Pianoless Jazz

[Dave James]

Just curious as to what people think of jazz without a piano. Frankly, I've struggled with this ever since I started listening to this music many moon ago. Occasionally, I'll come across something that works OK for me (Lee Konitz, for instance) but, by and large, I have a hard time warming up to it. To me, without the presence of this instrument, there seems to be a loss of momentum. I wouldn't go so far as to plant the kiss of death and accuse pianoless jazz of not swinging, but I can't deny that there's an element of that in my reaction.

Also, for the musicians among us, what is the thinking behind the elimination of the piano? Is it liberating in some way, perhaps more challenging? Does is create space where there was none before. If you have a preference, what would it be and why?

Up over and out.

[couw]

some previous remarks here

[Johnny E]

Also, for the musicians among us, what is the thinking behind the elimination of the piano? Is it liberating in some way, perhaps more challenging? Does is create space where there was none before. If you have a preference, what would it be and why?

Up over and out.

I've found that it's both liberating & more challenging. You need two things or it sounds empty and listless - first, a bassist & drummer who lock in with one another and can cook. Second, at least one very strong soloist. You can make up for these things in other ways when you have a piano player because the pianist gives a rhythm section cohesiveness and always keeps the soloist from getting lost by comping those chords. That said, in the hands of capable musicians, the pianoless group can be liberating in that your not confined by the chord structure as a soloist. Check out William Parkers "O’Neil’s Porch" or Andrew Cyrille's "Special People" if you'd like to hear some pianoless shit that kicks ass and seriously grooves.

[BFrank]

Two musicians who consistently seem to be able to make it work:

Jack DeJohnette

Dave Holland

[sal]

I really like it. Especially the AACM/Chicago type jazz, which rarely uses piano.

Check out the trio recordings by the great tenors like Sonny Rollins and Joe Hendeson. They swing like mad.

[Jazz Kat]

If there's no piano, then I need, an organ or guitar or vibes, to give it that colour, most of the time, for me. I don't like it when Elvin didn't use a piano with his trio in the later days of Blue Note. The Gerry Mulligan Quartet did allright without it. I really like The Shape Of Jazz To Come, which has no piano. Most of the time I feel like it's missing something without a piano, but not on that album.

[catesta]

I can enjoy piano-less jazz just fine.

For me though, I still prefer to hear a piano, most of the time. It is probably my favorite instrument overall, and for my ears, it kind of makes things complete.

The piano does better than most by itself as well.

[John Tapscott]

I don't like it when Elvin didn't use a piano with his trio in the later days of Blue Note.

By piano-less jazz, I presume you mean with no other chording instrument, either, like vibes or guitar.

Personally, I like it just fine and the sense of openeness it brings, but it really depends on who the players are, especially the horn player(s). Second-rate players couldn't handle it. I really dig those Elvin Jones BN recordings you're referring to. Joe Farrell was a monster player on those recordings. He played tenor, soprano and flute. So along with Jones and Jimmy Garrison, there's lots of variety which really makes those albums work well. I also think it sounds great when the horn player maintains the changes for his solo. That really helps to keep the listener involved and gives some guideposts along the way.

I heard Joe Lovano play 2 hours with nothing but his tenor, bass, and drums, and that worked very well, too. It was one of the greatest jazz concerts I've ever attended.

[Jazz Kat]

I can enjoy piano-less jazz just fine.

For me though, I still prefer to hear a piano, most of the time. It is probably my favorite instrument overall, and for my ears, it kind of makes things complete.

The piano does better than most by itself as well. 

It seems to be a lot of kats' favorite instrument. I dig it along with a tenor or other horns, but I usually can only take so much piano trio..

Edited May 11, 2005 by Jazz Kat

[maren]

Two musicians who consistently seem to be able to make it work:

Jack DeJohnette

Dave Holland

I like lots of things without piano -- but this comment struck me because Jack DeJohnette is actually a good pianist, too! Maybe that's his secret -- even when he's "only" playing the drums, he's still the pianist in the group!

[7/4]

Two musicians who consistently seem to be able to make it work:

Jack DeJohnette

Dave Holland

I like lots of things without piano -- but this comment struck me because Jack DeJohnette is actually a good pianist, too! Maybe that's his secret -- even when he's "only" playing the drums, he's still the pianist in the group!

I think all the real amazing drummers also played piano.

[Guest akanalog]

i need something more than ONE horn plus bass and drums. a sax trio doesn't do it for me. i am a rhythm kind of guy, but in this setup there is really just one dominant voice usually and even if this voice is a powerful one like farrell on "puttin it together" or rollins on his vanguard live sets, i still get bored-and to make up for this sometimes there are more bass and drum solos rather than true interaction, which bores me even more. even another sax or a flute or a trumpet or even percussion-something, doesn't have to be chordal, to add another voice to the mix. actually i feel the same way about anything except piano trios. i guess piano or vibes even since they can be used as a lead or a rhythm instrument, to me at least, open more possibilities for interaction with a rhythm section in the trio format. i guess this is illustrated by the bill evans trio-which i find boring for other reasons. elvin jones "poly-currents" is awesome, by the way. i think this is a case where being freed from a chordal instrument allowed the rhythm section to really groove even harder.

another recent example of this is the billy drummond album "dubai". i don't love this album since i am not a fan of the musicians involved (especiall the sax players), but they do a great job of keeping the two sax/bass/drums format interesting and fresh for a whole album.

[Jazz Kat]

Two musicians who consistently seem to be able to make it work:

Jack DeJohnette

Dave Holland

I like lots of things without piano -- but this comment struck me because Jack DeJohnette is actually a good pianist, too! Maybe that's his secret -- even when he's "only" playing the drums, he's still the pianist in the group!

I think all the real amazing drummers also played piano.

My old piano teacher used to say, "drummers make the best pianists." I think he was referring to drummers' sense of rhythm.

[Guest akanalog]

i think that dave holland uses steve nelsons vibes a lot like a piano in his recent groups so i don't think they count. however it is true previous to this he definitely didn't use rhythm instruments too often.

[7/4]

Piano and vibes are tuned percussion instruments.

[Jazz Kat]

That's true, many people forget that. Or just don't think it to begin with.

[JSngry]

...Jack DeJohnette is actually a good pianist, too! Maybe that's his secret -- even when he's "only" playing the drums, he's still the pianist in the group!

That's the most cogent (and deep) comment I've read here in quite a while.

Instruments don't make the music. People do.

[RDK]

Instruments don't make the music. People do.

One of the wildest club shows I ever saw (over a decade ago now) was a three-fingered guitarist accompanied by a guy banging two sticks on a cardboard box.

Seriously.

[SEK]

Instruments don't make the music. People do.

That's why piano or pianoless is not is not an issue for me.

[catesta]

...Jack DeJohnette is actually a good pianist, too!  Maybe that's his secret -- even when he's "only" playing the drums, he's still the pianist in the group!

That's the most cogent (and deep) comment I've read here in quite a while.

Instruments don't make the music. People do.

It's true, it's true!

[.:.impossible]

I just don't have that hang-up. Often times I prefer piano-less music. Pianists often time tend to take up more space than the other musicians. In the end, it is the people making the music. The instrumentation comes further down the line.

[PHILLYQ]

I don't like it when Elvin didn't use a piano with his trio in the later days of Blue Note.

By piano-less jazz, I presume you mean with no other chording instrument, either, like vibes or guitar.

Personally, I like it just fine and the sense of openeness it brings, but it really depends on who the players are, especially the horn player(s). Second-rate players couldn't handle it. I really dig those Elvin Jones BN recordings you're referring to. Joe Farrell was a monster player on those recordings. He played tenor, soprano and flute. So along with Jones and Jimmy Garrison, there's lots of variety which really makes those albums work well. I also think it sounds great when the horn player maintains the changes for his solo. That really helps to keep the listener involved and gives some guideposts along the way.

What are the recordingswith Elvin Jones, Joe Farrell & Jimmy Garrison? Can you name some titles? Thank you for the help.

[Jazz Kat]

Puttin It Together, 1968, Joe Farrell and Garrison. Blue Note 4282.

[JSngry]

As well as The Ultimate.

[Jazz Kat]

Good thing I had my handy dandy Blue Note cataloge right here. I got any BN you need to know! Step right up!