position at a college or something, I feel I would have a tremendous advantage if I were black.

I must admit, this shocks me. I really don't think you understand what it means to be black in America. (Yeah, right; like I do! ) I don't think too many whites would be able to function in the long run if they suddenly "became black" overnight. Without the family training and life experiences that African-Americans have with dealing with the daily racism, I think it would most likely overwhelm us. I know that, with my personality, if I had to deal with the crap I've seen African-American friends go through, I couldn't take it.

[JSngry]

There are no easy and/or immediate solutions to the race problem in America. There might not even be any difficult and/or longterm solutions. The scars of slavery, not just the financial scars, but the cultural and emotional scars, still linger on today in spite of there having been enormous improvements over the last 30 or so years (along with a few setbacks in the last 20). These scars need neither be dwelt upon or ignored, but they do need to be acknowledged, because they have played a large part in creating the racial schisms that exist in America today, schisms that go farther and deeper than the natural human inclination to associate primarily with one's "own kind".

Myself, I gre up in an extremely racist area of America, and upon leaving it for college, entered into about a 15 year period of working and associating primarily with African-Americans, not by some conscious choice or rebellion against my point of origin, but just because that's how things worked out in terms of things like music, roomates, etc (it all began with the music though - that was the catalyst). I learned a WHOLE lot in those years, not just about Blacks, but about Whites as well. The most important thing was how each group percieves the other when they think nobody's listening. Many Blacks have as much distrust of Whites as Whites have fear of Blacks, and each group can provide plenty of anecdotal evidence to support their feelings, and that is not to be discounted on either side.

But that doesn't excuse it either. How I always got along was simple - I treated everybody as an individual ("conservatives", don't cheer just yet...), and that included recognizing and respecting their background, racial and otherwise. Some of the absolute SMARTEST (and some of the dumbest!) people I've ever met were hustlers on the street - brilliant minds at work in an unsanctioned economy. If you try to "reach out" to these guys in the "spirit of brotherhood", they'll play you mercilessly, just as they'll suddenly become absolutely invisible if you try to "straighten them out". You got to be true to your own code while at the same time respecting theirs - respect does NOT equal approval, contrary to what the more moralistic among us try to persuade.

Similalry, I learned very early on that there is as diverse a makeup of interests, personalities, and beliefs in the African-American community as there is in any other sector of America. The notion of "Black People", used scornfully OR "desiringly", is a doomed one, because there just ain't no such simple a classification, not even in a simple matter like skin color! You want to make friends with "Black People"? Well, good luck - next time you go to buy an automobile, when the salesman asks you what you're looking for, tell him, "a car" and see how far you get - it's the same thought process. I don't say that to be cruel or cutting, but merely to point out that America went through its "Brotherhood" stage. It was fun while it lasted, and it served a useful purpose. But it's past time to move on to the next level, which is simply acknowledging differences and commonalities alike and relating to others as individuals. Again, however, relating to people as individuals means KNOWING WHERE THEY'RE COMING FROM. Not just in some vague, academic fashion, but instead having a PERSONAL sympathy to why Mr. X always seems distrustful, or why Mrs. Z seems so nice to your face but never REALLY gets friendly. Some people are going to be assholes no matter what, but SOME people have reasons, and it behooves us to try to understand those reasons if we wish to establish anything remotely resembling true communication with them. I can't stress my belief in this enough!

And - if you automatically assumed that the above-named Mr. X & Mrs. Z were black, well, the jokes on you! Maybe they are, but maybe they're not! It's normal, healthy, necessary even, for white folks with a conscience to go through a phase of somehow being "ashamed" of being white - our race collectively has contributed, and continues to contribute, to so much of the ill-will, mistrust, and unease between races in America. But, just as it's wrong for whites to think in terms of "Black People", it's also wrong for us to think of ourselves in terms of "White People" too. THAT contributes to the division just as much as anything. Think about it - how can you relate to another person as a true individual, or expect them to be able to relate to YOU as an individual, free of all the bullshit that "society" imposes in that way, if you can't think of YOURSELF in that way? Not every white guy is the Devil, and not every black guy is a martyr.

The "problem" with relating to people as individuals is that so often it takes time for for a MUTUAL relationship to develop. People want a quick-fix, and there ain't none. The history of America has taken care of that quite nicely, thank you. But it's been my experience that friendhips that coalesce around TRUE respect and commonalities between people of different races come about once the barriers are eliminated the old-fashioned way - by just dealing with it, rolling with the punches, and in general dealing with the bullshit as it comes up (and it does, most assuredly) rather than trying to run an end-around on it. There's STILL a lot of conscientious "reaching out" going on between the races, where everybody is all smiles and glows and aren't we all just SO happy. That kind of superficiality, as my father used to say, "won't last until the water gets hot". The answer to Rodney King's famous question is "Yes, absolutely. But not all at once, and not all the time." To pretend otherwise is to ignore basic human nature, and how many times has THAT failing bit our collective butts?

Personally, I'm at the point now where my friends and professional associates are indeed a "rainbow coalition" of races and cultures. Tellingly, though, my BEST friends of other races are all people I've know for quite a while. It's still MUCH easier to make friends with somebody of my own race than it is somebody else. But that's cool. Like I said - there are barriers, and there probably always WILL be barriers. But I didn't put them there, and neither did the other guy. But time, and ONLY time, will reveal to him/her what kind of a person I am and what kind of a person they are. I'm old enough and have had enough life experiences to know a fair amount of what makes people tick, both as individuals and as part of a larger "group", and I always try to conduct myself accordingly (in public, in private, and with myself - you gotta be consistent, and that's a tough one there! ). If a bond is eventually formed, it will be real and lasting. If not, c'est la'vie. You don't HAVE to like everybody, nor does everybody have to like you, even if their basis for not liking you is one that is entirely (or at least largely) inside them. Not everybody can hurdle every barrier every time.

That's life, dig?

[connoisseur series500]

[ I must admit, this shocks me. I really don't think you understand what it means to be black in America. (Yeah, right; like I do! ) I don't think too many whites would be able to function in the long run if they suddenly "became black" overnight.

Actually, I might have a decent idea of what it would be like. For one thing, I've been a minority and/or foreigner for most of my life.

In Jamaica, I was a white minority as a boy.

In the US, I was a foreigner with a funny accent as a boy. Since then my accent has disguised itself a bit better.

In Thailand, I was a white minority in a homogenous country.

Bottom line: it sucks when you're a kid; but then it becomes cool to be different once you are an adult. The disadvantage becomes an advantage and you actually become proud of your differences.

Definitely sucks as a kid though with the peer pressure and the overwhelming need to come off as "cool."

[JSngry]

CS 500, I believe you're a good guy without a malicious bone in your body, but there are certain aspects of being an African-AMERICAN that you, through no fault of your own, just don't seem to comprehend (and I strees SEEM to - plese feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), and they have to deal with the legacy (legacies, actually) of slavery. Things like attempting to maintain a solid family structure, a solid business base, a lack of crippling distrust and fatalism, these are all things lurking beneath the surface for many, MANY African-Americans. They are specific to the African-AMERICAN experience. Blacks from the Carribean, Africa, etc. weren't born and raised in this unique dynamic and often don't have any real empathy towards it. Some of the most blistering anti=African-American rhetoric I've ever heard has been from African blacks, who just don't understand why their American brethen can be such a complicated lot. They don't get it because they haven't had it.

Now please don't misconstrue this as the tired old cop-out that slavery and its aftereffects is an excuse for people not seizing control of their lives. It's not, and leaders from W.E.B. DuBois to Marcus Garvey to Malcolm X to Jesse Jackson to Colin Powell have preached and lived that it's not. I'm not looking for an "excuse" of any sort. But the fact remains that the legacies of slavery DO linger on in the collective American subconscious, and for a lot (certainly not all, but a lot) of African-Americans, it's often a little bit more to the fore than in the subconscious.

It's not like anybody has a CHOICE as to whether or not to deal with this or not either. People certainly have a choice of HOW they deal with it, and thankfully, I believe more and more people are beginning to feel enough direct distance from the past, as well as enough solid self-identity, to see it as somting that's just there, something to acknowledge as you move past it, rahter than something to constantly have lurking in the background, ready to strike when you least expect or want it to. But this welcome and positive evolution has taken time, a LONG time, it being an evolution and all.

Think about this - when I first started attending integrated schools in 1965-6, there were a few kids who had greatgrandparents, LIVING ones, who had actually been slaves, grandparents who had lived through the most evil days of Jim Crow, and parents who were right in the thick of getting out from under the fallacious and specious "seperate but equal" system that permeated the American South. Is it realisitic to expect a kid who is born into such an environment to NOT be touched by that history? The kids were (and probably still are ) the same age as me, so they've got kids now that are anywhere from their late teens to early 20s, kids for whom the ex-slave ancestor was never known, but quite possibly all the others were/are.

If you haven't done your homework on how totally and purely EVIL the American system of slavery was, how it totally raped and robbed a people of any sense of self-identity and human worth, how it instigated a whole set of sexual and moral ambiguities into a people, how it basically took them from humans to animals, and then upon it's abolition basically told them to start over, to become fully human again (yet discouraged, crushed even, so many attempts that looked as if they might be TOO successful), PLEASE do so. And try and understand that in terms of how far we as a country are removed from those day in the bigger, truer, sense of time, that it's really not that long ago. The Civil Rights Bill was signed in 1965. Things didn't really begin to settle down until the early 1970s. That's only 30 years ago. Is it reasonable to expect a legacy of several CENTURIES to dissipate, much less become impotent in a mere 30 years? I think not. I think that 30 years is the eqivalent of 30 seconds as far as these things go, and it's going to take a LOT of time for things to begin to balance out (if they ever in fact do - a look around the globe at even longer-lasting ethnic tensions is not encouraging in this regard). It would be wondeful if the avearge human could pick up the daily paper, see what the current conditions were, and immediately program themselves to take full advantage of those conditions by programming out all the things that would interfere with said goal. Unfortunately...

I know lots of white folks with one (or more!) black friends who can, will, and do pooh-pooh this notion of the devastating legacy of slavery. "Why, I asked (insert Friend's name here) about it and he/she nearly laughed out loud at the idea!" is a more than common refrain (dare I call it a mantra?) heard from whites, especially whites who are eager, admiringly so, to move on but less eager to confront exactly why doing so seems to be such a damn laborious process.

Well, if "Friend" did in fact make such a comment, my instinct is to suspect one of four things: 1) Friend is totally clueless; 2) Friend is one of the lucky ones who was born into a family with a multi-generational legacy of strong, directed family life and belief systems (and, truthfully, that's the whole thing in a nutshell right there); 3) Friend has bought into athe system and is using the system, whether or not Friend realizes that Friend is being used every bit as much in return, especially if Friend is eager to present a "Happy Negro" face to the system - let friend get the least bit, uh, "questioning" and watch those opportunnities fly away!; or 4)Friend knows more that he/she is letting on. Shocking as it seems, 4) is a LOT more common than the average white folk realizes (and, perhaps, cares to admit). Like I mentioned earlier, I've had a unique (and, I suspect, relatively rare) opportunity for a large portion of my life to observe racial interaction as a kind of "double agent", in that I found myself able to be involved in regualr everyday life in African-American circles, not as a "white friend", but just as somebody who was just there all the time and as a result, ceased to be "white" anymore (not that I "became black", though, THAT'S impossible unless you're Johnny Otis...) in these circles. Suffice it to say that I don't make the comments I make here based on social theory or intellectual supposition, but instead on real-life experiences obtained over time. What "we" (average white folks) are "allowed" to see ain't always all there is. Believe that. PLEASE believe that.

Far too often than some care to admit, it's DIFFERENT being a Black American. It just is, and wishing it weren't won't, unfortunately, make it so. People are all the same at root,sure, but their LIVES aren't, and that's something that gets overlooked too often. History is a bitch; trying to escape it or transcend it is at least a bitch-and-a-half. Neber, EVER assume that things are as they seem, not with black folks, not with whote folks, not with ANYBODY, because everybody, and I do mean EVERYBODY in this world has issues, some individual, some collective, but ALL issues nevertheless. Therapy 101, lesson 1 is that the only way to get past a problem is to admit to it freely and openly. Part of America still feels a very real effect (an indirect effect, sure, but does that differentiation REALLY matter?) from slavery, and another part seem to be unwilling, DETERMEDLY so some times, to concede that such a thing could possible exist as anything other tha a "bad attitude". Seems to me that if somebody insists to you that they have a problem, and if you want to maintain a productive relationship, that it behooves you to listen - REALLY listen, objectively and without any foregone conclusions coloring your listening (this is one of the MAY things I've learned, often the hard way, from 20 years of marriage...).

Nobody's listening, it seems to me. A lot of white America really DOESN'T have a clue, a lot of black America is convinced that white America just doesn't give a damn AT ALL, and opportunists on both sides find putridly fertile ground for self-serving exploitations. People of good will across the board grow weary from trying to fight the seemingly perpetual headwinds and eventually give up (or worse). I could tell yu stories, and if I get wound up enough, I probably will. But I shouldn't have to - there's stories everywhere you look, IF you know what to look for and where to look for it. You don't need my stories to elucidate the problem.

The problem ain't fixed yet, so it must still be here.

WHAT problem? We don't have a problem anymore.

THAT problem - the one that ain't here no more, even though it hasn't gone away.

Sounds like you're looking for an excuse.

No, I'm looking for a SOLUTION dammit!

A solution to what?

To the problem that ain't fixed yet.

WHAT problem?

...and the band plays on....

GOTS to be a better way.

Edited May 17, 2003 by JSngry

[Christiern]

Pardon my lateness, but I didn't want to join this discussion haphazardly. Thank you, RT, for starting this thread, which is probably the most substantive of all the threads here (and at our other hangs). I am glad to see that no one is making light of the subject. Here is a bit of my background, as it relates to this subject--I'll try to be brief, but I can't promise:

Afterthought:

Damn! I just looked at my rambling. I didn't mean to be that verbose. Rooster Ties, I hope you don't mind, but you asked for it! There's always that scroll button.

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I was born in Iceland, the country of my father's birth. My mother was Danish, and I was raised in both countries. I don't recall seeing a black person until I reached my teens, which is really odd when one considers that I spent close to three years (from age 10 to 13) living in Forest Hills, NY. We made occasional trips to Manhattan, so I must have seen some black people,but it didn't register. That, too, is odd, for I often heard my Danish grandfather speak of black people, always in a positive way. When my posture was bad, he would tell me to "straighten up, walk like an African."

My grandfather went to sea when he was 12, so he had traveled widely and met a diversity of people. At one point, when my mother was 9 or 10, the whole family moved from Copenhagen to St. Thomas and, from there, to Santo Domingo, so my mother went to school with black children. I mention all this, because I think their healthy attitude had a lot to do with how I look at race relations. A few years back, as I went through a pile of old family documents, I came across a letter written to my mother by my grandmother in 1937. I was six years old, and my grandmother was taking care of me for the summer. In the letter, she wrote, "Gunnar (my middle name) is doing fine, he spends his days on the floor with his gramophone, wishing he was a Negro." I do recall seeing a lot of pictures of black kids, and wanting to look like them!

BTW, the records I was playing were not jazz--that interest developed many years later.

When I was in my teens, attending commercial art school in Copenhagen, I happened across a Bessie Smith recording on the Danish radio. I could not understand aa word of what she sang, but there was something so compelling about her voice and delivery that I had to look into it. This, to be brief (ha!), sparked my interest in jazz. Back then, in the post-war years, only three black people lived in all of Denmark, an aging schoolteacher who had migrated from St. Thomas, and two brothers who lived in Jutland Danish. I never saw any of them while living in Denmark, but one of the brothers, John Tchicai, became a friend of mine when we met in New York, almost 20 years later.

As I was drawn into jazz, I began to meet black people, all of whom were performers: Lionel Hampton, Billie Holiday. Roy Eldridge, Ella, and others. Then I decided that I had to immigrate to the U.S., and the easiest way to do that was to apply for a visa from Iceland (I had dual citizenship). Iceland was all-white, even more so than Denmark, but I landed a job with U.S. Armed Forces Radio & TV Service at Keflavík Air Base. As a civilian, I was issued an ID badge, of which there were two kinds: blue for non-Americans, green for Americans. Mine was blue, but the mistakenly issued a green one to my wife, who was Danish. The badges became a lesson in American bigotry, which stood me in good stead as I took up residence here.

My show (I played jazz and pop) was quite popular with the military (we had Army, Navy and Air Force on the base) and civilian population of the base. I was the station's only civilian, and it never occurred to listeners that I was not American. I received an abundance of calls and letters in response to my shows, and never a nasty one among them. However, when I was seen around the base, wearing my blue badge, attitudes changed. There were several instances when I was called "fish head" or "mojack," two derogatory names for Icelanders. One evening, when my wife and I were having a drink in the Civilian Club (her green badge gained us entry), an American woman took her aside in the ladies' room. "What on earth made you marry one of them, dear?," she asked. One New Year's Eve, we were guests at a party in the BOQs (Bachelor Officer's Quarters) when a highly inebriated bird colonel, who obviously had seen me with my badge, told me that fish heads didn't belong at this party! He was overheard by some other officers, who threw him out. Of course, unlike black people, I could simply remove the badge and look like any other white American, but the experience gave me a good sense of what it feels like to be senselessly discriminated against. At this point, I was not relating the badge color discrimination to its racial equivalent--that would come later, when I moved to the U.S.

That was in 1957, I arrived in NYC with $75 (the minimum amount an immigrant was required to have) and not a clue as to what I was going to do. I soon found my way to a little Times Square bar called The Copper Rail, it was an unusual establishment because it was an uptown (i.e. Harlem) bar in the heart of downtown, a place that offered twofers, collard greens, pig's feet, etc., and its patrons were predominantly black. It was common to see Coleman Hawkins whispering in the phone booth, and one could always count on there being an all-star lineup at the bar. Roy Eldridge, whom I had met in Copenhagen, advised me to hang out there, adding, "we'll take care of you." They did, I felt very good in that company, and I learned much as I asked my naïve questions and stared wide-eyed at the likes of Jo Jones, Pee Wee Russell, J.C. Higginbotham, Taps Miller, Gene Krupam and Red Allen.

But hanging out with these performers was only a preliminary course; unbelievably naïve, I still saw racial differences as a visual thing. That would change when I took my last ten dollars to Greyhound and asked if it would get me to another big city. "Three bucks will get you to Philly," the guy said, so I soon found myself on a bus. Again to be brief, it turned out to be the right move, for I was hired as a producer/writer at the city's largest station (WCAU) within a few days. A year later, that led to a disc jockey job on WHAT, an all-jazz station that in itself was a lesson in racism.

WHAT AM and FM was owned by a woman who insisted on being called "Miss B" (her name was Dolly Banks), and she was the first bona fide racist I knew. The AM was all black (gospel and r&b), the FM was all jazz; no blacks were allowed to appear on the FM, no whites on the AM, and she had a black and a white dog named "AM" and "FM." She referred to black people (including her own employees) as "them," and when an insurance company complained that their commercials were attracting "too many Negroes," she called a meeting and told us to stop playing recordings by "coloreds." We talked her out of it.

At WHAT, I was the only white employee who got to know the FM djs and socialize with them. I was so shocked by the racial division I was witnessing, that I occasionally put all records aside and lectured my listeners. A guy named Bill always complained when I played what he called "Uncle Tom" or "Mickey Mouse" music; he was referring to vintage jazz like early Ellington. Hot Fives, Bessie. I was amazed that he seemed unable to recognize the artistry that to me was so evident on those sides, and later, when I met Bill Cosby, I was even more perplexed. At WHAT I soon discovered that Cosby was not alone--many black people were made uncomfortable by sounds that reflected a time of lynchings and other unspeakable acts of discrimination against them. This inspired me to make the occasional pause for a lecture. I explained how highly jazz and blues was regarded in Europe, what pride I would have in this music if I were black, etc.

I was rewarded with wonderful letters and calls, many from black people who said that I had made them listen to the music from another perspective. One caller, Bertha Waters, became a life-long friend, as did her husband, Lester, and six children. Bertha represents the next step in my education. She and Lester knew very few white people--he worked with them at the Signal Corps, but, as so often happens, an integrated working environment does not carry into non-office hours. Anyway, Bertha and I soon realized that our friendship was also a learning experience for both. I introduced the Waters to other white people, they brought me into their family circle. The funny thing is that we did not have to dwell much on race in our conversations--that part of the learning process was seamless and effortless, mostly a matter of experience rather than explanation.

We did, however, make deliberate attempts to educate others. When Bertha and Lester moved to a bigger house--still in a all-black neighborhood--they threw a housewarming party. Their new neighbors had watched carefully as they moved in, so we decided to give them a little show. The house has a back garden, where much of the party activity took place. A Jewish friend of mine and I suggested to Bertha that we pretend to be her servants, summoned to the garden by her hand claps. We had already seen the neighbors hanging out of their windows, straining for a look. The white servants performance so shocked them that they never spoke to the Waters. The lady next door even had a wall erected between the properties, and broken glass was embedded at the top! There were also puzzled stares when I took the kids with me to buy a Christmas tree, etc. Our Jewish friend, Lenny, worked for a big, all-white insurance company in center city. He was tired of his coworkers constantly bringing out a wallet full of family pictures, which everybody had to look at. One day, he borrowed a bunch of photos from Bertha and Lester, and the next time a co-worker decided to display the family photos, Lenny pulled out his wallet for all to see. "This is my cousin Sarah and her husband, this is my mom, this is..." as he held up the pictures of black people and pointed to them with pride, his co-workers all but went into shock. Lenny could pull of this sort of thing with a straight face. I wish I had been there.

I was there when the insurance company had its annual company dinner and dance. It was held in the ballroom of one of the large downtown hotels and Lenny was put in charge of entertainment . We both thought this would be a great opportunity for a demonstration, so I called Elmer Snowden (Duke's first bandleader boss) and asked him to get together an all-black band (which he did, with Beryl Booker at the piano). This all-white company didn't have a single non-white guest at this big affair, but we changed that, for Bertha and Lester were with us, and I told Elmer (who was in on this) to play long selections whenever Bertha or Lester were on the dance floor. He did, and I always remember that wink in his eyes as I danced with Bertha and one of my white lady friends swirled around with Lester.

It has been an amazing experience, all of that, and now I will end this overly long narrative with one final story, something that happened in 1963, when I became a U.S. citizen. I was living in NYC by that time, so it took place here. One has to show up with two witnesses, people who have known you and seen you regularly for the past five years, so Bertha and Lester came in from Philly.

The room was full of citizens to be, and their witnesses, One by one, we were called to step forward and stand before the judge with our witnesses. When I, flanked by Bertha and Lester, heeded the call, the judge looked at us and asked, "Where are your witnesses?" Ellison's Invisible Man was based on a very real perception.

Sixty-seven years have passed since I sat on the floor, winding up the portable gramophone to hear Victor Sylvester's ballroom orchestra play "A Chapel in the Moonlight," and harboring strange desires of racial makeovers. The years have consumed much of my naïvité, but I will forever be grateful to my family for the subtle way in which they opened my mind. I think it is extremely important that we show the folly of hatred?racial or otherwise?to children at an early age.

Today, I have very few white friends, most of whom are business acquaintances, but I did not plan it that way, it's just how things worked out. I think part of it is due to my interest in black music, which brought me into contact with so many great, warm and wonderful people, but, apart from the music, I quickly developed a genuine affinity for black people. I know it sounds banal, but I found my black friends to be very forthcoming and down-to-earth. I could relax in the company of my black friends and their friends more readily than I could with white Americans I met--there often seemed to be a veneer of pretention about them (I was probably traveling in the wrong white circles). Throughout the past forty-five years, my black friends have been there for me--they have fed me, enlightened me, housed me, and given me encouragement when none was to be found elsewhere. I feel deeply honored to have been accepted by so many for whom I have the utmost respect.

I think making a resolute effort to understand another race of people may be a mistake; it is something that should happen almost by default, it is something that happens the right way when people see each other as people. I think a person should not get to know someone of another race in any way that differs from how they would get to know someone of their own race. Sure, there are inevitably cultural differences, but so are there when, say, a French person gets to know a Norwegian. The biggest difference, as I see it, is the history--the decades of animosity, fear, and mistrust that kept whites and blacks apart--once that has been overcome, once the stigmas have been removed, it's really just a matter of living and letting live, of seeing people for what they are. Some will be wonderful, others will be less so.

[J Larsen]

I think making a resolute effort to understand another race of people may be a mistake; it is something that should happen almost by default, it is something that happens the right way when people see each other as people. I think a person should not get to know someone of another race in any way that differs from how they would get to know someone of their own race.

Now that I agree with 100%. The notion of making contrived efforts to meet people of a particular race rubs me the wrong way (and also reminds me of a very funny Seinfeld episode).

[vibes]

Interesting story, Chris. Thanks for posting it.

[connoisseur series500]

CS 500, I believe you're a good guy without a malicious bone in your body, but there are certain aspects of being an African-AMERICAN that you, through no fault of your own, just don't seem to comprehend (and I strees SEEM to - plese feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), and they have to deal with the legacy (legacies, actually) of slavery. Things like attempting to maintain a solid family structure, a solid business base, a lack of crippling distrust and fatalism, these are all things lurking beneath the surface for many, MANY African-Americans. They are specific to the African-AMERICAN experience. Blacks from the Carribean, Africa, etc. weren't born and raised in this unique dynamic and often don't have any real empathy towards it. Some of the most blistering anti=African-American rhetoric I've ever heard has been from African blacks, who just don't understand why their American brethen can be such a complicated lot. They don't get it because they haven't had it.

Don't know if this is any answer, Jim, but although I am an immigrant to this country, I do feel I have an understanding about blacks in America. It is true that I wasn't here during the 60s when you met people who had ex-slave relatives still living, or could themselves remember much of Jim Crow days. That I cannot deny. But does this affect the current generation?

It is interesting, because Caribbean blacks and some Africans also have a sense of fatalism and have difficulty maintaining a nuclear family. I don't know enough about the anthropology of Africa to know whether this is a function of multiple wives and a fatalistic approach to life. I have no real theories on the matter and will decline to state any opinions here.

What I am not sure about is the effects if any of America's slave past on the current generations. Effects there could be, but that can only be conjecture. You obviously see the effects; I am personally unsure if I do.

What I would like to know is this? Apparently, 89% of black kids are born out of wedlock to women aged between 15-25 years old. Was this the case, say in the 1940s or 1950s? How about earlier? If this were true then as well, then I would strongly support the thesis that slavery and its history of breaking up families and encouraging sexual profligacy and a sense of fatalism was the real cause. But if not, then I think we all need to look elsewhere for reasons.

Another interesting fact is that apparently the literacy rate for Black Americans was much higher in the decades after the Civil War than it is today. Hmm, how does that fit in with the thesis of slavery maintaining a stranglehold on today's generations?

I do not claim to have all the statistics, and I would like to hear from others who know more about the subject. How do we explain all this?

I have another anecdote: when the PBS series "The Splendors of Africa" hosted by Harvard professor Gates (forgot his first name) was showing, I watched every episode totally fascinated by what was going on. He hit at Africans pretty hard for their large role in the slave trade, for their perceived barbaric customs, and for their continued practice of slavery today.

I remember meeting with one of my African clients (from Ghana) and I asked with great enthusiasm whether she had been watching the shows. To my astonishment, she said she couldn't stand to watch it anymore as she felt that Africans were being lambasted. She also told me that black Americans seemed to hold some kind of grudge against her. Why? For her people's involvement with the slave trade. You mean they bring that kind of stuff up to you, I asked. Yes, frequently.

Wow, there's a world I never knew or thought about. Things are complicated indeed.

[Jazzmoose]

Paul, I guess it's the history student in me, but I'm stunned at the idea that things that were occuring less than a hundred years ago possibly not having any effect on today. I think this is one of the main problems we have in dealing with race in this country: we (whites) think "slavery happened so long ago; what could it possibly have to do with today?" However, the effects are very much with us today.

Moving on for a bit, here's one thing that amazes me, and tells me that the problems we experience are more than just "racism". I can't speak for anyone else, but I know that if I'm talking to several African-Americans, the vibe and my feelings are very, very different than when talking to several Africans. It's a totally different situation. Suddenly, when I hear an African accent, the baggage just isn't there anymore. Maybe it's just me, maybe it isn't. Has anyone else out there gone through this?

[connoisseur series500]

Depends on whether I know that person or not.

[connoisseur series500]

Paul, I guess it's the history student in me, but I'm stunned at the idea that things that were occuring less than a hundred years ago possibly not having any effect on today.

Definitely true; although we are talking about 138 years ago in regards to slavery. Ok, that's splitting hairs!

I do admit that you make a strong point here.

On another note, I wonder if years of Russian serfdom has affected the average Russian today. Serfdom in Russia ended with Alexander II, if my memory is correct and it occurred around the time that slavery was abolished in the US. It would make an interesting study.

Edited May 18, 2003 by connoisseur series500

[Rooster_Ties]

Thank you, RT, for starting this thread, which is probably the most substantive of all the threads here (and at our other hangs). I am glad to see that no one is making light of the subject.

And thank you, Christiern, for posting in this thread - and espcially for such an interesting story.

This thread is probably going nearly as well as I could have ever hoped -- which is to say that I think it is going pretty well. No easy answers (and I never thought there would be), but I'm really enjoying such an honest exchange of ideas, without all the fighting we usually find in many of the political threads.

Thanks!! -- Rooster T.

[Jazzmoose]

Definitely true; although we are talking about 138 years ago in regards to slavery. Ok, that's splitting hairs!

Yeah, slavery was that long ago. However, at least in the South, African-Americans weren't able to vote until less than 40 years ago. When I lived in Georgia, as late as the mid seventies there were still gas stations with three bathrooms: Men, Women, and Colored. It just wasn't that long ago...