New RVG McCoy Tyner - Tender Moments

[mikeweil]

This may be the one case where I regret selling my early 1970's LP when the first CD issue came out. The new one sounds somewhat better than the first CD, but the high frequencies are inconsistent: After the theme of the first track, at the start of the piano solo it can be heard in the ride cymbal.

Was there any TOCJ issue? How does it compare. Tape defective, or some problem with the recording heads at the session that went unnoticed?

[couw]

just listened to the first track on the TOCJ (1997) and I don't hear anything wrong. What should I be listening for?

[Shrdlu]

The TOCJs ("Blue Note Works") were taken from LP masters in the case of BN albums that came out straight away after being recorded, whereas the RVGs are taken from the session tapes, which are now old. So, generally speaking, sonic flaws that are present on the RVGs are sometimes not found on the TOCJs. This is one reason why the TOCJs are better than any RVG (or other recent issue). Obviously, we can't blame BN U.S. or Rudy for this.

Specific examples of this that I have heard are on Mobley's "Dippin'", and "The Horace Silver Trio". It seems that this new Tyner is another example.

I think the TOCJs should be kept available as the definitive BN CD reissues.

[mikeweil]

As I said: does the sound of the ride cymbal change, like a phasing effect, especially when the piano solo starts on the first track.

The room ambience sounds strange to these ears, too. Like the sound in the high frequency range oscillates somewhat.

[mikeweil]

The TOCJs ("Blue Note Works") were taken from LP masters in the case of BN albums that came out straight away after being recorded, whereas the RVGs are taken from the session tapes, which are now old. So, generally speaking, sonic flaws that are present on the RVGs are sometimes not found on the TOCJs. This is one reason why the TOCJs are better than any RVG (or other recent issue). Obviously, we can't blame BN U.S. or Rudy for this.

I thought it could be something like that. Thanks for the info. But tape ageing alone cannot be the reason: both categories of tape you mention should be about the same age. Must have something to do with tape transfer.

[couw]

okay, listened again. at 1:01 there is a slight drop in the overall volume (piano and cymbals most notably). sounds like one of RVG's recording tricks to me. There's more of those, for example when the trumpet solo starts at 2:40, the volume of the piano and also that of the cymbals is slightly reduced again, with the latter slowly building back up again. Sounds okay to me, not truly annoying really.

[Shrdlu]

But tape ageing alone cannot be the reason: both categories of tape you mention should be about the same age.

Whatever the source of the TOCJs was, it was different from the source for the RVGs (namely the actual session reels). The TOCJ sources are at least one generation further along than the sources for the RVGs, but the point is that the TOCJs have the advantage of having been made before the RVGs, which means there had been less time for any tapes to deteriorate when the TOCJs were produced. And damage could occur to the session reels without the sources used by Toshiba being damaged. I assume that Toshiba made the TOCJs from masters (of whatever kind) that they have had since the days when they first issued BN LPs in Japan.

I suspect that the TOCJs may even have been dubbed from vinyl, and not just in the well-known case of "Sweet Honey Bee", with its crackles. I don't think that anyone has ever found out just what went on. The name of the TOCJ engineer was posted on the BN bulletin board, after a long search.

[montg]

I didn't like the sound on this at all--the first RVG I have purchased where I was disappointed. The bass seems terribly underrecorded to me. Generally, I find a lot of variation from session to session in the RVG studio regarding the prominence and clarity of the bass, but this particular issue was the worst I've heard. Couple that with tape deterioration or some other flaw in the source, and you've got, in my opinion, real problems (aurally--the usual disclaimers about the music being otherwise great apply).

If we ever get a Mosaic Tyner box, perhaps Malcolm Addey will work some magic.

[sidewinder]

I've just had a few listens to track 1 on my LP copy - a 1977 blue label UK pressing of the Liberty/United Artists period. Although the recording level sounds a bit suppressed to my ears (which seems very common to RVG recordings in the Liberty era) there is no noticeable cymbal distortion or tweaking of levels, at least on this copy.

If there has been some deterioration of master tape, sounds as though it could be a post-1977 issue.

Edited September 26, 2004 by sidewinder

[Shrdlu]

This re-raises the question of how much longer those master tapes will last. It seems that the record companies had better transfer what they still have to another medium while they can. The story about the Arthur Lyman tape sticks in my mind: they went to reissue the session, and one of the tape boxes was found to contain a tangle of clear plastic and a pile of iron oxide dust.

[WD45]

This re-raises the question of how much longer those master tapes will last. It seems that the record companies had better transfer what they still have to another medium while they can. The story about the Arthur Lyman tape sticks in my mind: they went to reissue the session, and one of the tape boxes was found to contain a tangle of clear plastic and a pile of iron oxide dust.

What a horrifying prospect! Too bad the thing holding up reissues is mega-conglomerate label bean counters. They have a duty to preserve this material.