J Larsen Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 I actually relate to what Mny has been saying and I'm a little surprised by the reactions he's elicited. My chosen field is extremely competitive, as is Mny's. My colleagues and I are always competing for the same (very finite) funding, access to the same data, the same positions, etc. It was the same story in my brief stint as a financial consultant (which was done SOLEY for the VERY serious need of $$$s.) I'd much rather be a "driver A", but if I am, in fact, a "driver B" I could probably learn to live with it (although I'd fighting like hell to get at least one win). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mnytime Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 I actually relate to what Mny has been saying and I'm a little surprised by the reactions he's elicited. My chosen field is extremely competitive, as is Mny's. My colleagues and I are always competing for the same (very finite) funding, access to the same data, the same positions, etc. It was the same story in my brief stint as a financial consultant (which was done SOLEY for the VERY serious need of $$$s.) I'd much rather be a "driver A", but if I am, in fact, a "driver B" I could probably learn to live with it (although I'd fighting like hell to get at least one win). It's like being back in elementary or high school and having to deal with the insecure and jealous kids again. I seem to be bringing out whatever issues they apparently have never gotten over from those years. Two words for them, Group Therapy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 It's like being back in elementary or high school and having to deal with the insecure and jealous kids again. I seem to be bringing out whatever issues they apparently have never gotten over from those years. Looks like there's that Mny ego again, only its anything but mini. I started pulling quotes from Mny's posts here, I didn't even get back to his "piledriving" his brother when the score was 98-0. But let's consider these: Posted by Mnytime: Yes from a fans point of view those blowouts are boring but from the athletes point of view on the winning team that?s the ideal really. A win is a win of course but you want to dominate the other team physically and mentally. You want that other team to know they where beat. No excuses or luck involved. Posted by Mnytime: It's the same competitive nature or desire that is in athletes and every other person that actually gets anywhere in life. Posted by Mnytime: Life is to short to sleepwalk through life as many in this world are satisfied in doing. To many people are satisfied with getting by without a challange or acomplishing anything in life. That doesn't fit my personality and never will. Posted by Mnytime: Life is one big competition and that includes musicians and music. Oh some might not admit it or talk about it but musicians are must as competitive as any athlete for example. Posted by Mnytime: There is a reason that people that are generally successful in sports are successful in normal life. Posted by Mnytime: You have to think of everything your doing in terms of a War. Oh your not going to kill anyone but it's life and death in it's own way. You say you won't be ranting and raving on the sidelines, you don't even care if your kids want to play sports. Fine. But I don't believe it for a second if your kids show no drive, no interest in succeeding that you will smile and pat them on the back. The quotes above hardly reflect a personality that will take a "C" report card or being on the wrong end of a 20-0 blowout with a "well, as long as you tried, that's all that matters, son." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mnytime Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 Jealousy and insecurities really bring out the worst in people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Larsen Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 But I don't believe it for a second if your kids show no drive, no interest in succeeding that you will smile and pat them on the back. If your kids show no drive, you really should show concern. Simply smiling and patting them on the back would be poor parenting, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mnytime Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 But I don't believe it for a second if your kids show no drive, no interest in succeeding that you will smile and pat them on the back. If your kids show no drive, you really should show concern. Simply smiling and patting them on the back would be poor parenting, IMO. You better watch out your going to be accused of being a future child abuser now as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Dye Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 (edited) What's with all the hate directed at Mnytime??? He is just expressing his opinion here. When he disagrees with someone else, I don't see him resorting to any personal attacks. Mny, I really enjoy the personal stories that you share here and have shared elsewhere. Please don't let some moronic comments change what you post online. I don't see what's wrong with any of the comments of yours that Dan quoted above. ???!!!??? To be honest, I wish my parents had pushed me harder when I was a kid. I could have used some more discipline, especially when I was in my teens. Add me along with J Larsen to that potential abuser list. LOL Edited June 21, 2003 by Jim Dye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 Jealousy and insecurities really bring out the worst in people. What would I possibly have to be jealous or insecure about? Your 1600 on the SAT? Your medical license? Those aren't my yardsticks, pal. ****************** Calling everything "life and death" is a healthy attitude for you or your kids? Making sure the other team "knows" it was beaten, "physically and mentally" is a healthy attitude to have or instill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted June 21, 2003 Report Share Posted June 21, 2003 What's with all the hate directed at Mnytime??? He is just expressing his opinion here. When he disagrees with someone else, I don't see him resorting to any personal attacks. Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mnytime Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 (edited) Jealousy and insecurities really bring out the worst in people. What would I possibly have to be jealous or insecure about? Your 1600 on the SAT? Your medical license? Those aren't my yardsticks, pal. ****************** Calling everything "life and death" is a healthy attitude for you or your kids? Making sure the other team "knows" it was beaten, "physically and mentally" is a healthy attitude to have or instill? Does anyone else find it funny how Dan seems to avoid everyone else that has agreed with me but has fixated on me as if no one else agreed with me in this thread? No mention of the 3-4 others who have agreed with me as being future child abusers. Only I am "privileged" to receive his personal attacks. What a classic case he is. By the way, no where did I say everything is life and death. Edited June 22, 2003 by Mnytime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 Jealousy and insecurities really bring out the worst in people. What would I possibly have to be jealous or insecure about? Your 1600 on the SAT? Your medical license? Those aren't my yardsticks, pal. ****************** Calling everything "life and death" is a healthy attitude for you or your kids? Making sure the other team "knows" it was beaten, "physically and mentally" is a healthy attitude to have or instill? Does anyone else find it funny how Dan seems to avoid everyone else that has agreed with me but has fixated on me as if no one else agreed with me in this thread? No mention of the 3-4 others who have agreed with me as being future child abusers. Only I am "privileged" to receive his personal attacks. What a classic case he is. By the way, no where did I say everything is life and death. First of all, it ought to be pretty damn obvious when I separate a comment directed at you with a line of *************** and then respond specifically to the statements of J Larsen and Jim Dye (no, I didn't actually name them) that I am not directing everything at you. Again, I think that's your bountiful ego speaking. Everything is about you. ********************************** As for your denial of your own words: You are contemptible. You know damn well what you wrote and what I quoted. Just because you have gone back and edited your posts doesn't mean you didn't say what you said. You're pathetic. Once again, here are your precise words: Posted by Mnytime: You have to think of everything your doing in terms of a War. Oh your not going to kill anyone but it's life and death in it's own way. If that does not equate to "everything is life and death" what does it mean? And if you are saying that I imagined this quote than I must be pretty damn good to be smart enough to repeat your ever-present error of mistaking the contraction of "you are" with "your". And speaking of ongoing mistakes, for being in this country so long, you might have figured out by now that the past tense of the verb to be is "were"; "where" is a location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mnytime Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 (edited) Get help already! You’re now resorting to lying. I have not gone back and edited out anything from this thread. There are date stamps on the bottom of the posts. You’re taking the quote out of context. I was speaking in terms of Athletics. And as is usual with you, your hostility is showing. You can't seem to get involved in a conversation with someone that doesn't agree with you without eventually getting hostile with them. If anyone’s children need to worry it is yours. And finally to prove just how childish your posts have become you're resorting to spelling and grammar comments. Edited June 22, 2003 by Mnytime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 22, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 Wow... This thread has really gone off on some tangents, eh? It's gone off-track with greater regularity than NYC bettors... Let me say it again - the real intent of the hypothetical question that started http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php...t=ST&f=8&t=1826 was not to compare music to sports or anything like that, although the detour into things quantum was really cool. The purpose was bring u[ the matter of appreciating unique accomplishments that fell outside the parameters of readily recognized "greatness". It's my opinion that out-of-hand dismissal of such accomplishments, relegating them to the category of out and out failure is inaccurate and myopic, and perhaps is indicative of a worldview that I would consider "imbalanced". But in my attempt to introduce an idea into discussion in such a backhanded fashion, if that idea never really gets established as the central topic, that's the fault of the presentation, so hey - my bad. I guess that using a sports analogy threw a lot of people off, maybe because music, the kind of music most of us like anyway, and sports have assumed significantly different roles in society in terms of things like image, attention, media priority, etc. But those are all "after the fact" realities that society has superimposed on the core activities themselves, 3rd party attempts to define and prioritize first-person activities, and I've got a hunch that quite a few athletes are as skeptical about the general public REALLY understanding what their whole trip is about as a lot of musicians do. But that's just a hunch. In truth, I don't see all that much difference in purely human terms between athletic and musical endeavors, at least not as it pertains to things like training, maintaining focus while performing, staying on task in the face of external distraction, etc. I think that's why sports of some sort has always played a role in pretty much all societies. Music, on the other hand, is in many cultures a "folk" tradition, not something to be approached with the intent of extending personal and cultural boundaries. There's a latent (or not so latent...) built-in cultural conflict between music and sports in this regard - sport has ALWAYS been used as a tool of personal betterment, whereas music has very often been used as a collective tool of general cultural cohesion, through either recreational or ritualistic application. But I choose to look beyond all that baggage and break it down to the individual because in the end, without the individual, nothing gets done (and in a delicious act of cosmic ironical balancing, the way that the individual most often gets thing done is by losing the ego and surrendering to a greater whole. Gotta love Creation, eh? Balance will not be denied!), and for an individual to develop his/her abilities to the max in ANY endeavor requires personal discipline and a constant series of tests to identify what's been adequately developed, what's working better than average, and what really sucks and needs to be fixed ASAP. The intents/results of competition are valid across the board, I think. They're in no way exclusive to sports nor are they in no way excluded from music, at least not any kind of music/musician that desires to serve anything more than a role of strict and total functionality. I know I'm far from alone in lamenting/grousing about the de-evolution of so much sport into a sensationalized method of cynical emotional manipulation to pick the pockets of those fans who seemingly lack the tools to acquire a sense of personal identity by any but vicarious means. Nor am I alone in lamenting/grousing about the shrinking number of jazz (or other, for that matter) musicians whose voices who less than distinct and personal. To me, that's a sign that these musicians have been either unaware of or unwilling to confront the very real challenges, personal and professional, of finding and developing one's "true self" and have instead "settled" for the alternative of somewhat faceless extreme competency, an alternative that is not without challenges, but challenges that are almost always met and conquered through repetitive exercises to develop muscle memory, not by digging into yourself to see what's really there. The resultant craftsmanship is certainly to be admired and respected, but if that's all there is... Most musicians I know, and know of through anecdotal evidence, do indeed possess quite a competitive streak. You have to. But that competitiveness is seldom utilized for purely destructive purposes. Of course, it's a given that the ultimate competition is with one's self, but it's also a given that most musicians play in groups, and that means challenging the people you play with, either professionally or socially, when the need arises. However, the goal of such challenges is not to defeat but to elevate both yourself and the people you love. It's not always a harmonious process, egos can get bruised and tempers can flare, but in the end the realization that "we're all in this for the same thing" prevails, and lessons are both taught and learned by all concerned, the net result being that both individuals and the collective musical culture is elevated in many different ways. That's what "cutting sessions" are ultimately all about (when they arise, anyway - the social milieu that produced such a musical culture has not exactly disappeared, but it has evolved so radically that these impulses are more often than not found in equally radically different expressions these days, and much more subtly than before. But they can still be found, especially if you go looking for them and aren't willing to take "no" for an answer the first time around. ) OTOH, the vast majority of jazz musicians I know have a real aversion to the "gunslinger as lifestyle" mentality. The few guys who are always looking to seek and destroy are not looked upon favorably personally or professionally. Quite often these are younger people who for whatever reason have not yet matured into an awareness and appreciation of the "deeper" realities of music. Also, many of those who practice music-as-destruction also have the same attitude about conducting their business and display a distinct lack of ethics, which only adds to their general disfavor within the community. Still, these people DO exist, always have and always will. One must have the tools at one's disposal to handle them unless one wants to always be handled BY them, and them's tools you don't learn in school, Sunday or otherwise, if you get my drift. "Don't mistake my kindness for weakness" is where it's at. Besides, playing music in a group (and even if when playing solo, if even one person is going to hear it, either at that moment or later, you have a group, like it or not) is very much an interpersonal relationship, a network of them actually, and as in all relationships, all take and no give wears out it's welcome AND it's usefulness sooner or later. Now as to Mnytime's espousal of the Lombardi philosophy, I must say that I am in agreement when it comes to personal preparation and actual performance. The refusal to accept a halfass effort in advance is imperative to excellence, I think, and without thorough mental and physical preparation, it's going to prove near impossible to reach that "zone" that musicians and athletes both reach where everything seems to click as a matter of instinct. But that preparation takes drive, it doesn't do it by itself. Where I back off this philosophy is after the fact, when one takes stock of what it is one has accomplished. It is important, crucial even, to not "settle" when practicing and/or performing, but a realistic evaluation after the fact requires acknowledging and taking some satisfaction in progress, even if the goal was not fully met. Too often, people seem to think that you either have to never be happy/satisfied or else that you should always look at the bright side and celebrate EVERY minor step forward. I think both extremes are bullshit - it's just as wack to never take any satisfaction when incremental progress is made as it is to make a big whoopiefest out of every little step forward. For example, our son has spent his adolescence dealing with some congenitally messed-up knee structures that he inherited from me. He's had 3 knee surgeries to rebuild restructure his knee muscles/tendons between ages 11 & 15. So, participation in recreational sports has been all but impossible for him, and he's missed that. Not varsity sports or anything like that, just the hanging-out and playing ball type of fun that most kids his age like to do in some form or fashion. Well, the last operation finally totally healed up, and this past winter he was invited to play basketball on a team. Having not participated in team sports since Little League (where a freak succession of about 6 beanings in the space of about 2 weeks pretty much ruined a very, VERY good talent - you can say "shake it off" & "get back up there" to an 8 year old until you're blue in the face, but unless you're willing to push him to the point of tears or beyond, you gotta respect the fact that at THAT age, that's a helluva lot of physical and emotional shock in a short period of time and accept that baseball might suddenly become MUCH less interesting for them...), we agreed to let him play. Well, the team was a joke, really, but it was good to see Charlie out there playing with enthusiasm and really, REALLY trying, even if he didn't have the skills, intuitive or developed, of the other kids. I considered it a personal triumph for him. But the team kept losing because, well, they sucked as basketball players, my son included. After their 3rd consecutive loss, Charlie was really, REALLY bummed, angry even. I told him that he should never be happy about a team loss, especially of the lopsided variety they had been repeatedly handed, but that when I saw him out there trying his hardest, running the court and playing aggressive defense, that I was filled with nothing but pride in him because I KNEW that HE was performing to his absolute BEST ability. As long as we both could honestly say that, I told him, the team defeats, as irritating and occasionally humiliating as they were, need not make him feel like a "loser". Well, the season finale came around, the team had won but 1 game, and like too many others, this one turned into a blowout. In the space of the 3rd quarter, the team went from futile effort to apathy to mocking buffoonery, and the younger Mr. Sangrey, having inherited not only bad knees but a propensity for absurdist humor from his old man, was an active participant. TOO active in fact. After the game, I reamed the boy out good. He didn't like it one bit, but he needed to hear it. As long as he was taking pride in his effort and was actually GIVING his best effort, I was cool and supported him no matter how dark the defeats were (and some were VERY dark), even if I was quietly seething inside at the lack of any coaching direction and such - this was HIS thing, not mine. But the second he took on the attitude of a REAL loser, somebody who doesn't even have the personal pride to TRY, somebody who would rather personally give up in collective disgrace than go to collective defeat with personal dignity, he WAS going to hear about it from me, and hear it long and hard. Which he did. Because I love him. If my experience with MY Dad is any indicator, the fact that he didn't want to hear it means nothing more than that it came in the backdoor of his mind, found a cozy little spot to take a nap for a cuppla years, and will wake up when it's time, ready to fully spring into action, much to the surprise of the host. God, I hope so... Now, does the Lombardian ethos accommodate scenarios like this? I mean, you know they're everywhere all the time - efforts being made that fall short in some form or fashion, personal bests that still aren't "good enough" in the larger arena. Are the people who do this REALLY "losers"? Are their lives really total failures? There are those hardcore individuals who will say yes, that you're either a winner or a loser, no in-between, and no qualifying circumstances or relativistic evaluations allowed. But I say bullshit - if a person is really, REALLY challenging themselves, then even if they "fail" at one level, then they have indeed triumphed at another. They might not be a champion of anything other than themselves, but by God, that's a helluva lot more than a LOT of people can say, and I think it's an accomplishment worthy of respect across the board. This holds true for any endeavor, including music AND athletics. Hey, don't believe the hype. Human activity is human activity, period. Removed from the distortions of and endowments by a society that's turned into one giant collective spectator that has seemingly bottomless pockets to pay for the "privilege" of constantly watching other people accomplish things and have successes, Trane & Michael Jordan probably have a lot, LOT more in common than not. I really do believe that. And don't automatically assume that what one demands of oneself under certain circumstances is what one demands of others in all circumstances, at least not in degree. T'aint necessarily so... As a closing sidenote, just let me say that I hope we can all see the irony in having an at times heated debate about the pros and cons of the varying degrees and conceptions of competitiveness. The passion and frequency with which we all state our positions here and elsewhere is incontrivable evidence of the intrinsic nature of the need to "leave a mark" that nearly all of us seem to possess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mnytime Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 (edited) Jim: You better watch out you might get people swearing at you for saying there is competition in music. And than agreeing with my Lomarbid theory (though of course once again in your usual eloquent way) will get you accused of being a Child Abuser now as well. Edited June 22, 2003 by Mnytime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 22, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 Well to be honest, man, some of your statements seemed kinda strong at first glace to me too. But I tried to reconcile what I saw with what I knew, and I just figure that your a really, REALLY driven guy personally who can still deal with others who aren't as "successful" as long as they're not halfassing their way through life 24/7. I'm a lot like that myself. But I DO think that the same broader appreciation we can and do (should?) apply to music can and should be used in all areas of life, including athletic performance, if only after the fact. But that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 Guys, we're all friends here. I think we need to take a step back. Let's cool off for a bit, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 I don't equate music with sports (or, to open a can of worms, race car driving with sports), but this has made for a fasinating study of one aspect of Mnytime's personality. I agree, Paul. As admirable as his personal story and that of his parents is, I have to say that it makes me wonder whether, in instilling a tremendous desire to work and succeed, Mny has also been instilled with the traits that lead to those parents who scream on the sidelines (let alone attack umpires). Sorry, Mny, but I have to tell you, that is the way you are appearing here. Guess I'm headed for that mythical enemies list, huh? What I find fascinating is how you people are so fixated on when I was a kid. One who fixated on my IQ, seems to think I still act like a 12-year-old while he is currently acting as an insecure and jealous 9-year-old. Who also enjoys mocking my health. Another one now seems to think I am some crazed animal that is going to yell at my kids and attack umpires. He seems to forget that those parents are the losers who never accomplished anything in life and need to live through their kids. I don't need to live through anyone. As long as my children are healthy and happy, I am happy. I don't even care if they play sports. Thank You for showing me how wrong I was to share anything personal with you. You can be sure that I will never share anything personal on any board ever again. Hadn't looked at the board since I posted yesterday morning. No slur intended, Mnytime. I sometimes wish that I had a more driven personality - though at other times I'm happy that I don't. We all are what we are, and I enjoy reading your posts. I hope that you're not going to stop sharing simply because of my post and those that followed. I, for one, was interested in what you had to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 22, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 It's always unfortunate when a serious discussion turns personal, and such seems to have happened here. Let's everybody chill out, ok? I would like to say, and in no uncertain terms, that to suggest that anybody has the potential to be an abusive parent is an EXTREMELY provocative act whether the accuser intends it or not. As a parent myself, I would be extremely upset if somebody made such accusations towards me, and I think that the levelling of such charges against Mnytime are a step over the line of what I consider acceptable "tweaking". Giving and recieving personal insults are part and parcel of the on-line game, but child abuse is not a personal matter - it involves third parties, children at that, and that gives it a whole 'nother dimension of sensitivities. Mnytime is indeed a competitor, and by his own admission a fierce one, but to draw the conclusion that he might be an abusive parent just because of that is in no way justified. Abuse is not caused by competitiveness, not in any way that I've seen documented. There are other causes, and Mnytime hasn't shown any signs of those at all. So let's keep any and all insults and/or other expressions of disagreement above the belt, ok? This has been a really interesting thread to both read and participate in. Let's keep it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 Very nicely said, Jim. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 Excuse me, but I never said Mny is or will be a child abuser. I said this: As admirable as his personal story and that of his parents is, I have to say that it makes me wonder whether, in instilling a tremendous desire to work and succeed, Mny has also been instilled with the traits that lead to those parents who scream on the sidelines (let alone attack umpires). which somehow became "Mny and anyone who agrees with him is a child abuser." No one can tell me that people who rant and rave on sidelines are all failures who live through their kids. I'd say a good chunk of them have the exact same driven, hyper-competitive personalities that Mny openly admits to. Does this mean that Mny will do it? I have no idea. But I don't see what makes it an off-the-wall supposition. And I don't see where I accused him of child abuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GregM Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 It's always unfortunate when a serious discussion turns personal, and such seems to have happened here. Let's everybody chill out, ok? I would like to say, and in no uncertain terms, that to suggest that anybody has the potential to be an abusive parent is an EXTREMELY provocative act whether the accuser intends it or not. As a parent myself, I would be extremely upset if somebody made such accusations towards me, and I think that the levelling of such charges against Mnytime are a step over the line of what I consider acceptable "tweaking". . . .So let's keep any and all insults and/or other expressions of disagreement above the belt, ok? This has been a really interesting thread to both read and participate in. Let's keep it that way. Jim, you'll have to forgive me, but this sounds totally hypocritical coming from you. On the BNBB you once told me I should never have kids. Granted, this is taken a bit out of context, and frankly I forget the context--it might have been one of your one-liners with the smiley face or buried in a 6 paragraph diatribe. But the ad hominem direction of your post was every bit as intentionally insulting and misguided as you've couched these posts directed at mny to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted June 22, 2003 Report Share Posted June 22, 2003 I can't help but wonder how long this board will be around... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 I can't help but wonder how long this board will be around... Congrats, Mark on the six bars. How does it feel to outdo MacArthur and Ike by one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 Good lord! I didn't even notice that! Hah! And Ms. Watson back in high school said I'd become a sleaze merchant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GregM Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 (edited) Are you a sleaze merchant? Well, punk, are ya? Edited June 23, 2003 by GregM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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