Indian Music and Jazz

[Guest che]

I guess is one way Indian classical music can appear 'simple' to jazz musicians and those like me who listen to jazz.

The Indian music I have listened to seems to stay within the same scale  or raga, the result is a 'trance' like sound, with very little change of keys or chord for the duration of the track.

The introduction of jazz seems to create something different and appealing.

Che.

To me, Indian music is much more complicated. They're playing semi-tones; IMO there's a ton of nuance in their music. I think they're rhythms are very difficult to follow. I purchased some tabla drums years ago and haven't got anywhere with them.

Sometimes simple can be complicated

Che.

[Jazz Kat]

Dave Brubeck had an Indian influenced album, I forget the name. There was some other indian drummer on it too.

[Jazz Kat]

[Guest che]

Dave Brubeck had an Indian influenced album, I forget the name. There was some other indian drummer on it too.

Can you remember the name?

Che.

[Jazz Kat]

Palghat Raghu

[mikeweil]

When Indian Hari Har Rao was teaching at UCLA in the 1960's, a number of Californian jazz musicians took lessons in Indian music. The desire to apply their theoretical knowledge to their playing resulted in the (unfortunately unrecorded) Hindustani Jazz Sextet - Don Ellis, Emil Richards, Dave McKay, Bill Plummer, Joe Porcaro, Ray Neapolitan all were members and found themselves in the Don Ellis Orchestra soon. Richards had to split for studio commitments but soon formed his Microtonal Blues Band, which recorded a few very nice albums for Impulse (all OOP).

So the learning of Indian rhythm had a lot of influence on the use of the so-called "odd time signatures" (a very odd term, IMHO) in jazz.

The Indian system of learning rhythm is a very logical and comprehensive one and probably the best in the world - most traditional musical cultures are more advanced rhythmically than the "Western" world.

[Guest che]

When Indian Hari Har Rao was teaching at UCLA in the 1960's, a number of Californian jazz musicians took lessons in Indian music. The desire to apply their theoretical knowledge to their playing resulted in the (unfortunately unrecorded) Hindustani Jazz Sextet - Don Ellis, Emil Richards, Dave McKay, Bill Plummer, Joe Porcaro, Ray Neapolitan all were members and found themselves in the Don Ellis Orchestra soon. Richards had to split for studio commitments but soon formed his Microtonal Blues Band, which recorded a few very nice albums for Impulse (all OOP).

So the learning of Indian rhythm had a lot of influence on the use of the so-called "odd time signatures" (a very odd term, IMHO) in jazz.

The Indian system of learning rhythm is a very logical and comprehensive one and probably the best in the world - most traditional musical cultures are more advanced rhythmically than the "Western" world.

I enjoyed reading your post.

So how does jazz fit into this context?

Che.

[A Lark Ascending]

On one occasion I saw Remembering Shakti in Birmingham, their first tour since the long break - half the audience were aging jazz-rocker like me; the other half from the Asian community (out for Zakir Hussain and Hariprasad Chaurasia, I suspect).

The Asian listeners kept bursting into applause at various points whilst we jazz-rockers looked round mystified. Clearly the former knew what they were listening to structurally and could react to a particularly fine improvisation within the codes of the music.

I got the feeling the rest of us were actually musical tourists - loving the music, impressed by its colour and virtuosity but not really comprehending what was happening.

I always feel a bit like that when listening to Asian or Middle Eastern music.

[chandra]

Che:

Thanks for starting this thread, I have learnt a lot. It took me a couple of hours to get through this thread, visting all the links and listening to some of the music etc.

I have learnt a bit of Carnatic ( south indian ) flute but I am more an avid listner than a perfomer. I am very interested in listening to the various efforts at fusion with Jazz.

First a recommendation: http://www.guitarprasanna.com/mainindex.html

Prasanna is trained in both south indian classical music and Jazz. I don't know how good a Jazz musician he is but his straight indian recordings show that he is very well accomplished. He has done some interesting fusion projects as well.

The thread on Rudresh Mahanthappa is the most enlightening. I listened to Kannada.mpg and the_preserver.mp3 at his web site http://rudreshm.tripod.com/cgi-bin/index.html . It sounds great but to my ear I don't hear much Indian classical music or like any fusion music!! It sounds like Jazz but I do hear something different. If they have indeed incorporated any Indian ragas, they have accomplished something very interesting. Many jazz-indian fusion music is not that terribly interesting to me since they sound Indian to some extent but without its depth and I get distracted with variouos things going on. I always thought that there should be another way to borrow ideas and may be these guys are doing just that. I will have to listen to them some more.

Che, I read with interest that to you Indian music sounds 'simple'. As AfricaBrass wrote, the music itself is not simple but I can see why it may sound simple to some. My guess is that the lack of harmony might sound that way to ears that are used to music with harmony. ( Interestingly, it is the opposite for me... The chords in a Piano solo, for example, prevents me to appreciate the melody since that is what my ears look out for. If someone just sings the melodic line with chords played on other instruments, then when I go back and listen to the Piano solo, I enjoy it a lot better ). Also, regarding the 'trance' like feeling you get, there are certain ragas that do induce that. Also in North Indian classical music, during the intial stages of a song, it is really slooooowwwww with just the melodic line and that can be trancy!! ( the sympathetic strings of Sitar adds to that feeling even when the music is dynamic ). Give some south indian music a try, especially the song portion of it after the initial improvisational sections, you may find that a bit more dynamic.

I read the sample pages of the Derek Bailey book on Amazon. It is written in a scholarly style. I get what he writes ( though I didn't learn the music that way ) but I wonder what kind of an overall impression that some one new to the indian classical music will leave with. Most perfomers don't think along those lines and definitely most experienced listeners don't process the music that way. But the problem is, how does one describe the music to someone who is not familiar with it!! Given that difficult task, Derek Bailey's work sounds like a worthwhile read.

Chandra

Edited April 1, 2005 by chandra

[Guest che]

Che:

Thanks for starting this thread, I have learnt a lot. It took me a couple of hours to get through this thread, visting all the links and listening to some of the music etc.

I have learnt a bit of Carnatic ( south indian ) flute but I am more an avid listner than a perfomer. I am very interested in listening to the various efforts at fusion with Jazz.

First a recommendation: http://www.guitarprasanna.com/mainindex.html

Prasanna is trained in both south indian classical music and Jazz. I don't know how good a Jazz musician he is but his pure indian recordings show that he is very well accomplished. He has done some interesting fusion projects as well.

The thread on Rudresh Mahanthappa is most enlightening. I listened to Kannada.mpg and the_preserver.mp3 at his web site http://rudreshm.tripod.com/cgi-bin/index.html . It sounds great but to my ear I don't hear much Indian classical music or like any fusion music!! It sounds like Jazz but I do hear something different. If they have indeed incorporated any Indian ragas, they have accomplished something very interesting. Many jazz-indian fusion music is not that terribly interesting to me since they sound Indian to some extent but without its depth and I get distracted with variouos things going on. I always thought that there should be another way to borrow ideas and may be these guys are doing just that. I will have to listen to them more.

Che, I read with interest that to you Indian music sounds 'simple'. As AfricaBrass wrote the music itself is not simple but I can see why it may sound simple to some. My guess is that the lack of harmony might sound that way to ears that are used to music with harmony. ( Interestingly, it is the opposite for me... The chords in a Piano solo, for example, prevents me to appreciate the melody since that is what my ears look out for. If someone just sings the melodic line with chords played on other instruments, then when I go back and listen to the Piano solo, I enjoy it a lot better ). Also, regarding the 'trance' like feeling you get, there are certain ragas that do induce that. Also in North Indian classical music, during the intial stages of a song, it is really slooooowwwww with just the melodic line and that can be trancy!! ( the sympathetic strings of Sitar adds to that feeling even when the music is dynamic ). Give some south indian music a try, especially the song portion of it after the initial improvisational sections, you may find that a bit more dynamic.

I read the sample pages of the Derek Bailey book on Amazon. It is written in a scholarly style. I get what he writes ( though I didn't learn the music that way ) but I wonder what kind of an overall impression that some one new to the music will leave with. Most perfomers don't think along those lines and definitely most experienced listeners don't process the music that way. But the problem is, how does one describe the music to someone who is not familiar with it!! Given that difficult task, Derek Bailey's work sounds like a worthwhile read.

Chandra

chandra.

Thank you for you post I very much enjoyed reading it and will check out some of the links and suggestions you make.

I did not mean to imply that Indian music was simple to play, just as you suggest it seems simple when you listen to it. Anyway I will check out the links and try and locate some of the music you mention.

It is also good to connect with someone who has an interest in Cricket

Che.

[king ubu]

I guess is one way Indian classical music can appear 'simple' to jazz musicians and those like me who listen to jazz.

The Indian music I have listened to seems to stay within the same scale  or raga, the result is a 'trance' like sound, with very little change of keys or chord for the duration of the track.

The introduction of jazz seems to create something different and appealing.

Che.

To me, Indian music is much more complicated. They're playing semi-tones; IMO there's a ton of nuance in their music. I think they're rhythms are very difficult to follow. I purchased some tabla drums years ago and haven't got anywhere with them.

I think you're right on the money there, AB!

I got some tablas, too, and tried to learn some of those easier rhythms (Teental, for instance), but HELL!

Indian classical music might *sound* simple and trance-like, but it is definitely NOT! There's a whole other musical world and tradition there, which has very little in common with Western music (jazz, at least in part, is Western music, too).

A few thoughts: Indian classical music is not written. You cannot learn it by studying printed editions of anything, you cannot look at it, all you can is listen.

The great master musicians have their pupils, they grow up in their masters homes, they don't just go there for lessons once in a week, they deeply absorb the music. Knowledge is passed by playing and living, not by what we understand as teaching.

On the complexity: as has been noted, Indian classical music (I assume everybody is talking of North Indian music here, because South Indian is a whole other thing again, that I know near to nothing of)... got lost, sorry. As has been noted, Indian classical music uses micro-tones. Also, Indian classical music has far more different scales than we well-tempered (musically, that is) Westerners could imagine (all those diminished and augmented scales included).

As far as I understand, there are a few basic things to Indian classical music:

1) There is a rhythmic "frame" to each tune/performance. That frame can vary greatly - there are the easy ones (Teental, which has 4 times 8 or 4 times 16 beats) and there are the highly complex ones (that's where Don Ellis came from, doing that crazy tune that opens his great Monterey Pacific Jazz album).

An Indian musician always knows *exactly* where in that rhythmic frame he is, while playing - there is no easy-going trance thing there.

2) On top of the rhythmic "frame" (don't ask me if connected with it or not, and if, in what way, but I guess it's all much more complex than how I put it here), on top of that rhytmic "frame", thus, there is a melodic (NOT harmonic - Indian music does not know any harmony in our Western sence) frame (a scale). The scales used may differ quite some from what we call a scale, although we have that one minor scale that is played differently when played up from when played down - that kind of thing happens in Indian scales, too - you are (not) allowed to play particular steps of the scale if you have (or have not) played certain other steps just before it.

3) Indian classical music is performance-music (what music isnt't... whom do I tell, but...): each performance is organized in itself. If, for instance, you have a sitar player, backed by tabla (and tamboura, as always), he starts solo, sets the "mood". That part (I don't know how it's called, actually) may take as long as an hour (if they play Indian-style, aka real, not a short concert done for Westerners, their concerts go on forever, not just two hours or so).

I have no closer idea about how such performances are actually organized, but organized they are. They follow a mood ("raga", I think, means just that) - so, for instance, you don't play a morning "mood" when the concert takes place in the night, or a winter "mood" when it's summer outside, whatever...

Hope these mumblings make any sense - I'm no scholar, I merely scratched the surface, but I love the music (have seen Remember Shakti last year, have seen Zakir H. several times, as well as Hariprasad Chaurasia and some others, too).

And if you want to know my opinion: the Handy/Akbar Khan somehow is nice, the Harriott/Mayer is wierd, and both don't really work (yet I will keep them both and enjoy them, now and then...)

ubu

[A Lark Ascending]

I'm not a great fan of the Harriott/Mayer records. There's something very foursquare in the rhythm - like a beat that runs through the music. I like these crossovers when there is room for the music to breath.

This is Jazz/Indian mix that works for me:

I look forward to hearing the Speake. I have a couple of his earlier records.

Edited March 31, 2005 by Bev Stapleton

[A Lark Ascending]

There are increasing numbers of Asian musicians breaking into various musical genres in the UK at present. I really enjoyed this one a few years back:

Whereas Nitin Sawhney, who appeared at the Cheltenham Jazz Festival a few years back, struck me as much more ordinary.

I've also enjoyed the vocal recordings of Sheila Chandra.

********

Trilok Gurtu is an interesting case. I love this one from 1997:

But everything I've heard since has been so concerned wth crossing-cultures and breaking boundaries that it has come out rather high-production bland.

*********

Going off at a further tangent there are some intriguing crossovers with Asian music in the guitar playing of Davy Graham and John Renbourne. I was listening to this the other day and some of the arrangements of English folk songs mixed with Asian inspired guitar are quite extraordinary:

[Guest che]

Just been listening to some Fred Anderson, in particular the track "Bombay (Children of Cambodia). This has Hamid Drake on tabla drums and the combination of the this with Anderson's booming sax is fantastic.

Che.

[chandra]

Che  wrote: Anyway I will check out the links and try and locate some of the music you mention.

I thought I will provide a link where you and others interested can check out some of the south indian classical music.

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/

This is a searchable site with a huge collection of music. Recording quality is not great but they give you album info for you to pursue further if you like.

Now you need to know something before you can search and play songs. Let me start you off here...

1) In the top there are three boxes to enter search terms.

Under Category box pull down menu : select Carnatic Instrumental

Under In pull down menu : select album

In the search box, enter together

and hit search.

Once results show up, scroll down all the way, 7th cut from the bottom is

a Sax piece by Kadri Gopalnath ( with flute by another artist ). If you click on the song name, it will open up a player and play it there.

2) For some examples of 'hard to precisely nail down microtones', try these two.

Category: Carnatic Instrumental

In: album

Search box: Dream Journey

Third cut is 'Alai Paayuthe' in a raga called 'Kanada'. When I learnt it, it was a struggle to get the soul of the raga right since it only comes through when a particular note is executed with a microtonal variation which oscillates over a small range. My teacher can only demonstrate it but it is hard to write it down, so one has to just practice until you get it right.

Second cut is also an interesting raga called 'Kaapi'.

Just for info, though Kadri Gopalnath is an accomplished musician with depth, on these recordings it comes out as a bit on the lighter side. But I thought given the saxaphone as the bridge, this may be easy to relate to.

3) Now for a little bit on the heavier side which also emphasises the concert performance structure, try this search.

Category: Carnatic Instrumental

In: All

search box: Ragam Thanam Pallavi

"Ragam Thanam Pallavi" refers to a particular format of presentation of the material and this is largely improvisational. Initial section is only melodic improvisation, the second section the rhythmic section joins and the third section is the rhythmic solo. This can all be set in different ragas and rhythms. And beware, these pieces tend to be long. ( if you are tired of listening to stuff without rhythm, you can fast forward to get to the middle section )

I thought I will point you to these two in the search result.

Look for these two in the results

a) Artist : Krishnan T N & Kumari Vijikrishnan

Ragam : Sankarabharanam

Thalam : Aadi

Instrument : Violin

- This raga uses notes from the major scale ( as in all white keys starting from C ) without much use for microtones, so you can get a feel for what makes the indian music sound different ( which comes from the ornamentation and oscillation of the notes ) even without the usage of microtone intervals.

b) Ragam, Thanam & Pallavi

Artist : Ramani N

Ragam : Kambhoji

Composer : Ramani N

- Towards the end of the second section, there is a mixture of ragas...

This site is heavily hyperlinked. So once you get started you can start clicking away. e.g at raga names to get all the songs in that raga etc.

I am curious to hear your impressions...

Edited April 1, 2005 by chandra

[Guest che]

chandra.

Thanks for the info I will check it out and get back to you.

Che.

[AfricaBrass]

I guess is one way Indian classical music can appear 'simple' to jazz musicians and those like me who listen to jazz.

The Indian music I have listened to seems to stay within the same scale  or raga, the result is a 'trance' like sound, with very little change of keys or chord for the duration of the track.

The introduction of jazz seems to create something different and appealing.

Che.

To me, Indian music is much more complicated. They're playing semi-tones; IMO there's a ton of nuance in their music. I think they're rhythms are very difficult to follow. I purchased some tabla drums years ago and haven't got anywhere with them.

I think you're right on the money there, AB!

I got some tablas, too, and tried to learn some of those easier rhythms (Teental, for instance), but HELL!

Indian classical music might *sound* simple and trance-like, but it is definitely NOT! There's a whole other musical world and tradition there, which has very little in common with Western music (jazz, at least in part, is Western music, too).

A few thoughts: Indian classical music is not written. You cannot learn it by studying printed editions of anything, you cannot look at it, all you can is listen.

The great master musicians have their pupils, they grow up in their masters homes, they don't just go there for lessons once in a week, they deeply absorb the music. Knowledge is passed by playing and living, not by what we understand as teaching.

On the complexity: as has been noted, Indian classical music (I assume everybody is talking of North Indian music here, because South Indian is a whole other thing again, that I know near to nothing of)... got lost, sorry. As has been noted, Indian classical music uses micro-tones. Also, Indian classical music has far more different scales than we well-tempered (musically, that is) Westerners could imagine (all those diminished and augmented scales included).

As far as I understand, there are a few basic things to Indian classical music:

1) There is a rhythmic "frame" to each tune/performance. That frame can vary greatly - there are the easy ones (Teental, which has 4 times 8 or 4 times 16 beats) and there are the highly complex ones (that's where Don Ellis came from, doing that crazy tune that opens his great Monterey Pacific Jazz album).

An Indian musician always knows *exactly* where in that rhythmic frame he is, while playing - there is no easy-going trance thing there.

2) On top of the rhythmic "frame" (don't ask me if connected with it or not, and if, in what way, but I guess it's all much more complex than how I put it here), on top of that rhytmic "frame", thus, there is a melodic (NOT harmonic - Indian music does not know any harmony in our Western sence) frame (a scale). The scales used may differ quite some from what we call a scale, although we have that one minor scale that is played differently when played up from when played down - that kind of thing happens in Indian scales, too - you are (not) allowed to play particular steps of the scale if you have (or have not) played certain other steps just before it.

3) Indian classical music is performance-music (what music isnt't... whom do I tell, but...): each performance is organized in itself. If, for instance, you have a sitar player, backed by tabla (and tamboura, as always), he starts solo, sets the "mood". That part (I don't know how it's called, actually) may take as long as an hour (if they play Indian-style, aka real, not a short concert done for Westerners, their concerts go on forever, not just two hours or so).

I have no closer idea about how such performances are actually organized, but organized they are. They follow a mood ("raga", I think, means just that) - so, for instance, you don't play a morning "mood" when the concert takes place in the night, or a winter "mood" when it's summer outside, whatever...

Hope these mumblings make any sense - I'm no scholar, I merely scratched the surface, but I love the music (have seen Remember Shakti last year, have seen Zakir H. several times, as well as Hariprasad Chaurasia and some others, too).

And if you want to know my opinion: the Handy/Akbar Khan somehow is nice, the Harriott/Mayer is wierd, and both don't really work (yet I will keep them both and enjoy them, now and then...)

ubu

Ubu, sorry I missed your post!!!

Yeah, when I play my tablas, I don't sound anything like Ali Akbar Khan.

Thank you for saying the things about Indian Classical music that I failed to. I think it's one of the most beautiful and rich form of music in the world.

I enjoy those Paul Horn albums I mentioned earlier in this thread because they take me away to the Himalayas. I always imagine myself there when I listen to this music.

:rsmile:

[sidewinder]

Just want to put in a plug here for the two Indo-Jazz Fusions CDs put out by John Mayer in the years before he very sadly passed (road accident).

They are:

'Inja' (Indo Jazz Fusions 2000 on FMR)

'Shiva Nataraj King of Dance (also FMR)

Both of these CDs offer a very nice updating of the classic Harriott/Mayer material, with some contemporary touches. I was very disappointed not to get to see this group locally when they toured the material about 3-4 years ago (they closed admission about 5 minutes before I arrived in a wonderful rural church venue). John Mayer is very sadly missed indeed on the UK scene..

[KAR120C]

I just ordered the following, after reading the thread:

Southern Brothers [sACD] K. Gopalnath/Newton/Srinivasan (CD, 2002)

The Journey Martin Speake (CD, 2004)

Mother Tongue Rudresh Mahanthappa Quartet (CD,2004)

I'm excited about all three.

[A Lark Ascending]

This is a lovely record - described as Persian and Indian Improvisation:

Kayhan Kalhor kamancheh

Shujaat Husain Khan sitar, vocals

Sandeep Das tabla