Cleaning Up 78s

[Dan Gould]

As mentioned in this thread, I have landed a truly rare test pressing of a demo recording by the Four Sounds, the earlier incarnation of what would become the Blue Note recording group, the Three Sounds.

As mentioned in the ebay listing,

THE RECORD IS FAIRLY DIRTY AND I AM NOT SURE HOW IT WILL PLAY. THERE ARE NO CHIPS, CRACKS OR FLAWS OF ANY KIND.

so I know I am going to have to do something to get the maximum fidelity from this, and I ask for any advice people may have. I have no super handy-dandy record cleaning machine, only one of those Discwasher thingies - the wood block with the felt side. I am afraid that while this does ok to get stray bits of hair and frizzies off, it is more likely to grind any dirt into the grooves and make things worse.

Right now, I have two options:

Contact a local record dealer, see if his record cleaner can handle it;

Follow the advice of my wife, who has training as an audio engineer, who suggests the following:

Warm water

A soft towel

gentle rubbing in the direction of the grooves

Does anyone have any objections to that approach or better alternatives?

Thanks!

[AllenLowe]

dan- your wife is right - if you can get a good transfer, send me a CDR and I'll put it through CEDAR, if you like - or, if you're not too nervous, send me the 78 and I can transfer it (I have a variety of styli) - let me know - also, I have the VPI and can clean it -

Edited March 18, 2005 by AllenLowe

[Dan Gould]

Allen, I may take you up on that! I'll send you an email after I get the 78 next week and I see what I can do. I definitely want to get the best possible transfer I can, and it sounds like you've got the equipment to work on it. Thanks!

[AllenLowe]

sounds good -

[Jim R]

I'm no expert, and never even owned any kind of record cleaning machine, but first let me state what may be obvious- NO ALCOHOL on a 78. Warm water, yes, and I would baby that thing... rub gently at first, and with the grooves.

Also, I hope the seller knows how to pack well (really well)...

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Dan, I just got off the phone with Michael Cuscuna and he's going to send me the name of a guy they use and highly recommend. He apparently does this for a living and doesn't charge an arm & a leg. I'll pm it to you.

Kevin

[Kevin Bresnahan]

BTW, I should add that I second the post about packaging!! Contact the seller and offer to pay extra $$ for a double boxed shipment. These 78s break when you look at them the wrong way. It would be criminal if this arrived in pieces.

Kevin

Edited March 18, 2005 by Kevin Bresnahan

[Dan Gould]

BTW, I should add that I second the post about packaging!! Contact the seller and offer to pay extra $$ for a double boxed shipment. These 78s break when you look at them the wrong way. It would be criminal if this arrived in pieces.

Kevin

I've already talked to the seller and he promises to do the utmost with the packaging. I don't even want to think of the possibility of it arriving in pieces. I'm going to email again and ask for double boxing, too.

[Dan Gould]

And thanks, Kevin, for talking with Michael about it. Maybe if this yields good sonics, it could go onto the start of a Mosaic Select that Michael's been thinking about. I could certainly get Michael in touch with Janie Harris.

[Rooster_Ties]

Are we witnessing the birth of a new Mosaic right here on this very board???

Edited March 18, 2005 by Rooster_Ties

[Soulstation1]

in simple terms

how does a record cleaner machine system work?

kinda like a car wash?

ss1

Edited March 18, 2005 by Soulstation1

[AllenLowe]

uh...I don't want to appear annoyed, but I think you guys are being a bit rude here - I know the guy Cuscuna uses, Doug Pomeroy, and he is excellent, a friend of mine. I, however, have done mastering work for Sony, Rhino, Rykodisc, Michael Fensteon, NPR, Fresh Air, and many others. I made my living at this for more than a few years -

Edited March 18, 2005 by AllenLowe

[AllenLowe]

Here's a list of credits, companies and individuals for whom I have done mastering:

(if I a sound miffed it is because I AM - but I'll get over it):

Sony Legacy

Rhino Records

Rykodisc

Global Village Music

Venus Records

Enja Records

Ken Burns (Florentine Films)

Stash Records

National Public Radio (Fresh Air)

Michael Feinstein

Jimmy Jones

Billy Crash Craddock

Music and Arts Programs of America

Kaiser Permanente

Brother Where Art Though (the film; one cut mastered appeared in the film)

Edited March 18, 2005 by AllenLowe

[Dan Gould]

uh...I don't want to appear annoyed, but I think you guys are being a bit rude here - I know the guy Cuscuna uses, Doug Pomeroy, and he is excellent, a friend of mine. I, however, have done mastering work for Sony, Rhino, Rykodisc, Michael Fensteon, NPR, Fresh Air, and many others. I made my living at this for more than a few years -

Allen, believe me, I am not putting you on the side in favor of the "pro" (though I honestly did not know how extensive your experience is). Free help is much better than from another guy who i supposedly "reasonable" especially if its using the same equipment with the same expertise!

[AllenLowe]

hey Dan, no sweat - Doug is great - and I will not be insulted if you go to him instead - it's just that I'm good at restoration, love doing it, and have my own studio.

[AllenLowe]

and I'll save you some time: Doug Pomeroy: 718-855-2650 - don't worry, I'm fine, and, as I said, Doug is great, probably the best in the business - just defending my honor -

[Dan Gould]

Actually, Allen, they gave me a different name, Vince Caro. Looks like he lives in the 'burbs of Westchester County, New York-maybe they use him cuz he's closer to Stamford.

[AllenLowe]

Doug did the Bix and the Mildred Bailey - he's in Brooklyn -

[Dr. Rat]

Allen-

Imprssive resume!

While I have you on the line, I wonder if you'd answer a few questions I've had in the back of my mind for a while. (sorry is this seems like I'm quizzing you, but you know some things I don't, and there's only one way to get started on rectifying that!)

As somebody in the busines, who do you think did the best work in 78 remastering and why.

And, has the latest generation in computer technology and automated editing programs made a considerable improvement in how well 78s can sound when remastered. I know the editing programs that get down to my level of pedestrian audio production are WAY better now than they were 5 years ago. How about at the more exaleted level of remastering?

--eric

[Kevin Bresnahan]

uh...I don't want to appear annoyed, but I think you guys are being a bit rude here - I know the guy Cuscuna uses, Doug Pomeroy, and he is excellent, a friend of mine. I, however, have done mastering work for Sony, Rhino, Rykodisc, Michael Fensteon, NPR, Fresh Air, and many others. I made my living at this for more than a few years -

Allen, I was on the phone with Mosaic right after I read Dan's original post. I didn't even get to read your post(s) when I hit the first "Reply" button. No offense was intended.

Kevin

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Allen, I notice you mention CEDAR in your first post here. Obviously, you realize that system has more enemies in the world of audio than it has friends. Many people hate "CEDAR-ized" remasters and won't buy them. I have yet to be able to compare a before & after to give an opinion. Since you mention it, do you think it's a good tool or a necessity for old 78s? Do you use it 100% on these kinds of recordings?

Kevin

[AllenLowe]

thanks, Kevin -

to answer Dr. Rat - the current cheap editing programs are generally ok to good - though I would suggest the better ones like Wavelab (inexpensive but excellent) - for mastering the key things are, IMHO: good converters (nice to have 24 bit with good noise shaping; currently I am using 20 bit, which are fine for older material and pretty damn good for current material); fast enough computer; professional level sound card; a good DAT machine - a good CDR program or a good free-standing machine; a good digital EQ (the last is REAL important) - GOOD MONITORS (I emphasize this because I think most monitors are crap - the best things to use are excellent stereo speakers, again IMHO); with current equipment one can do excellent work, even with 16 bit - as I said, converters are vital -

for restoration of old recordings: I have yet to see a cheap program that can de-crackle or de-click without introducing some degradation of sound - there also exists no de-hisser that will elimiate ALL hiss, but with judicious use there are a few programs that can help a lot.

as for CEDAR - it is a modern miracle, and if used correctly can do incredible work - sure, there are many who have botched things with it - but I'm willing to bet that it is used on many things that you've listened to without knowing. Interesting that this should come up - somebody just sent me that noisy Benny Goodman, which I intend to work on and do an A/B for anyone here who is interested -

still, there are other factors - the most important (other) in my experience is EQ - knowing how to deal with frequencies, working for clarity above and beyond the usual - in my experience this is where many excellent engineers fall short - and amazing things can be done here, especially with good digital eq, which is seamless -

engineers who I like: Pomeroy, Seth Winner, the late John R.T. Davies - I'm sure there are others but I am somewhat out of the business these days -

Edited March 18, 2005 by AllenLowe

[AllenLowe]

I should mention that the EQ and CEDAR need to work together - CEDAR will do some slight dulling of the high frequencies, which can be compensated for with EQ - but if done right, there should be greater audbility with less noise -

Edited March 18, 2005 by AllenLowe

[Dan Gould]

but if done right, there should be greater audbility with less noise -

All I'm hoping for is audibility!

BTW, I got the seller in time - he's agreed to double-box. I'm feelin' better that this can make the journey intact.

[AllenLowe]

good way to pack - between two shirt cardboards, surrounded by bubble wrap, and in a box that's not too small -