Can you or do you make a decent living as a jazz musician?

[Hardbopjazz]

I’m curious if someone today can make a decent living as a jazz musician.

Does it require you to also teach to make the bucks?

[Mr. Gone]

I’m curious if someone today can make a decent living as a jazz musician.

If "if someone" >= "one person" the answer is yes. Edited February 13, 2006 by Mr. Gone

[Guest]

Yeah, trick question, trick answer.

I assume that Kenny Barron makes a good living as a jazz musician. Most heavyweights I know who are doing well as a jazz musician, supplement their income significantly with something like teaching. Others work in music shops or something. I thought about starting a thread about a spin off question I have from this, but I won't hijack your thread with it.

I'm sure you know, if you're asking the question, it's tough to make it on gig money, but not impossible. If studio work in an option for you, that helps. I think that's limited on a heavy level to which market you're in and at that, I've been told that it's a very elite number of cats who get the majority of the studio work. But some people certainly do make it.

Even if you take someone like Christian McBride, technically some significant percentage of his income comes from his University job.

I predict that this will become a VERY LONG thread. I'll look forward to it.

You know, I'll expand the question to say "can you make a decent living for the rest of your life and then retire, as a jazz musician?" I've had my heart broken more than once seeing great players with all the gigs and students they needed later in life with health problems and no continued income without keeping at it past the point where they are able. Contributed to more than one of those benefits, knowing that it wouldn't be enough.

Edited February 13, 2006 by TroyK

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Yeah, trick question, trick answer.

I assume that Kenny Barron makes a good living as a jazz musician. Most heavyweights I know who are doing well as a jazz musician, supplement their income significantly with something like teaching. Others work in music shops or something. I thought about starting a thread about a spin off question I have from this, but I won't hijack your thread with it.

I'm sure you know, if you're asking the question, it's tough to make it on gig money, but not impossible. If studio work in an option for you, that helps. I think that's limited on a heavy level to which market you're in and at that, I've been told that it's a very elite number of cats who get the majority of the studio work. But some people certainly do make it.

Even if you take someone like Christian McBride, technically some significant percentage of his income comes from his University job.

I predict that this will become a VERY LONG thread. I'll look forward to it.

You know, I'll expand the question to say "can you make a decent living for the rest of your life and then retire, as a jazz musician?" I've had my heart broken more than once seeing great players with all the gigs and students they needed later in life with health problems and no continued income without keeping at it past the point where they are able. Contributed to more than one of those benefits, knowing that it wouldn't be enough.

Johnny "Hammond" Smith appears to have done the whole thing; retired and had a good retirement on investments in real estate. He was teaching, but I understand that was more because people wanted to learn how to improvise than because he needed the money.

I reckon Maceo Parker, Pee Wee Ellis and Fred Wesley are making a living purely through playing music (though Pee Wee does some arranging for other musicians/singers).

Houston Person is working the whole time; booked up six-seven months ahead. Whether he actually needs the cash he may get from producing other people's records for HighNote, I don't know. He doesn't produce many sessions, as far as I can see, so that can't be an important element of his income; sure as hell, Joe Fields wouldn't pay much.

My guess is that people like Lonnie Smith, Ronnie Cuber, Reuben Wilson, Mel Sparks, Cornell Dupree are able to make a living out of just playing. I'm sure none of them have extra-curricular activities.

I think maybe the question should have explicitly referred to musicians who don't care about entertaining the public.

MG

[mikeweil]

If it wasn't for my dear wife's regular income and then fact I inherited a house and don't have to pay rent, well ...... I'd have to run after every possible job and teach a lot more than I do. I think in Germany there always was only a handful of jazz musicians that could make a living on gigs only, the late Albert Mangelsdorff was one of them. All others did teach or write/play for radio and/or tv or have a regular big band job etc. I was struggling for the last few years, but now with a new band that is running well I made almost 1.000 EURO last month only by playing concerts, which is good for a sideman. But this is an exception. This month it will be only half that much ....

[Guest]

I think clearly, like with acting, painting and what-have-you the top (1-10%) make a great living. Is the question below that upper crust?

My wife is a journalist and you'd be surprised how little journalists can make. Big market network news anchors are making really great salaries, the people you likely get most of your news from are compensated more in the range of retail/hourly wage up to teacher's salary.

[DTMX]

Non musician here, have supported many musician friends in the past...

Two quotes I always liked:

If you want to make money in music, sell band uniforms - Henry Mancini

If you want to starve, play the blues. If you want to starve to death, play jazz - Some guy I can't remember

[Rosco]

Depends what you call 'living'.

[JSngry]

Short answer = yes, but only with a lot of hustle, some good breaks, and a damn good business sense.

Longer answer = same as the short answer, but with the added qualification that times have changed and continue to change, which means that there's fewer quality gigs to go around, and stiffer competition for them. Also factor in the fact that the market for live music that commands the type of audience that can sustain consistently good-paying jobs continues to shrink.

You can either live on the road, build a following, and parlay that into something bigger, or you can stay in one spot, network like a genius, and create a profitable niche for yourself among bandleaders, contractors, industry honchos, festival promoters, etc. But that's about it. The days of being able to make a passable living just doing club dates and recording sessions (jazz ones, that is, and truthfully, the "commercial" studio scene ain't what it used to be either) are rapidly drawing to a close.

[Hardbopjazz]

So what I've gathered so far, it seems you need to supplement yourself in some other way, other than just doing gigs. Spouses that work help a great deal.

[fasstrack]

I’m curious if someone today can make a decent living as a jazz musician.

Does it require you to also teach to make the bucks?

I mostly teach and my last years of paying dues are finally seeing dividends. (Plus, I like it. Tremendously). Would that the same were true for my playing and composing career. But I keep at it, because the wound sustained falling on my head as an infant never really healed

I've rarely made any money from jazz, though when I worked I did and played with people I respected and situations I enjoyed. So I can't complain. But realistically, jazz is a thing primarily of enjoyment now. But because I always wrote music and my soul is as much or more there as playing I'm pushing ahead with that professionally now. I believe in it and feel there's a market. The world needs good songs and someone has to write new ones. (plus the teaching leaves plenty of time to write and play) So, again, jazz ditties/charts, etc. I'll continue to write for my amusement, for a gig where something would go good, or if someone else asks me.

But the short answer is: yes, sure do teach.

[Guest]

And I think a lot of it depends on your versitility. I have a friend who is a piano player and plays in Nordstrom (Dept Store) during the day. Gets a regular pay check, health insurance and a store discount. Plays jazz gigs at night and releases his own CDs. That's tough to do as a trumpet player, drummer or bassist.

Wedding bands playing top 40 covers from the ages make good money if they hustle, but that's not what people usually mean when they ask this question, because it's not what they want to do.

Most people I know (aforementioned piano player not withstanding) who make a comfortable living as a local musician get a substantial percentage of their annual income from some other source, usually teaching.

I question that I've always wanted to throw out is, what is the cultural distinction of that second income that makes us as a musician community start to consider someone a working hobbiest vs a pro?

Ex:

100% of income from gigs and studio work = Pro Musician

100% of income from non-music source, get together with friends to jam = Amateur Musician

50/50% income from playing music and teching private students....Pro Musician, I think.

50/50% playing music and dj'ing on the local jazz station

x% from playing x% from teaching music at a high school.....?

x% playing x% from buying and selling instruments on ebay?

50% playing and 50% some unrelated retail job?

20% playing and 80% some non-descript non-music related 40/hr week job?

What is it that makes us stop considering someone a pro? Is it how much of their income? How much of their time? What their second job is? What if someone was a lawyer, now consults 15-20 hours a week on legal issues and gigs several nights a week?

Just curious, I think we tend to really reward people for "having more skin in the game", meaning struggling by refusing to do something to take the financial pressure off of themselves.

But, in anwser to the original question: Yes, there are people who make it strictly on playing. It depends a lot on you, what you need to live on, the market you live in, the instrument you play, your talent, the degree to which what you do reaches people, luck. I submit that sustaining that living over the course of your lifetime is a much more difficult endeavor, but not impossible.

I have nothing but respect for people sweating it out and making it. I hope I didn't imply otherwise. Mucho Respecto.

-tk

Edited February 14, 2006 by TroyK

[mikeweil]

Another quote, this time from composer Jean Sibelius:

"The only people with whom you can talk about music are bank directors. Musicians always talk about money!

Edited February 14, 2006 by mikeweil

[Kari S]

I assume that Kenny Barron makes a good living as a jazz musician.

Yeah, well even for him the "success" has come only during more recent times (like, let's say a decade or so). Now he's touring all over the world and probably making a good buck along the way. But things haven't always been so.

[.:.impossible]

I think there are too many variables here. I think the biggest one is location. Where do you live? You can rip through the most difficult of tunes, sight read like you're eating alphabet soup, and have been composing for three or four horns since you were a teenager, but you live in Iowa. That's going to be tough, even though you've mastered every reed instrument you've been able to get your hands on.

I think the second biggest one, also dependent upon the first in ways, is what do you play? If you play guitar, for instance, in a town full of guitarists, you are going to have a lot more competition for the gig.

How dedicated are you? If you don't eat, shit, breathe music, chances are the bassist across the river does. He's going to get the gigs you dreamed of when you first started going at it.

My brother makes his living solely on music. Yes, he teaches privately to supplement the money he makes on gigs, but he has never had any other job. Crazy to think about, considering I started working when I was fourteen. Thing is, it sometimes seems like I have more free time than he does. If I want to make a road trip and take a few days, or a long weekend, I can just do it. He, on the other hand, has too many commitments. He has to find a sub for three or four days worth of gigs, reschedule lessons, and hope that a band gig doesn't pop up unexpectedly on short notice like they so often do. Bands don't accept subs...