Miles Davis & Sam Rivers

[ghost of miles]

Hey all,

I know there's a Sam Rivers discussion going on elsewhere, but this is a kind of offshoot... I'm putting together a "Night Lights" program that focuses on Rivers' time with Miles in 1964, as well as some of Rivers' recordings for Blue Note with Miles sidemen in 1964-65, and wondered what your thoughts were as to why Sam's stay with Miles did not "work out," as it were. The conventional wisdom seems to be that Rivers was not willing to accommodate himself to Miles' aesthetic vision, or that he was more avant-garde in his direction than Miles was willing to be at that time. I'm not sure I really buy that, listening to what I've heard of both Rivers w/Miles in 1964 (two live performances in Japan that exist outside of MILES IN TOKYO) and Rivers' own work for Blue Note shortly thereafter. I mean, there may be some grains of truth there, but such explanations strike me as terribly reductive.

[ghost of miles]

I just did some Googling and came up with this Jazz at Lincoln Center webchat that Rivers did about four years ago:

Jonathan Feldman

Brooklyn, NY

On Miles Davis's "Live in Tokyo" album you stole the show. How did it feel to be so young and upstaging the most famous jazz musician in the world at that time?

Sam Rivers

Actually I was older than Miles at the time - by a year or two. I really didn't think I upstaged him. He sounded really good. He was sick at the time, but he sounded great. We were good friends, even throughout his whole life. When I played with Dizzy Gillespie, we talked all the time. I was just supposed to play with Miles until Art Blakey came back off tour with Wayne Shorter, and it was supposed to be a transfer, but I joined with Andrew Hill instead. There wasn't any animosity - that's just the way it went down. Miles had wanted Wayne for many years before that.

Full webchat here. Rivers was supposed to join the Messengers?!

Edited July 17, 2004 by ghost of miles

[Late]

I've often wondered about this musical relationship as well. I actually don't think it's reductive, though, to simply say that their musical visions didn't gel. My guess is that Miles just didn't like Sam's playing. Now that sounds really reductive, and maybe it is, but it could be the simple truth. (Miles was on record, publicly, as not caring for Dolphy's or Ornette's playing, so it's not too surprising to me to imagine him not caring for Rivers' playing.)

A reverse scenario is interesting to consider: How well would Miles have fit in for the recording of Dimensions & Extensions, or, for that matter, Tony Williams' Spring? I think Miles' musical training, as strange as this is going to sound, often prevented him from "hearing" certain musical contexts. Here's one quote from Miles on Ornette (for relativity):

"Hell, just listen to what he writes and how he plays. If you're talking psychologically, the man is all screwed up inside."

Jazz Masters of the 50's

And another (this time for a DownBeat Blindfold Test on Cecil Taylor's "Lena"):

"Take it off! That's some sad shit, man. In the first place, I hear some Charlie Parker clichés. They don't even fit. Is that what the critics are digging? ... Just to take something like that and say it's great, because there ain't nothing to listen to, that's like going out and getting a prostitute. ... I can tell he's influenced by Duke, but to put the loud pedal on the piano and make a run is very old-fashioned to me. ... That's the reason I don't buy any records."

Now, we all know that Davis was (surely) outspoken, but this (just as surely) didn't negate his opinions. It's strange. For as much as he didn't seem to appreciate Rivers' playing, he did appreciate George Coleman's ... but Tony Williams didn't, and there went George (more or less).

Good question!

[Late]

Oh. The interview you Googled up kinda deflates some of my "theories"? I still wonder what Miles actually would have said about Rivers' playing.

[ghost of miles]

I've often wondered about this musical relationship as well. I actually don't think it's reductive, though, to simply say that their musical visions didn't gel.

Late,

No doubt my statement was terribly reductive in and of itself. I'm so distrustful of much jazz history "conventional wisdom" that sometimes I'm inclined to dismiss theories and/or ideas that are solidly grounded in reality. The Rivers 2000 webchat may put the question paid in some respects, but I still wonder--I mean, if Miles had loved Sam's playing & how he fit in with the group, would he still have wanted Shorter back? Would it, or did it, cause a dilemma for Miles at all? (Seemingly it didn't.) Is that all that Rivers' stay with Davis was--a stopgap measure until Shorter was done with the Messengers? I'm the last person on earth to doubt Sam Rivers' word; he strikes me as close to a holy man of jazz.

And I'm still trying to imagine what the Messengers would have sounded like with Rivers on tenor. Who did replace Shorter, after John Gilmore's abbreviated spell w/Blakey?

[Late]

I still wonder--I mean, if Miles had loved Sam's playing & how he fit in with the group, would he still have wanted Shorter back? Would it, or did it, cause a dilemma for Miles at all?

Good questions.

I'd guess that Miles probably wanted Shorter over Rivers (so to speak) for the band. It did cause Miles some consternation when Coltrane left the band, but it doesn't have seemed to (from the little I know) when Rivers left. Maybe we'll never really know (and that's probably OK).

Do you think it might be possible that Rivers' reflections on his stay with the band could be tinged with revisionism? To me at least, that's not out of the question. Who would want to say "I just didn't really feel comfortable in the band of ... Miles Davis"?

[Guy Berger]

I've often wondered about this musical relationship as well. I actually don't think it's reductive, though, to simply say that their musical visions didn't gel. My guess is that Miles just didn't like Sam's playing. Now that sounds really reductive, and maybe it is, but it could be the simple truth. (Miles was on record, publicly, as not caring for Dolphy's or Ornette's playing, so it's not too surprising to me to imagine him not caring for Rivers' playing.)

David,

I'm probably regurgitating stuff you've seen, but have you checked out the liner notes for the SR Mosaic? Michael Cuscuna includes some interesting comments from one of the rhythm section members about Sam's tenure in the band.

Not sure if you've checked out Rick Lopez's website, but he quotes the following about Rivers's tenure with Miles:

# "My first choice to replace George was Wayne Shorter, but Art Blakey had made him musical director of the Jazz Messengers and he couldn't leave then. So we hired Sam Rivers." --Miles Davis

# 64.00.00 - "According to Gary Giddins [in the liner notes of "Miles Davis-Heard 'Round The World" Columbia, C238506] Miles approached Sonny Stitt, Jimmy Heath and Eric Dolphy before hiring George Coleman. Big George left suddenly before the Japan tour and Miles hired Sam Rivers almost purely on Tony's recommendation." [Gordon Blewis posting to Miles-list 95.08.15]

# "I believe that [Rivers] was music director for T-Bone Walker when Miles called him." [Peter Kaz posting to Miles-list 95.07.28]

I think the bit about Miles approaching Dolphy is interesting. Maybe Eric's death could have been avoided... On the other hand, this pairing would probably have been a disaster.

Also... I wonder whether Miles's feelings about Cecil had changed over the next few years. Chick's playing with the Lost Quintet drew a lot of inspiration from Cecil...

Guy

[ghost of miles]

David,

I'm probably regurgitating stuff you've seen, but have you checked out the liner notes for the SR Mosaic? Michael Cuscuna includes some interesting comments from one of the rhythm section members about Sam's tenure in the band.

Not sure if you've checked out Rick Lopez's website, but he quotes the following about Rivers's tenure with Miles:

# "My first choice to replace George was Wayne Shorter, but Art Blakey had made him musical director of the Jazz Messengers and he couldn't leave then. So we hired Sam Rivers." --Miles Davis

# 64.00.00 - "According to Gary Giddins [in the liner notes of "Miles Davis-Heard 'Round The World" Columbia, C238506] Miles approached Sonny Stitt, Jimmy Heath and Eric Dolphy before hiring George Coleman. Big George left suddenly before the Japan tour and Miles hired Sam Rivers almost purely on Tony's recommendation." [Gordon Blewis posting to Miles-list 95.08.15]

# "I believe that [Rivers] was music director for T-Bone Walker when Miles called him." [Peter Kaz posting to Miles-list 95.07.28]

Guy

Guy,

I'm planning on re-reading the Rivers Mosaic booklet tomorrow as I work on the show. Thanks much for the link & the other comments.

Late, despite my reverence for Rivers, I realize that he is indeed human and that his 2000 comments might be tinged with revisionism... yet maybe this issue is much simpler than I'm trying to make it, and Miles just wanted somebody to keep the chair warm for Shorter. But I seem to recall Rivers himself once saying that his own musical inclinations at the time were more "out" than what Miles wanted... I'll have to see if I can track down the source for that comment.

[Late]

I seem to recall Rivers himself once saying that his own musical inclinations at the time were more "out" than what Miles wanted... I'll have to see if I can track down the source for that comment.

I've read that too, and now (too) can't exactly remember where. (And, though you already likely know, my reverence for Rivers is huge ... too.) I'm eagerly awaiting the Seven Steps to Brooklyn ( ) set.

[ghost of miles]

If I come across the source, I'll post it.

I'm eagerly awaiting the Seven Steps to Brooklyn (  ) set.

To paraphrase another board member, Inferno affirmative!

[ghost of miles]

This comes from the website that Guy mentioned:

Miles in Tokyo 64.07.14

"The author of the [Live in Tokyo] liner notes mentions that Davis did three concerts with Rivers in the quintet in Japan. This disc is taken from the second concert. It was released somewhat later than the concert itself, and he talks about how he remembered the version of My Funny Valentine, and how pleased he was that they got it on tape.

He also talks about the trouble Davis had finding a saxophonist for his band at that time. He had wanted Shorter for a few years, but Shorter kept turning him down.

The notes go on to say that Tony Williams recommended Rivers, but that Rivers and Davis did not get along musically. Rivers was musically more "outside" than Davis was. Davis could handle that type of music, but Miles was also interested in keeping his music commercially accessible. Rivers also was not interested too much in playing things like 'My Funny Valentine.'

The first concert supposedly did not go well. Rivers was playing outside, and Davis was playing inside, and the thing did not jell. The recording comes from the second concert, and apparently the two men tried to reach a musical accommodation with each other. Rivers played more inside than usual, and Davis seemed to be playing a bit more outside than usual. The result is a unique document.

At the third concert, the musical compromise fell apart, and it was apparently as unsatisfying as the first concert.

Rivers left the band shortly thereafter.

-- Bill Sakovich

Vladimir Simosko adds:

"...contrary to the liners... quoted, I'd have to suggest that to my ears the Kyoto concert was superior to Tokyo. A private tape of it was circulating 'way back and I've listened to both concerts in order. Both private tapes (Tokyo was not yet released) were in excellent fidelity and the tunes were almost the same... Ever since Tokyo was issued, I've been hoping Kyoto would follow, but no luck so far."

Okay, but here's another pickle: if Rivers was too "outside" for what Miles was up to, why was he working as a musical director for T-Bone Walker, according to Peter Kaz? I love T-Bone and I know that a paying gig is a paying gig--maybe I'm showing my non-musicianship here, and Sam would've approached a frontline soloing gig w/Miles in a much different vein than a musical director chair for Walker.

FWIW, Rivers doesn't sound as outside to me on the 7/12/64 concert as the above implies. But perhaps my ears are wearing the "40 years later" filters.

[.:.impossible]

I seem to remember reading that it was Tony Williams (mostly), Herbie Hancock, and Ron Carter that requested Miles pursue Sam Rivers after the split with George Coleman. Miles' first choice was Wayne Shorter, who was currently employed as director of Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers, so Miles gave into the rest of the band and hired Sam Rivers. Sam was with T-Bone Walker until July of 1964, when he joined the Miles Davis Quintet for Japan.

Before joining, he had already developed an interest in the new wave, as were Tony Williams, Herbie Hancock, and Ron Carter. To a degree. I think the recordings paint a pretty accurate picture of this. When Miles Davis solos, the band plays one way. When Sam Rivers solos, the band plays all kinds of ways!

Late summer, early fall, after more than two years of pursuance from Miles Davis, Wayne Shorter joined the band. John Gilmore replaced Wayne Shorter with the Jazz Messengers, and Sam Rivers went on to play with Andrew Hill. This was around the same time Tony Williams recorded Lifetime, a radically different record from anything these musicians were doing with Miles Davis' Quintet at the time.

I think it was just natural progression. Sam Rivers was rapidly developing during this time, when Miles was re-focusing and trying to get THE band together. He wanted to be elsewhere, and Miles wanted Wayne Shorter, who had finally become available.

With Miles, it seems there was always another story...

[.:.impossible]

I remember a decent discussion on this band, probably at BNBB. Hopefully Lon will tune in soon. I seem to remember he had a good deal of insight on this period in time.

[Lazaro Vega]

While waiting it might be a good time to try and define in words what is meant by "inside" and "outside" playing in the context of the band. Inside the chord changes, or staying near the melody? Swing time, rubato or pulse rhythms? Where does blues expressiveness end and freer expressiveness begin? Since Miles band in this period was also going towards modes as a primary means of organizing the improvisations, may it have been that was too "lean" on musical material for Rivers to fully realize the sounds he was hearing and trying to get out the horn?

Miles mid-60's bands were not THAT commercial. 15 minute versions of "My Funny Valentine"? The "time, no changes" feel of that classic rhythm section?

Questions for discussion.

[.:.impossible]

According to the sessionography, Sam Rivers played stateside with the Miles Davis Quintet as early as April. They didn't travel to Japan until July, which leaves a lot to the imagination! Reading some of the recollections above leads me to believe that things sort of finally came to a head between Sam Rivers and Miles Davis during their stay in Japan.

[MartyJazz]

I was fortunate enough to be quite friendly with Sam back in the mid '70s when he presided over numerous concerts at his Studio Rivbea in the east Village. On one occasion circa the summer of '74, I mentioned to Sam that I had just received an open reel dub of a concert he had done with Miles back in July '64. He said that it had been released on Japanese CBS. I replied, no, that this was the Kyoto concert held the following evening. His eyes opened wide and he asked if he could come over to my place to hear it with his wife, Bea. "Of course", instantly realizing that this would be one of life's high moments of existence. Well, he and Bea did come over on a Saturday afternoon. We proceeded to "light up", and as I played the open reel tape, I dubbed it onto a 2nd open reel to give to him. Needless to say, it was a memorable day and I particularly recall his & Bea's enjoyment of the "Oleo" track.

To get to the point of this thread, I asked him why his stint with Miles was so short. He didn't reveal much other than to say that he was enthusiastic about hooking up with Andrew Hill shortly thereafter.

[ghost of miles]

Another question, in addition to Lazaro's very telling ones: why is Sony not including the 7/12 and 7/15 concerts in the forthcoming 1963-64 box?

And are there any other musical/audio documents of Miles & Rivers together from earlier that year?

P.S. Just read your post--great story, MartyJazz! Yeah, I like that "Oleo" track quite a lot and intend to play it on the program.

Edited July 17, 2004 by ghost of miles

[Lazaro Vega]

In the new Andrew Hill Jazzpar Octet Cd, Hill mentions Rivers was to have been the saxophonist on "Point of Departure."

[Late]

I thought that was Charles Lloyd?

[Lazaro Vega]

By the way, at the end of the day, Davis was right to hold out for Shorter. Maybe it was Shorter's approximation of Coltrane's sound during that time, or his incredible writing.

Haven't you ever had a woman in your life that you just "had to have," that is, be close to? And whenever the chance came around, no matter who you were with, it was an "if only" idea in the back of your head whenever you saw her?

Seems like Wayne was that kind of musician to Miles. Just had to have him in his band.

[Guy Berger]

I thought that was Charles Lloyd?

Yeah, that's what Hill said in an interview a while back. Lazaro, are you sure the liner notes say "Sam Rivers"?

I'm not sure Rivers makes sense chronologically. Point of Departure was recorded in late March, but Rivers didn't join Miles until April. Wasn't he still in Boston until Miles called him up for the gig?

Guy

[ghost of miles]

I definitely agree, Lazaro. As intriguing as it is to think of what direction the band might have taken with Rivers, it was obviously in both artists' interests to pursue the paths that they did. I just find the whole Davis/Rivers chapter fascinating; I'm calling the program "A Brief Convergence."

Rivers on POINT OF DEPARTURE? Wow... I can imagine that more than I can his joining the Messengers.

[Lazaro Vega]

Hey, you guys are correct, it was Charles Lloyd. Sorry about that. My bad.

Edited July 19, 2004 by Lazaro Vega

[Lazaro Vega]

Re-read that at work tonight...

[Guest youmustbe]

Not that I care that much, but I don't understand Sam 'going' with Andrew Hill, instead of Blakey. Andrew had no gigs at the time.