BFT, fast and fake: Kenny Kersey or Thelonius Monk

[mmilovan]

Hi people,

Listening to "Swing to Bop" from Minton's playhouse, May 12, 1941. I would like to know how that solo piano sound to you, my friends - like Monk or Kenny Kersey? To me, I can hear Kenny and his specific aproach, rather than Monk.

How about you?

Edited March 13, 2005 by mmilovan

[mikeweil]

In his Monk discography for Jazz Podium magazine (why the heck didn't I write a date on the photocopy???!) Hans Lukas Lindenmaier listed only two tracks with Monk from that date, Stompin' at the Savoy and Charlie's Choice. Will have to spin this tomorrow for aural evidence.

Edit: Swing to Bop and Charlie's Choice are two names for the same track, I noticed.

Edited March 14, 2005 by mikeweil

[mmilovan]

What is the most interesting, at the very end of recording I can hear some "pling-plong" notes - maybe Monk switched to keyboard at that moment...

[mikeweil]

Those pling plongs sound more like a guitar to these ears.

Bruyninckx lists Kenny Kersey for the two tracks I mentioned in my previous post. But he lists Kersey or Pee Wee Tinney for most tracks, except Up on Teddy's Hill - will have to re-listen more carefully tomorrow - my wife wants to sleep and asked me to turn off the music.

More to come.

[AllenLowe]

are you sure he doesn't mean Al Tinney?

[mikeweil]

He writes Allen "Pee Wee" Tinney, to be exact.

I listened to the Esoteric 548 and Xanadu 107 LPs I have - Stompin' at the Savoy clearly sounds like Monk, display some of his characteristic traits that you can hear on his 1944 Hawkins sideman recordings.

Swing to Bop aka Charlie's Choice OTOH has some typical swing piano lines out of the Teddy Wilson bag that I never heard on any Monk recording, but Kenny Kersey used on the other Minton recordings. This would mean there's an error in the discographies ...

Can't say anything about Up on Teddy's Hill - the piano is barely audible on that track.

[037]

Solo Flight

Go here and scroll down to May 1941

"7"

[mikeweil]

From the site linked in the previous post:

MAY 8, 1941        Thursday

“MINTON’S PLAYHOUSE”

Hotel Cecil    210 West 118th Street

HARLEM      NYC

CHARLIE CHRISTIAN,  RUDY WILLIAMS-as,  DON BYAS-ts,  KERMIT SCOTT-ts,  JOE GUY-tpt,  HOT LIPS PAGE-tpt,

“Tex”-p,  NICK FENTON-b,  KENNY CLARKE-d.

Jam Session                                    STOMPIN’ AT THE SAVOY

riffs behind ts – 24 bars,

•  riffs behind tpt – 32 bars,

*  32 + 32-bar solo;

chord accents behind as – 10 bars,

*  collective improvisation – 5 choruses,

tag – 2 bars.

Who's "Tex"???

MAY 12, 1941        Monday

“MINTON’S PLAYHOUSE”

Hotel Cecil    210 West 118th Street

HARLEM      NYC

CHARLIE CHRISTIAN,  JOE GUY-tpt,  KENNY KERSEY-p,  NICK FENTON-b,  KENNY CLARKE-d.

Jam Session                                    TOPSY    (SWING TO BOP)  (CHARLIE’S CHOICE)  (IN THE HALL OF THE MOUNTAIN KING)

*  27 + 32 + 32 + 32 + 32 + 32 + 2-bar solo;

*  32 + 32 + 32-bar solo

[10]    ESJ-1,  LD 035,  LDE 002

[LP]  1233,  500114,  5233,  6919,  ALB 377,

          CPT-548,  CPTS-5548,  ES-548,  FS-219,

          FS-259,  HR-101-EV,  JA 5122,  PRE 640,

          S-53976,  SL-5001-EV;  SOC 996,  SOC 1036,

          STL-J12,  VG 405,  VRM 36025,  VRMS 325,

          YS-7071-EV

[CD]  008,  0156,  17 032,  30CY-1436,  373,  50354,

          55001,  600135,  87998,  Black Bird,  CD 11,

          CM 15001,  CPCD 8194-2,  FA 218,  JZCD-5005,

          MUS-55001,  NI-4020,  OJCCD-1932-2,  P1134,

          PLATCD 509,  PROPERBOX 9,  TKCZ-36013,

          TKCZ-79502,  TPZ 1028,  UAE 3066,  VG 651

Incomplete  (Vox 78-rpm rendition w/ added crowd noise):

          [78]  VSP 302

          [CD]  DRCD11122,  DRCD11177,  EMCD 21,

                    FDM 36715-2,  JSP909,  MJCD 75,  R2CD 8004

Incomplete  (second CC solo omitted – fades out after first CC solo):

          [LP]  LPJT 13

          [CD]  4017,  4032,  MC 027

Jam Session                                    STOMPIN’ AT THE SAVOY

theme w/ tpt – 12 bars, 8 bars  (tpt brk);

*  32 + 32 + 32-bar solo;

*  32 + 32 + 32-bar solo,

chord accents behind tpt – 19 bars,

tag w/ tpt – 4 bars.

[78]    VSP 302

[10]    ESJ-1,  LD 035,  LDE 002

[LP]  1233,  500114,  5233,  6919,  ALB 377,

          CPT-548,  CPTS-5548,  ES-548,  FS-219,

          FS-259,  HR-101-EV,  JA 5122,  PRE 640,

          SL-5001-EV;  SOC 996,  SOC 1036,  UPF-181,

          VG 405,  VRM 36025,  VRMS 325,  YS-7071-EV

[CD]  008,  3007-2,  30CY-1436,  55001, 600135,  87998,

          DRCD11122,  DRCD11177,  DRCD11197,

          EMCD 21,  FA 218,  FDM 36715-2,

          JSP909,  JZCD-5005,  MJCD 75,  MUS-55001,

          NI-4020,  OJCCD-1932-2,  PLATCD 509,

          R2CD 8004,  TKCZ-36013,  TKCZ-79502,

          TPZ 1028,  VG 651

So, no Monk here.

[AllenLowe]

guys - I just listened to Swing to Bop and it's definitely Monk - especially near the beginnning of the solo, you hear phrases that he would use for another 30 years - no question about it - remember, also, that Mary Lou Williams described his playing during this time as having a Teddy Wilson influence - though it still has Monk's characteristic short phraseology; very unlike Kersey -

Edited March 15, 2005 by AllenLowe

[brownie]

From the site linked in the previous post:

MAY 8, 1941         Thursday

“MINTON’S PLAYHOUSE”

Hotel Cecil     210 West 118th Street

HARLEM      NYC

CHARLIE CHRISTIAN,  RUDY WILLIAMS-as,  DON BYAS-ts,  KERMIT SCOTT-ts,  JOE GUY-tpt,  HOT LIPS PAGE-tpt,

“Tex”-p,  NICK FENTON-b,  KENNY CLARKE-d.

Jam Session                                     STOMPIN’ AT THE SAVOY

riffs behind ts – 24 bars,

•   riffs behind tpt – 32 bars,

*  32 + 32-bar solo;

chord accents behind as – 10 bars,

*  collective improvisation – 5 choruses,

tag – 2 bars.

Who's "Tex"???

Yes, who's 'Tex'?

The liner notes to vol. 9 of the Charlie Christian series of the Masters of Jazz label where this track was first issued do not shed any light on this musician who does not solo and is barely heard comping during the 10:21 jam.

[mmilovan]

guys - I just listened to Swing to Bop and it's definitely Monk - especially near the beginnning of the solo, you hear phrases that he would use for another 30 years - no question about it - remember, also, that Mary Lou Williams described his playing during this time as having a Teddy Wilson influence - though it still has Monk's characteristic short phraseology; very unlike Kersey -

Now, this is interesting, because, surely there is link to Wilson (whom Monk admired, Wilson and Monk itself, as he said in one interview) and I can hear Kersey as well, and characteristic Monk notes at the end of recording, that makes whole thing more complex to guess... The only one I can't hear in this solo is Tinney comparing it to famous Bird's paper disc record from Minton's...

Edited March 15, 2005 by mmilovan

[AllenLowe]

Tinney, by the way (who died a few years ago) is a fascinating figure - an early participant who never got a lot of credit; he taught at SUNY Buffalo for many years, and somewhere there's an excellent Cadence interview with him that's worth seeking out -

Edited March 15, 2005 by AllenLowe

[AllenLowe]

the most intersting things of Monk in transition were issued on the old Onyx label on LP - from Harlem spots, the early 1940s - on tunes like Nice Work and Body and Soul, accompanying other musicians - on these you can really hear his style (almost) taking over - I'll try to pull the Lps later and give citations -

[John L]

Monk already sounded somewhat like himself on the Minton's recordings.

I will have to go back and listen again. But based on Monk's sound on the Minton's recordings where there is not doubt that he is playing, I had thought that none of the recordings with Charlie Christian sounded (to my ears) like Monk was on piano.

[Guest wankyjazz]

Jordan Rudess >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>thelonius monk