Is rap tomorrow's jazz?

[Quasimado]

I don't think most people consider rap to be just a vocal style like scat before it or talking blues or vocalese. It's a musical genre. Tries to sell that way. To that end, I meant that the word "rap" will not have the cachet of the word "jazz". From 1920 to 1960, all sorts of musical styles such as swing, big band, be bop, cool, hard bop, soul jazz, free jazz, etc. have all tried to align themselves somehow with jazz, i.e. the music originally called jazz by the first people who called their music jazz in the 1920s. No way rap will carry that kind of prestige. Definitely NOT infinite number of musical genres coming out of rap. Not a single one yet in 30-40 years. A musical style as different from King Oliver as Sun Ra or Modern Jazz Quartet. Calling itself rap because the word "rap" is too cool to let go of? No way!

Not only do you not know what it is, you don't even know that there's something been happening here, do you, Mr. Jones?

Yeah Jim,

Well it's not all dumb 2/4 shit but it's close - but where is Max, Lester, Bird and Warne Marsh?

C'mon man, you're bullshitting!

Q

[paul secor]

I don't think most people consider rap to be just a vocal style like scat before it or talking blues or vocalese. It's a musical genre. Tries to sell that way. To that end, I meant that the word "rap" will not have the cachet of the word "jazz". From 1920 to 1960, all sorts of musical styles such as swing, big band, be bop, cool, hard bop, soul jazz, free jazz, etc. have all tried to align themselves somehow with jazz, i.e. the music originally called jazz by the first people who called their music jazz in the 1920s. No way rap will carry that kind of prestige. Definitely NOT infinite number of musical genres coming out of rap. Not a single one yet in 30-40 years. A musical style as different from King Oliver as Sun Ra or Modern Jazz Quartet. Calling itself rap because the word "rap" is too cool to let go of? No way!

Not only do you not know what it is, you don't even know that there's something been happening here, do you, Mr. Jones?

Sorry - Throwing out a cheap shot at someone & posting a You Tube link as a supposed backup to it doesn't cut it for me.

[Noj]

As clear cut as we'd like the genres to be, for me hip hop is part of the organic relationship of music and the dance floor, as well as music and politics. Rap was born specifically out of reggae and so-called house music, and contains elements of funk, soul, and the improvising spirit of jazz.

Consider the dub movement in reggae, wherein the rhythm is looped and extended, the drums are electronically manipulated, and the "toaster" keeps the crowd moving on the microphone. This translated over to "house music," where disco DJs realized that certain portions of certain songs were much more danceable than the rest of the song. So, loop that portion of it up and the crowd will keep dancing. Then the DJ would act like the reggae toaster and urge the crowd to keep dancing. This is the birth of rap.

One can really trace the motivation behind the birth of rap by following what people liked to dance to, much the same way you can follow jazz falling out of popular favor by not being what people liked to dance to.

Concurrently, add the influence of James Brown and Gil-Scott Heron and other spoken word artists, and one can see how rap departed from simply being dance music into social commentary.

In jazz there was the "cutting contest," pitting the chops of two players against each other, in rap there is the improvisatory "battle rapping" (this is how Eminem rose to fame and is really his biggest talent). Music as sport.

It seems like there's some sort of appalled reaction to rap, with folks wondering, "how the hell did this ever happen to music?" But really it was a natural progression and it happened exactly the way it was supposed to happen.

[JSngry]

I don't think most people consider rap to be just a vocal style like scat before it or talking blues or vocalese. It's a musical genre. Tries to sell that way. To that end, I meant that the word "rap" will not have the cachet of the word "jazz". From 1920 to 1960, all sorts of musical styles such as swing, big band, be bop, cool, hard bop, soul jazz, free jazz, etc. have all tried to align themselves somehow with jazz, i.e. the music originally called jazz by the first people who called their music jazz in the 1920s. No way rap will carry that kind of prestige. Definitely NOT infinite number of musical genres coming out of rap. Not a single one yet in 30-40 years. A musical style as different from King Oliver as Sun Ra or Modern Jazz Quartet. Calling itself rap because the word "rap" is too cool to let go of? No way!

Not only do you not know what it is, you don't even know that there's something been happening here, do you, Mr. Jones?

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Yeah Jim,

Well it's not all dumb 2/4 shit but it's close - but where is Max, Lester, Bird and Warne Marsh?

C'mon man, you're bullshitting!

Q

They're all dead, and the world that created them is more than half-past dead.

And yet life goes on.

I don't think most people consider rap to be just a vocal style like scat before it or talking blues or vocalese. It's a musical genre. Tries to sell that way. To that end, I meant that the word "rap" will not have the cachet of the word "jazz". From 1920 to 1960, all sorts of musical styles such as swing, big band, be bop, cool, hard bop, soul jazz, free jazz, etc. have all tried to align themselves somehow with jazz, i.e. the music originally called jazz by the first people who called their music jazz in the 1920s. No way rap will carry that kind of prestige. Definitely NOT infinite number of musical genres coming out of rap. Not a single one yet in 30-40 years. A musical style as different from King Oliver as Sun Ra or Modern Jazz Quartet. Calling itself rap because the word "rap" is too cool to let go of? No way!

Not only do you not know what it is, you don't even know that there's something been happening here, do you, Mr. Jones?

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Sorry - Throwing out a cheap shot at someone & posting a You Tube link as a supposed backup to it doesn't cut it for me.

I'll remember that the next time I have something to say directly to you.

[JSngry]

It seems like there's some sort of appalled reaction to rap, with folks wondering, "how the hell did this ever happen to music?"

Yeah, between "free jazz" and "rap music" it's like white people who needed to feel comforted (or whatever) by having a "hip" form of "contemporary black music" to be down with suddenly felt abandoned, and guess what - it was the music's fault!

Ok, for real -I don't like a lot - most, really - of so-called "rap" or "hip-hop" music. But there is a segment of it, all of it "underground" that is vital, creative, and interesting to me as music.

As far as that musical value goes, different strokes and all that, but the notion that the whole "hip-hop movement" is not a deep, resonant cultural fact with many voices and perspectives not (best) expressed anywhere else is nothing more than a statement of sheer ignorance about what has been going on in the world for the last 30 years. It's more than "rap records". It's poetry, literature, music (and perspectives on musics), fashion, art, politics, damn near everything that defines the word "culture".

I expect most people (including myself) to not be wholly aware of that which they are not an immediate part. But damned if I can cut anybody (including myself) for enough slack to be willfully and totally ignorant of a fundamental part of today's America (and world, for that matter).

Put another way, how does anybody expect a post-apartheid America to function from and with the same paradigm as did the pre-apartheid America? That's eitehr wishful thinking or the most ignorant of ignorances. Or both.

[cih]

As clear cut as we'd like the genres to be, for me hip hop is part of the organic relationship of music and the dance floor, as well as music and politics. Rap was born specifically out of reggae and so-called house music, and contains elements of funk, soul, and the improvising spirit of jazz.

Consider the dub movement in reggae, wherein the rhythm is looped and extended, the drums are electronically manipulated, and the "toaster" keeps the crowd moving on the microphone. This translated over to "house music," where disco DJs realized that certain portions of certain songs were much more danceable than the rest of the song. So, loop that portion of it up and the crowd will keep dancing. Then the DJ would act like the reggae toaster and urge the crowd to keep dancing. This is the birth of rap.

Reggae and Hip Hop - the to-and-froing of US to JA music is complicated. Lots of references state that DJ Kool Herc came over to NY from Jamaica as a teenager in '67, having heard the Sound system toasters etc - but at that point in JA, the dj style was fairly limited - people like Count Machuki, King Stitt had toasted only interjections and intros etc - and this was originally (1950s) copied from the jive talk of US R&B deejays on the radio anyway - AND, the music the Jamaicans talked over at that early time were US products - Louis Jordan etc... subsequently the sound system guys (Coxsone Dodd, Duke Reid..) decided to record local musicians - largely the musicians that the sound systems had displaced from the earlier live jazz scene (Don Drummond, Roland Alphonso..). This eventually led to ska (my teen obsession)... rocksteady, then reggae - at which point (late sixties) the practise of removing vocals from a track, and toasting (sparingly) over the instrumental evolved - and soon this became almost exclusively the b-side of every 45 issued (for economic reasons) - the 'version'. Then U-Roy, in '69 began revolutionizing things by creating lengthy toasts, 'riding' the rhythm and paving the way for the younger djs in the seventies... meanwhile DUB developed further, more manipulation of the rhythm track, added effects, full albums being produced, 'ghosted' from existing tracks - deejays not necessarily a requirement.

But I think that Kool Herc's live twin turntable 'looping' or repeating the same portion of track for dancing was original to NY?

Also - House music began after Hip Hop - early eighties... (know nothing about it though - I just remember kids on the school bus listening to it and thinking it was rubbish )

Edited September 20, 2010 by cih

[Larry Kart]

But there is a segment of it, all of it "underground" that is vital, creative, and interesting to me as music.

Just curious -- why do you think that all of the segment that you find vital, creative, and interesting exists underground? Why does the larger community that must in some way give (and/or have given) rise to this segment of the music not have enough of a taste for this segment to make it a popular, above-ground thing? Where's the disconnect, if that's the way to put it?

[Noj]

Well, from what I understand the term "House Music" has come to mean something different from its original meaning, which was "whatever records were in the house at a house party." This yielded DJs playing around with the available records and manipulating them. At least that's how I heard it from my friend who was a Chicago DJ. Regardless of the sequence, it still speaks to DJs meeting the demands of the dance crowd.

[paul secor]

I don't think most people consider rap to be just a vocal style like scat before it or talking blues or vocalese. It's a musical genre. Tries to sell that way. To that end, I meant that the word "rap" will not have the cachet of the word "jazz". From 1920 to 1960, all sorts of musical styles such as swing, big band, be bop, cool, hard bop, soul jazz, free jazz, etc. have all tried to align themselves somehow with jazz, i.e. the music originally called jazz by the first people who called their music jazz in the 1920s. No way rap will carry that kind of prestige. Definitely NOT infinite number of musical genres coming out of rap. Not a single one yet in 30-40 years. A musical style as different from King Oliver as Sun Ra or Modern Jazz Quartet. Calling itself rap because the word "rap" is too cool to let go of? No way!

Not only do you not know what it is, you don't even know that there's something been happening here, do you, Mr. Jones?

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Sorry - Throwing out a cheap shot at someone & posting a You Tube link as a supposed backup to it doesn't cut it for me.

I'll remember that the next time I have something to say directly to you.

I assumed that if you were saying something only and directly to It Should be You, you would have sent him a PM. Since you posted it on one of the Forums, it becomes fodder for comment. Isn't that how things work here?

[JSngry]

But there is a segment of it, all of it "underground" that is vital, creative, and interesting to me as music.

Just curious -- why do you think that all of the segment that you find vital, creative, and interesting exists underground? Why does the larger community that must in some way give (and/or have given) rise to this segment of the music not have enough of a taste for this segment to make it a popular, above-ground thing? Where's the disconnect, if that's the way to put it?

Why do I think it? Because that's where I find it. Thanks to the internet, all you need are a few good pointers as to where to begin, a "go from here to here" sensibility (like you and I both probably used when we first started discovering jazz), and no compunctions against downloading podcasts and other free offerings of the music.

Where's the disconnect? Two reasons, imo -

1. To be blunt, this is the most mass-media-controlled time I've ever lived in, even with things crumbling around us as we speak. A good parallel might be movies in the early-mid 1950s (I wasn't born until 1955, so this is just a guess). The studio system was crumbling, but that's still where "everybody" looked for product. Same thing with music today - between the various entertainment programs, video saturation outlets, and the consolidation of broadcast outlets into a relatively few hands, this shit is as tightly controlled as it can be, and not just in this genre, either.
2. To be equally blunt, "popular taste" is about as dedicated to enthusiastic superficiality than I've ever seen it - and that's saying a lot. As with anything "underground", the real "art" in the "hip-hop culture" that I've come across (and I can't stress enough how not "plugged in" to this scene - underground and otherwise - I am. I just get exposed to it through the young-ish (i.e. - under-35, more or less) people in my life, of which right now there are quite a few) is tinged with an ambivalent melancholy that is quite antithetical to to the stereotypical uber-bravado of the cliche that the media plays to - and that the general public so willingly buys. In short - people are in denial. All kinds of people are in all kinds of denial. So has it ever been, but face it - the world is tumbling down, and not just everybody is ready, or will ever be read, to accept that and proceed constructively anyway.

The good news is that yeah, the industry is crumbling, and yeah, the "underground" is a lot more readily available, thanks to digital media and the propagation thereof. But yeah, you know it and I know it - at the end of the day, serious anything is always going to be a minority taste.

I don't think most people consider rap to be just a vocal style like scat before it or talking blues or vocalese. It's a musical genre. Tries to sell that way. To that end, I meant that the word "rap" will not have the cachet of the word "jazz". From 1920 to 1960, all sorts of musical styles such as swing, big band, be bop, cool, hard bop, soul jazz, free jazz, etc. have all tried to align themselves somehow with jazz, i.e. the music originally called jazz by the first people who called their music jazz in the 1920s. No way rap will carry that kind of prestige. Definitely NOT infinite number of musical genres coming out of rap. Not a single one yet in 30-40 years. A musical style as different from King Oliver as Sun Ra or Modern Jazz Quartet. Calling itself rap because the word "rap" is too cool to let go of? No way!

Not only do you not know what it is, you don't even know that there's something been happening here, do you, Mr. Jones?

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Sorry - Throwing out a cheap shot at someone & posting a You Tube link as a supposed backup to it doesn't cut it for me.

I'll remember that the next time I have something to say directly to you.

I assumed that if you were saying something only and directly to It Should be You, you would have sent him a PM. Since you posted it on one of the Forums, it becomes fodder for comment. Isn't that how things work here?

Directly to, but not only to. Like I said - duly noted and filed away for when/if needed.

Well, from what I understand the term "House Music" has come to mean something different from its original meaning, which was "whatever records were in the house at a house party." This yielded DJs playing around with the available records and manipulating them. At least that's how I heard it from my friend who was a Chicago DJ. Regardless of the sequence, it still speaks to DJs meeting the demands of the dance crowd.

Yep - house & hip-hop intersect at the DJ and have had considerable overlap in that regard.

DJ Spinna- house, hip-hop, or both?

Another, crucial factor in all this evolution that cannot be overlooked is the decimation of instrumental music programs in urban schools, especially in the "inner-city".

Edited September 20, 2010 by JSngry

[JSngry]

[cih]

The whole Hip Hop scene, actually, has to appear to be underground - spraying up walls etc - can that really be fully integrated, without killing it?

Edited September 21, 2010 by cih

[Big Wheel]

But there is a segment of it, all of it "underground" that is vital, creative, and interesting to me as music.

Just curious -- why do you think that all of the segment that you find vital, creative, and interesting exists underground? Why does the larger community that must in some way give (and/or have given) rise to this segment of the music not have enough of a taste for this segment to make it a popular, above-ground thing? Where's the disconnect, if that's the way to put it?

Isn't that simply the norm for the vast majority of great 20th century art, regardless of genre? Bebop was underground, the new thing was underground, Morton Feldman was underground, hell, rock 'n' roll was pretty underground at the beginning. And most things that start out underground stay underground - Cecil Taylor's music never erupted past the underground in my book. The only reason Cecil appears in jazz history textbooks and today's underground hip-hop doesn't appear in hip-hop history textbooks is that it's too early for most academic types to start in on analyzing the latter.

Genres get old and The Man ruins them. Jimi Hendrix --> Starship --> hair metal. Public Enemy --> most shitty contemporary hip-hop. Maybe the disconnect is that the big players of the music industry got so good at marketing that they suddenly realized they didn't have to focus at all at finding and distributing quality music. Any band, good or bad, would become the hottest new thing as long as they put enough marketing oomph behind it, so who cared if the bands were good or bad as long as the shareholders got their usual dividend every quarter? Yeah, eventually something bubbles up that changes things (like the way Seattle post-punk eventually killed hair metal), but the mass public only gets sick of bad music years after that music actually starts sucking - and chances are they would have gotten sick of it even if it were good.

Although Justin Bieber does sound all right if you slow him down 800%.

Edited September 21, 2010 by Big Wheel

[Tom Cat]

isn't this dubstep?

[Neal Pomea]

The whole Hip Hop scene, actually, has to appear to be underground - spraying up walls etc - can that really be fully integrated, without killing it?

I am sorry but the scene has appeared to be the most powerful thing, NOT the underground thing, for a LONG time, which is in part why I mock it.

Consider my position, hoping to keep alive French in Louisiana, when the young people there want to honor rap, the traditional music of Bronx and Brooklyn, instead of Louisiana's French music and language. It is Goliath, not David. Clear.

[JSngry]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=nvPGR0wPYU8

isn't this dubstep?

I don't know the terms...Afronaught is part of Bugz In The Attic, usually associated with "broken-beat", Afronaught has got some cool stuff going on...this one reminds me of Miles...

[cih]

The whole Hip Hop scene, actually, has to appear to be underground - spraying up walls etc - can that really be fully integrated, without killing it?

I am sorry but the scene has appeared to be the most powerful thing, NOT the underground thing, for a LONG time, which is in part why I mock it.

Consider my position, hoping to keep alive French in Louisiana, when the young people there want to honor rap, the traditional music of Bronx and Brooklyn, instead of Louisiana's French music and language. It is Goliath, not David. Clear.

I do appreciate your point - which is why I used the word 'appear' - the underground thing is often an illusion - as with gangsta rap

What you say about language just affirms what I said earlier - that 'Hip Hop' (which represents much more than just the music, at least as much as 'jazz') has had an enormous cultural impact, and I still think that the word 'rap' is not like the word 'jazz' as it is much more specific.

Edited September 25, 2010 by cih

[JSngry]

And I am not saying that hip-hop = underground, but rather that there is a "hip-hop underground", which foes indeed go towards how large the "movement" has become over the last 30 or so years, that it contains "strata", if you will.

30 years, by the way....when rock was 30 years old, it was 1985-86. Was anybody still arguing the lasting impact of rock in 1986?

30 years ago..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBgvwO-i6ls

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Another, crucial factor in all this evolution that cannot be overlooked is the decimation of instrumental music programs in urban schools, especially in the "inner-city".

They've never had instrumental music programs in urban schools in West Africa. And the governments that sponsored bands in the sixties and seventies fell to the World Bank. Most of the bands are young, not old guys (though there are some of them still about).

I'd think that your argument was special pleading, but I know you're not in the jazz education biz.

MG

[cih]

This short essay (by an 'insider') talks about the underground v commercial Hip Hop - also indicating the scope of the genre beyond just rap (and also mentions the devaluing of rap itself in favour of R&B singers)... b-boys.com

Since the early to mid 90’s, hip-hop has undergone changes that purists would consider degenerating to its culture. At the root of these changes is what has been called “commercial hip-hop". Commercial hip-hop has deteriorated what so many emcees in the 80’s tried to build- a culture of music, dance, creativity, and artistry that would give people not only something to bob their head to, but also an avenue to express themselves and deliver a positive message to their surroundings..

What does the term “commercial” mean? It can take on various meanings, but in essence that term is used to label artists who have alienated parts of the hip-hop culture in their work. The High and Mighty, a duo from Philadelphia signed to Rawkus Records, summed up what commercial hip-hop is in their 1999 single release “The Meaning”. Mr. Eon says: “…they’re tryin’ to turn hip-hop to just plain rappin’/let the poppers pop/and the breakers break…”

But the disenchantment with artists who don’t appreciate hip-hop as consisting of emceeing, breaking, graffiti art, beat boxing and dj-ing is not new. Underground artists, predominately hip-hop purists, have lashed out at biters and perpetrators for many years. For example, in 1989 3rd Bass released their first album, The Cactus Cee/D. Throughout the album, MC Serch and Prime Minister Pete Nice scold the commercialized booty shakers like MC Hammer for corrupting hip-hop, particularly on the track “The Gasface” they specifically call out Hammer for his antics...

Edited September 25, 2010 by cih

[.:.impossible]

Jazz will be just fine if people stop taking it so god damned seriously. Same with hip hop. Let it be. It is so much better that way.

Anyone with doubts ought to listen to D'Angelo Voodoo in its entirety. Hip hop at it's finest and there is zero rap or turntablism. Then find Dwele.

The new this or that. Dismiss it or accept it, but these folks talking about cop killing and misogyny shouldn't be involved in the conversation to begin with. Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

Someone with real knowledge on the subject, similar to some of y'all's knowledge on hard bop, wouldn't know where to begin with this discussion.

Like a bunch of interior designers analyzing contemporary architecture. If you don't understand it, you make the decision to either try, or not. Simple. Just say so.

[Big Wheel]

Anyone with doubts ought to listen to D'Angelo Voodoo in its entirety. Hip hop at it's finest and there is zero rap or turntablism. Then find Dwele.

Agreed - though there is indeed rap on Voodoo (the one track where Method Man and Redman guest, and although it's lewd it's also pretty awesome).

The story of how Voodoo was made is cool - it sounds like D'Angelo eventually wrote and performed most of the material himself, but it came out of this sprawling marathon where he and Questlove and others would often just play whatever struck their fancy, old 70s soul covers, you name it. Would love to see a DVD showing some of the more interesting moments.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Big Wheel

[JSngry]

Another, crucial factor in all this evolution that cannot be overlooked is the decimation of instrumental music programs in urban schools, especially in the "inner-city".

They've never had instrumental music programs in urban schools in West Africa. And the governments that sponsored bands in the sixties and seventies fell to the World Bank. Most of the bands are young, not old guys (though there are some of them still about).

I'd think that your argument was special pleading, but I know you're not in the jazz education biz.

MG

Point being simply that there was a fundamental change in the "tools" that were widely/generally available to the inner-city American youth, but not a correlative diminishing of creative energy or impulse. So instead of saxophones and trumpets, you get people starting to work with records and turntables, and practicing rhymes and flow instead of scales and arpeggios.

[.:.impossible]

Anyone with doubts ought to listen to D'Angelo Voodoo in its entirety. Hip hop at it's finest and there is zero rap or turntablism. Then find Dwele.

Agreed - though there is indeed rap on Voodoo (the one track where Method Man and Redman guest, and although it's lewd it's also pretty awesome).

The story of how Voodoo was made is cool - it sounds like D'Angelo eventually wrote and performed most of the material himself, but it came out of this sprawling marathon where he and Questlove and others would often just play whatever struck their fancy, old 70s soul covers, you name it. Would love to see a DVD showing some of the more interesting moments.

Yeah. I forget about that track for some reason. Not to mention the invisible hand of Dilla.

Have you heard this?

[cih]

Point being simply that there was a fundamental change in the "tools" that were widely/generally available to the inner-city American youth, but not a correlative diminishing of creative energy or impulse. So instead of saxophones and trumpets, you get people starting to work with records and turntables, and practicing rhymes and flow instead of scales and arpeggios.

Definitely - and also originally a manipulation of the current (early seventies) trend for providing music for dancing at discos and parties - re-introducing some element of 'live' creativity to the DJ... just as with the Jamaican sound systems, which had earlier replaced live bands because they were much cheaper, as were the 'versions' or mixes on the records of already existing rhythm tracks.

It was the proletariat taking control of the means of re-production. ho ho

Edited September 26, 2010 by cih