Grant and Wes

[jazzbo]

That quote DOES look oddly familiar. . . . I'll remember it soon enough I guess!

I just wanted to make the point that I felt both had amounts of soul and technique, that neither was without a good dollop of each!

Edited January 5, 2005 by jazzbo

[Dave James]

I'm not a guitar player, but the question of style I think goes deeper than just, as several have suggested, playing with "soul". The technique each of these two incredibly gifted players employed was as different as night and day, two entirely distinctive approaches to the same instrument. Wes' signature sound was the full octave chord. Also, becuase he eschewed the use of a plectrum, even his picking sounded markedly different and unique. Everything very lush and very harmonic. Green, on the other hand, was strictly a single note picker. I've listened to just about everything pre-funk Green ever recorded and he just doesn't use chords. So, I'm thinking that the difference in the accessibility of their sounds as well as the exposure Wes got in his later year's when Verve "strung up" his recordings made all the difference in terms of general acceptance and noteriety. I can actually recall seeing Wes on a network TV show playing "Bumpin". In you wildest dreams, can your ever imagine Grant Green on network TV in the '60's?

Up over and out.

Edited January 5, 2005 by Dave James

[Jim R]

These Wes / Grant threads (there have been a few of them over the years on various boards) always strikes me as a little odd.  Why do folks always compare these two?

This was clearly not my intent although it may seem that way but why one seems to get more recognition than the other.

Sorry Brad, I hadn't meant to lump that all on you. Long-time guitar fanatic that I am, it's just something that I've noticed over the years. I distinctly remember a thread like this at the BNBB, and I'm pretty sure there was one at JCS (and possibly elsewhere). I just think it's kind of weird... but I know Grant has skyrocketed in popularity in recent years, so I suppose I understand why it's happening.

I love Grant too (really), but there are others (some of them greats) who may get overlooked now and in the future due to all of Grant's pub, IMO. It's interesting, but Grant actually seems to be very appealing to a LOT of folks who really aren't very keen on guitarists in general (it's the BN connection, of course). Burrell made a lot of BN recordings too, but he's recorded for so many other labels in his 50+-year career that he's not as strongly associated with BN as Grant.

Some seem to see Wes and Grant as THE "parallel figures" in jazz guitar in the 60's, as if they (alone) were THE major guitarists at the time. I guess that's what irks me.

[Jim R]

Wes' signature sound was the full octave chord.

Octaves, yes, and impossible chord solos (not to mention the single line solos).

Also, becuase he eschewed the use of a plectrum, even his picking sounded markedly different and unique.  Everything very lush and very harmonic.  Green, on the other hand, was strictly a single note picker.  I've listened to just about everything pre-funk Green ever recorded and he just doesn't use chords.  So, I'm thinking that the difference in the accessibility of their sounds as well as the exposure Wes got in his later year's when Verve "strung up" his recordings made all the difference in terms of general acceptance and noteriety.

I'm not sure I follow you there...

As I said above, Wes' more commercial recordings made him better known... but among people with less of a clue about jazz.

[garthsj]

O.K.! O.K! Now I know that I am going to get flamed here, but I would like to confess that I never really "understood" GG's great popularity. I have most of his BN albums, because I am a Blue Note completist of sorts up to the late 60s, but these are not my favorite guitar albums. I guess I grew up with Barney Kessel, Herb Ellis, Kenny Burrell, Howard Roberts (very underrated), Tal Farlow, Jimmy Raney, Billy Bauer, Johnny Smith, and Jim Hall as my list of favorites in the late 50s and 60s. GG seemed rather tame to me, and not being a devotee of funk or soul, his music, while pleasant rhythmically, was not the kind of thing I would put on the turntable to actually "listen" to for improvisational inspiration. Now he has become a jazz icon ... and I am still forced to wonder why?

.... and if you think that this makes me a Philistine, don't ask me to reveal what I really feel about Wayne Shorter ....

Garth.

P.S. BTW, does anyone enjoy the Charlie Christian Columbia box as much as I do? Now there is music to snap you out of a sour mood!

Edited January 6, 2005 by garthsj

[Sundog]

I would say that Wes has so much more technique, and Grant has so much more soul. . . .

I would respectively have to disagree with this statement. As technically advanced as Wes was, I never for one minute, ever get the feeling that he was showing off, or playing a lick just to get it on the record, or just going through some musical exercise. To my ears everything he ever did was in service of the music. If that ain't soul I don't know what is.

I don't have the same impression when I listen to Grant. At his best he was one hell of a swinging, bopper, who could put a nice "soulful" bluesy turn on anything at anytime. Grant played patterns, licks, he cut and pasted, and recycled/rearranged melodies into quite interesting pieces. Wes interpreted melodies wholly with his unique physical gifts.

My two cents.

[JSngry]

Just as Wes was hitting the charts with his A&M albums, Grant was releasing albums such as 'Visions' and 'Live At The Lighthouse' which seemed to sink without trace at the time,,,

That would depend on what neighborhood you were in at the time...

Which I think sums up the entire name-recognition thing. Wes' Verve & A&M albums were aimed at (and reached) the hipper portions of the "mainstream" (i.e. - white) audience in a way that Grant's albums ("regular" & "commercial") never attemped to or achieved.

Residual cultural memory, that's all it is.

As for the relative merits of each, apples and oranges, oild and vinegar, whatever, you got a salad. Bon apetit!

[7/4]

Where did Hendrix get those unison octave riffs?

[JSngry]

Exactly. Wes permeated "Pop Culture" by design (by whose design is open for debate) in a way that Grant never even attempted to.

Another way to look at it - Wes had a bigass family to feed, Grant had a bigass habit to feed. Careers proceeded accordingly.

[jazzbo]

Well, I'll disrespectfully disagree with that too SD, I often feel as if Wes is reaching into a trick bag, especially on ballads, and I don't as often feel that way about Grant, though yes he did cut and paste notes and riffs etc. . . . Again I'm not saying Wes is all technique, no soul, but technnique is a larger part of his whole musical identity, and something I think he loved, and gave structure to his expression,and being "soulful" in the sense of emotional expressiveness I see as a large part of Grant's musical character.

There is something BEYOND the Blue Note connection that makes Grant a guitar player that people that don't always get excited about guitar players in the jazz world get excited about. I'm not entirely sure of why, but for me it's got a lot to do with the ways he is different from many other jazz players. And in my own experience playing music I got so irritated with busy "verbose" guitarists; Grant is like a fresh breath of air in that way, and I love the way that he set up grooves with repetitive riffs and building phrases, which is firmly in the tradition of soul guitarists of all sorts of styles . . . . It's no contest for me: his playing speaks to me in a satisfying clear voice. I have similar tastes in pianist such as Tom Jobim to Oscar Peterson, or Wynton Kelly to Art Tatum. I can think all four are masterful musicians, but reach for one over the ohter many many times.

Edited January 6, 2005 by jazzbo

[chris olivarez]

I prefer Grant Green over by Wes but not by much. I think they both bring a lot to the table. You can't really fault Wes for the pop albums because as it was pointed out he did have a family to feed and for all we know he might have enjoyed making them. I thought both Green and Wes were outstanding with B3 players-Wes with Jimmy Smith and Grant with John Patton and Larry Young. Grant Green also turned in a great performance on Search For The New Land. One of these days I would dearly to get the Wes Montgomery Riverside box.

[BruceH]

All I can add is that Grant's recognition among the "jazz aware" segment of the pubic (tiny segment though it may be) has gone way up over the past 10 to 15 years. Back in the late 80's, while Grant was not forgotten his memory was kind of in limbo. Now, in contrast, just how many books are out about him? He's become one of the most admired jazz guitarists of the 60's, if not THE most admired. But this hasn't much seeped into the mainstream of course. One way for THAT to happen would be if a track or two from Idle Moments or Solid, say, was included in the soundtrack of a huge movie blockbuster (of the $400 million domestic variety); then people might get curious about Grant. I'm not holding by breath though.

[Jim Alfredson]

Sundog's post sums it up for me. I love both... I don't even know why we need to compare. That said, when I hear a Wes Montgomery solo, I am usually left speechless... and I'm not a guitarist. Wes was(is) a true genius. His command of the instrument, his harmonic sense, his melodic sense, his rhythmic sense, are almost unbelievable, especially considering he was completely self taught.

When I hear a Grant Green solo, it makes me laugh... in a good way. He plays the same licks and riffs, splices them together in different patterns, but is always funky and fun.

To me, it's like comparing Jimmy Smith and Charles Earland. One redefined the instrument and is a genius. The other doesn't have the same chops, but is still fun to listen to and his records can always be counted on to be funky and make you happy.

The music world wouldn't be the same if either of them didn't live.

[chris olivarez]

Well Put B3-er.

[Brad]

I'm just not seeing this or feeling this about Wes. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm not a guitarist so I'm looking at this at more of a guttural level but Grant just moves me. I like Wes but not in the same way. It's like nice but I tend to reach more for Grant. I agree with b3-er but in reverse. I also think that Grant was playing this more like Bird on the guitar. I'm paraphrasing but I had read somewhere that Grant was trying to play the guitar like a horn, that he'd been influenced by Bird in that way. So he was approaching playing the guitar from a different direction.

Edited January 6, 2005 by Brad

[Sundog]

For a lot of years I preferred Grant's playing to most players including Wes for a lot of the same reasons you noted below. The economical lines, the repetition, the genuine blues, R&B, and soul influences. The funny thing is that as I started to explore more jazz that wasn't guitar based, I really began to develop an appreciation/affinity for horn players. Mainly because of their superior ability to play long, uncluttered, simple, beautiful phrases. Given all that you would think that I would tend to become even more inclined to prefer Grant. Well just the opposite happened, I began to hear Wes as more of a horn player. Maybe because of his mellow tone, maybe because of his phrasing, or maybe because of his use of octaves which tend to sustain longer. More likely it's a combination of all these things and more which tend to give me that impression. Anyway since then I've tended to hear Wes' music differently. Phrases that may seem cluttered to some, to me now sound like Wes playing multiple horn parts at once. I'm not really sure I can explain it any better than that.

I suspect over time I will come to appreciate new and different things about Grant's playing. It's not like I've stopped listening to his music. However Melvin Sparks has kind of supplanted Grant as of late when I need a "groove fix". He's my "go to" guy for the time being.

Two more cents.

[Leeway]

For me, Grant Green, both for his own individual playing, and for the various ensembles in which he played.

[take5]

Sundog, I also thought of he horn thing when I saw this thread, albeit with a different conclusion (I'm not a musician, though).

Sometimes when I listen to Grant, I can imagine the same thing being played on a tenor saxophone, and it sounds like a Hank Mobley solo. Maybe I think this way because they share a lot of recording dates, but I just get that feeling from the phrasing and the way the melody lines progress.

Wes, on the other hand, plays guitar. What he is saying can only be said on that instrument.

[Alon Marcus]

BTW - almost every guitarist I met or read an interview about said the cliche that he wants to sound like a horn player. I know that both Wes and Grant wanted to sound like horn players.

Is it the right approach?

[Alon Marcus]

And here is Wes' blindfold test, he speaks there about GG and George Benson and some more interesting stuff.

Wes Montgomery Blindfold Test

An Exclusive Online Extra

06/29/1967

GEORGE BENSON. "Benny's Back" (from The George Benson Cookbook, Columbia). Bennie Green, trombone; Lonnie Smith, organ; Benson, guitar, composer; no bass listed.

It has a fresh sound. The organ seems like it's in the background -- doesn't seem like it's up front with the other instruments. Seems like it lost a little bit of fire at the end. But naturally, the guitar solo was out of sight! It sounded like George Benson. I think it rates three stars, anyway.

Sounded like Al Grey on trombone, but I'm not sure. The group sounded like it was baritone, organ, trombone, guitar, electric bass, and drums. You know, I think the electric bass is getting more popular; it's moving out of rock 'n' roll into jazz.

I liked the line very much -- it sounded fresh, excited. Sounded like Georgie Benson's line -- probably his tune.

ROLAND KIRK. "Making Love Afterhours" (from Here Comes The Whistleman/, Atlantic). Kirk, flute, tenor saxophone, manzello, and strich.

Wow! First, it sounded like Roland Kirk and his group. I don't know the personnel.

It's a funny thing about Roland Kirk -- if you had two other men, with two horns identical like he's playing, and let the two men play the same parts he's playing, and let him play the two horns, it's still a different sound. It's a different approach even with the horns. It's amazing.

Anyway, I see he's got him one to go for the pop market. It's good, very good, but I think if you're speaking of jazz, you have to rate it as such, and it's not that jazzy. So therefore, I'll have to mark him down for three stars. It's a good track, but it appeals to the current market, which I'll give him credit for doing. He's still getting into it, even in that direction. So I think it deserves three.

JOE PASS. "Sometime Ago" (from Simplicity, World Pacific). Pass, guitar; S. Mihanovich, composer.

I don't know who that was, but it was beautiful. In fact, I couldn't concentrate on who it might be because of listening to it! It's beautiful. I like all of it -- I like the lines, I like the phrases, the guitar player has beautiful tone, he phrases good, and everybody's sort of, like, together.

It's really together; I'd give that four stars, right away.

GRANT GREEN. "Brazil" (from The Latin Bit, Blue Note). Green, guitar; Johnnie Acea, piano.

Of course, from the style, right away I can tell it was Grant Green. The piano player sounded like, had a taste of, Horace Parlan -- I'm not sure. I don't know the other fellows.

The fire the tune started out with -- I don't think the background came up to it. It was lacking fire in the middle section -- I mean, to compete with Grant. Other than that, they picked a nice tune, nice rhythm for it, so I would give it three stars.

STANLEY TURRENTINE. "A Taste of Honey" (from Jay Ride, Blue Note). Turrentine, tenor saxophone; Kenny Burrell, guitar; Oliver Nelson, arranger, conductor.

Sounded like Stanley Turrentine with an Oliver Nelson arrangement to me -- which is the current thing that's happening now, begun to be the bag: big band and soloist. And for that, I think it's a good arrangement. Nice direction, nice rhythm, exciting.

It's on the blues side, though. For that, I'd take Joe Henderson. I dig his kind of bag, because it's in the more jazz-er bag. Stanley's in the sort of more blues-er type bag. Which you can understand -- it's selling records.

I have to give them three stars for effort. I didn't see anything wrong with the band. Still sounded like Oliver Nelson.

GABOR SZABO. "Walk on By" (from Gypsy '66, Impulse). Szabo, guitars.

That's Gabor Gabor...Gabor Gabo...Gabor Szabo -- which one is it? I can tell right away. He's got a unique style. It's different. Of course, I didn't think that particular number was too exciting. I've heard him a lot more exciting. The rhythm section didn't have enough bottom in it, and it seemed like there was drive missing.

For the soloist, Gabor, I would give him three stars, or maybe 3 1/2, but I would put down two for this particular side. The tune? Yeah! "Walk on By."

HOWARD ROBERTS. "Cute" (from Something's Cookin', Capitol). Roberts, guitar, arranger; Jack Marshall, co-arranger.

I think that was Howard Roberts on guitar. Very good arrangement. I don't know who the arranger was, but it sounded good -- just wasn't long enough. The arrangement has a point of building up, like it's going to stretch out, but it doesn't.

That was a nice cut, very nice cut. I think it deserves four stars.

How could I tell it was Howard Roberts? By the runs he makes. He makes a lot of clean runs. Not only because they're clean, but they have a little different texture. And he sort of mixes it up: He'll play a subtle line, then the next line will be a double line, come back to subtle line, then he'll mix the chords next. It's a nice pattern.

LF: Can you think of any albums you'd give five stars to?

WM: Guitar records? Or any records at all? Well, I've heard a couple of things, but I don't know what the names of the albums are or the artists on them. That's pretty weird -- can't think of any five-star records!

Oh, this new thing by Miles, Miles Smiles? Now that's a beautiful thing. He's beginning to change his things all the time, but he hasn't gone all out, and Wayne Shorter's playing a little different. It's nice.

Joe Henderson's got a thing I think would be five stars too. I think it's Mode for Joe -- he and McCoy Tyner, Elvin Jones, and Richard Davis.

[Sundog]

Sundog, I also thought of he horn thing when I saw this thread, albeit with a different conclusion (I'm not a musician, though).

Sometimes when I listen to Grant, I can imagine the same thing being played on a tenor saxophone, and it sounds like a Hank Mobley solo.  Maybe I think this way because they share a lot of recording dates, but I just get that feeling from the phrasing and the way the melody lines progress.

Wes, on the other hand, plays guitar.  What he is saying can only be said on that instrument.

That's cool. I definitely understand where your coming from and don't disagree. I guess it's just the pureness of Wes' tone that tends to remind me of horn players. Especially when he plays octaves and allows the notes to sustain over a number of bars. The way they decay sounds incredible to me. Almost horn-like.

A lot of people characterize Wes' guitar playing as pianistic in nature. I tend to believe that he heard a whole band in his head as he played a tune. Bass, piano, drums, and horns. It all seemed to be floating around up there and he used his guitar as a vehicle to get all those sounds out.

One thing is for sure, both Grant and Wes were originals.

[marcello]

Both are wonderful, of course but Wes was a very real innovator and influence amoung musicians, both during his life and after. Not just gutarists, either.

Grant Green REALLY PLAYED THE BLUES! His influence has come after he passed away. As Mike said, beacause of the reissues, his impact and influence was delayed. There is a wonderful solo he plays on 'It Ain't Necesarily So", with a driving Art Blakey on drums, that is so deep and funky it makes you scream!

1962.1.13

Grant Green guitar

Sonny Clark piano

Sam Jones bass

Art Blakey drums

II.1. Airegin [alt.take] (Sonny Rollins) 7:34

II.2. Airegin (Sonny Rollins) 7:32

II.3. Nancy (Silvers-Van Heusen) 6:20

II.4. I Concentrate On You (Cole Porter) 5:40

II.5. The Things We Did Last Summer (Styne-Cahn) 5:54

II.6. The Song Is You (Kern-Hammerstein) 7:44

II.7. It Ain't Necessarily So (Gershwin) 10:20

Blue Note LT-1032 - GRANT GREEN - Nigeria [2,4-7]

All other selections are previously unissued. [1,3]

[Sundog]

BTW - almost every guitarist I met or read an interview about said the cliche that he wants to sound like a horn player. I know that both Wes and Grant wanted to sound like horn players.

Is it the right approach?

It's certainly a time honored approach that many guitarists undertake. Ultimately I really think it's more about having a more human voice like quality. Horn players tend to be emulated because they share a lot of the same characteristics as a human voice.

On the other side of the coin guitar players can do some pretty unique things on their instrument. Just the other day I heard Barney Kessel on the radio playing "On A Clear Day". He was playing the tune in the key of E (definitely a guitar key) and during the intro he was droning the low E in a funky syncopated manner creating this amazing forward motion as he alternated between Emaj7 amd Emaj6 chords. The whole thing was so cool and unique to the guitar.

[Jim R]

O.K.! O.K! Now I know that I am going to get flamed here, but I would like to confess that I never really "understood" GG's great popularity. I have most of his BN albums, because I am a Blue Note completist of sorts up to the late 60s, but these are not my favorite guitar albums. I guess I grew up with Barney Kessel, Herb Ellis, Kenny Burrell, Howard Roberts (very underrated), Tal Farlow, Jimmy Raney, Billy Bauer, Johnny Smith, and Jim Hall as my list of favorites in the late 50s and 60s. GG seemed rather tame to me, and not being a devotee of funk or soul, his music, while pleasant rhythmically, was not the kind of thing I would put on the turntable to actually "listen" to for improvisational inspiration. Now he has become a jazz icon ... and I am still forced to wonder why?

[Jim Alfredson]

Thanks for posting that Blindfold Test, that was a great read! My favorite quote?

GEORGE BENSON. "Benny's Back" (from The George Benson Cookbook, Columbia). Bennie Green, trombone; Lonnie Smith, organ; Benson, guitar, composer; no bass listed.

It has a fresh sound. The organ seems like it's in the background -- doesn't seem like it's up front with the other instruments. Seems like it lost a little bit of fire at the end. But naturally, the guitar solo was out of sight! It sounded like George Benson. I think it rates three stars, anyway.

Yeah, no kidding. Thanks a lot, John Hammond, for mixing the organ so far in the background you can barely hear it! He hated the organ so on those two Benson records for Columbia with Lonnie Smith, the organ is mixed waaaay back. Those records are great except that you can't hear Lonnie!!