Leeway Posted September 4, 2004 Report Share Posted September 4, 2004 I picked up a Stanley Turrentine LP, "Rough 'N Tumble." At the bottom of the back cover, in large block letters, it says "MONAURAL" and "Also Available in Stereo." Address given is 43 West 61st St, New York. Here's the odd part: On Side 1, it says "Blue Note- A Division of Liberty Records" On Side 2, the label says, "Blue Note, New York, USA." I've never seen a BN LP with mismatched labels. Maybe some of you who have been collecting longer have (?). Does this seem pretty unusual? Have you come across it before? I'm pretty happy to find a mono copy too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmitry Posted September 4, 2004 Report Share Posted September 4, 2004 I've come across these and have a couple of "mutants". My guess is that these are probably from the early Liberty era days. Your Lp should have a "rudy van gelder" stamped in the run-out groove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeway Posted September 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2004 I've come across these and have a couple of "mutants". My guess is that these are probably from the early Liberty era days. Your Lp should have a "rudy van gelder" stamped in the run-out groove. Yes indeed Dmitry, it has "BNLP 4240" and "van gelder" stamped in the deadwax. Thanks for pointing that out. Do you have the same mismatch (Liberty/NY USA) or some other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted September 4, 2004 Report Share Posted September 4, 2004 Yep, fairly common. I have one or two and have see/heard of more. Mono's of this title are indeed a bit rare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeway Posted September 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2004 (edited) Yep, fairly common. I have one or two and have see/heard of more. Mono's of this title are indeed a bit rare. I'm not sure they are "fairly common," as I've gone through a lot of vinyl myself and not seen it, but obviously they are out there. Wollf, could you be more specific which mismatch you have. I find these kinds of things interesting. I suppose these mismatches take place at the pressing plant, but I wonder why and how they happen? Edit: Let me add that, in the used and rare book trade, where I spent most of my life (and still have a foothold), "rare" is considered something that you run across once in a lifetime. 'Scarce" is maybe once every five years (roughly). "Common" is something you see all the time. I would think by these definitiosn that mismatches (or mutants, as Dmitry calls them) are 'scarce." FWIW Edited September 4, 2004 by Leeway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 Yep, fairly common. I have one or two and have see/heard of more. I agree. The terms "common" and "rare" are subjective of course, but I don't think this is all that unusual, as it probably occured frequently during label transition phases. I've seen/owned and heard about a number of them, and although it does (understandably) make some people curious or excited at first, it becomes routine after awhile. I think I still have one example left, "The Stylings Of Silver" (1562). One side "W. 63rd", one side "NY USA". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 My copy of Henderson/Our Thing is Lib one side and NY USA the other. Seems like I have another, but can't recall at moment. Let's say scarce. You are right, they are not common. They may be more common than a mint original Our Thing, though. I see them listed on Ebay from time to time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 I've come across these and have a couple of "mutants". My guess is that these are probably from the early Liberty era days. Forgot to mention- the "mutants" occured with each label transition, so you'll see Lexington/W 63rd mismatches; W63rd/NY USA; NY USA/Liberty; etc etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeway Posted September 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 Well, I'm glad we got THAT settled I'm calm now I can just see the scene at the record pressing plant: JOE: Hey, Charlie, you runnin that Blue Note stuff? CHARLIE: Yeah, runnin it right now. JOE: Did you see those new labels they sent us.. Library or Liberty or somethin? CHARLIE: Uuuh, nah, aint seen nothin JOE: Oh yeah, new owners, new labels. CHARLIE: Oh, uh, um, yeah, OK, hey Joe, I gotta go fix somethin... see ya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 Now... if you found a Lexington / Liberty combination, you'd have a real scoop (and a potential scandal ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmitry Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 JOE: Did you see those new labels they sent us.. Library or Liberty or somethin? if Joe wasn't a complete schmoo he knew that Liberty was a much bigger fish than BN. They had Julie London, Del Shannon, Eddie Cochran, Bobby Vee, The Alladin label, among much other stuff. In 1963 Si Woronker and Al Bennett sold the company to Avnet, an electronics corp for $12 million. Woronker retired, but Bennett stayed with Liberty. In 1965 Bennett bought Liberty back from Avnet for $8 million. In 1968 Transamerica Corp acquired Liberty for $38 million [wow, you go Bennett!]. In 1978 Liberty and United Artists masters were sold to a couple of private investors who somehow borrowed money from EMI, but defaulted the very next year and that's how Blue Note became a bastard child of EMI. ..recalling what I read about the history of Liberty on a discographical page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 What did Bennett do between 65 and 68 besides buy Blue Note? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted September 5, 2004 Report Share Posted September 5, 2004 Now... if you found a Lexington / Liberty combination, you'd have a real scoop (and a potential scandal ). I have a couple of Lexington/NY USA combinations which I found shocking enough - but so far no Lexington/Liberty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeway Posted September 6, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2004 I just want to add that I gave the LP a spin, and it is a MUTHA! Talk about total presence and impact. I felt like I was right there with Mr. Turrentine. And thanks for all the good info. I learned something, and that's what it's all about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted September 6, 2004 Report Share Posted September 6, 2004 I have a couple of Lexington/NY USA combinations which I found shocking enough - but so far no Lexington/Liberty. How about a Lexington & Concord? (Where's the Groucho Marx smiley when I need it...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted September 6, 2004 Report Share Posted September 6, 2004 (edited) I have a couple of Lexington/NY USA combinations which I found shocking enough - but so far no Lexington/Liberty.  How about a Lexington & Concord? (Where's the Groucho Marx smiley when I need it...). What a weird concept. I guess side 1 would have a Blakey/Silver session. Side 2 something from Scott Hamilton and Warren Vache.. Edited September 6, 2004 by sidewinder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 Now... if you found a Lexington / Liberty combination, you'd have a real scoop (and a potential scandal ). Strangely, I've seen Lex/NY USA combinations on more than one occasion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 I have a couple of Lexington/NY USA combinations which I found shocking enough - but so far no Lexington/Liberty.  How about a Lexington & Concord? (Where's the Groucho Marx smiley when I need it...). What a weird concept. I guess side 1 would have a Blakey/Silver session. Side 2 something from Scott Hamilton and Warren Vache.. I was going to say Paul Revere and The Raiders... but I didn't (but now I did). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 Now... if you found a Lexington / Liberty combination, you'd have a real scoop (and a potential scandal ). Strangely, I've seen Lex/NY USA combinations on more than one occasion. Not as strange as Lex / Lib, but still a bit strange, I would think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 (edited) My 'Clifford Brown Memorial Album' has this combo (Lexington DG side 1, NY USA DG side 2). Edited September 11, 2004 by sidewinder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeway Posted September 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 So how does this mismatch actually happen? I don't know how labels are applied at the pressing plants. Do they do a run of Side 1s, then Side 2s? And somehow in between they find out they need to use a different label? Or do they have a batch of labels sitting there and just decide to use both? Can anyone enlighten me on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter A Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 So how does this mismatch actually happen? I don't know how labels are applied at the pressing plants. Do they do a run of Side 1s, then Side 2s? And somehow in between they find out they need to use a different label? Or do they have a batch of labels sitting there and just decide to use both?  Can anyone enlighten me on this?  Sometimes 63rd NYC labels, or even Lexington labels, were used in the Liberty era (1967 -). These "fake" originals can be recognised as they do not have a deep groove or the ear mark in the dead wax. At that time Blue Note simply used labels from old stock. One should realise that Blue Note was a relatively small company. I have many Blue Note LP's with mixed labels: Lex/63 NY 23, 63 NY 23/63rd NYC, 63rd NYC/New York etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 Sometimes 63rd NYC labels, or even Lexington labels, were used in the Liberty era (1967 -). These "fake" originals can be recognised as they do not have a deep groove or the ear mark in the dead wax. At that time Blue Note simply used labels from old stock. One should realise that Blue Note was a relatively small company. I have many Blue Note LP's with mixed labels: Lex/63 NY 23, 63 NY 23/63rd NYC, 63rd NYC/New York etc. Hmm, not to be argumentative (and I certainly can not disprove your opening sentence), but I'm just curious. What is your source of information for making that opening statement? Your list of mismatched labels doesn't include any Lexington/Div. of Liberty pairing, so I don't know if you've actually seen this, or just heard about it occuring. It seems like a bit of a stretch to me, to think that pairing could occur- even given what we know about the more common types of mismatches and the reason that they occured. Would a Lexington label still be lying around after ten years of label changes and the various reissues that took place? Also, your use of the term "fake" serves to remind me of a point that I alluded to above- the notion that unscrupulous people have been known to take old labels from trashed LP's and affix them to more recent issues. If a Lexington label was attached to an LP during the Liberty era legitimately during the manufacturing process, how and why could that be termed a "fake"? I realize that you used quotation marks around "fake", but it would seem to be a poor choice of terms if in fact this occured legitimately. Again, this isn't an outright "challenge" of your post, Peter, I'm just making conversation. The only mismatches I've ever seen myself are the sequential type that you listed, so I've already learned something (the Lex / NY USA mismatch... although that could have been foul play too... ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 Here's another one I have to add to the mix. Art Blakey: At the Jazz corner of the world (stereo) Liberty Records Inc. cover No ear, no DG, thinner Liberty vinyl 47 West 63rd label, both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzhound Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 talk about unusual; a copy of GO on ebay with "ear" but no Van Gelder stamp. pretty wierd...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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