Dave James Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 The sound on "Cornbread" is fine, but if you've been without it this long, there's probably no reason not to wait for the RVG. Of course, there are no guarantees that the RVG will make this a better sonic experience or that it won't be several years before BN gets around to redoing it. I guess the other thing to consider is that as time goes by, the McMaster will become harder to find. I doubt they're pressing any more of those, although I could be wrong. Up over and out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul Stream Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 To be honest, the difference to me between a recent McMaster and an RVG is negligable. I mostly like the new liners and pics. Plus at $8.99, I can't really pass them up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceH Posted February 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 The sound on "Cornbread" is fine, but if you've been without it this long, there's probably no reason not to wait for the RVG. Of course, there are no guarantees that the RVG will make this a better sonic experience or that it won't be several years before BN gets around to redoing it. I guess the other thing to consider is that as time goes by, the McMaster will become harder to find. I doubt they're pressing any more of those, although I could be wrong. Up over and out. Get it. You know you want to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Man, I bust my ass to get 'em to finally correct the composer credit on 'Trapped', and then they go and attribute 'The Gigolo' to Jule Styne and Sammy Cahn. I'm so pissed off right now I can't see straight! Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montg Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 I picked the RVG up recently--I LOVE this session. I'm surprised to see negative comments about the sound, I had the opposite reaction, thinking it's one of the best RVGs I've heard. Billy Higgins lays down such a wonderful groove with those shimmering cymbals...this is what Blue Note is all about to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 This is my favorite Lee along with "Search for the New Land" and "Cornbread". "Tom Cat" is quickly creeping up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottb Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 As most of you know, my personal campaign to the get The Gigolo RVG 'd is the main reason we can compare the two versions. I was / am disappointed with the results however. On my system and to my ears and yada yada... the overall recording sounds better to me. (If you don't remember, I am a fan of the RVG sound.) The things I like about the RVG sound are: 1) The bass is much sharper and actually audible. Bass solos are actually heard and not mistaken for the end of the song or the malfunction of my player. 2) More high end which translates to more pop in the snare and shimmering cymbals. The problem with The Gigolo is that these clearer highs and lows result in Morgan's trumpet losing it's bite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris olivarez Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 As most of you know, my personal campaign to the get The Gigolo RVG 'd is the main reason we can compare the two versions. I was / am disappointed with the results however. On my system and to my ears and yada yada... the overall recording sounds better to me. (If you don't remember, I am a fan of the RVG sound.) The things I like about the RVG sound are: 1) The bass is much sharper and actually audible. Bass solos are actually heard and not mistaken for the end of the song or the malfunction of my player. 2) More high end which translates to more pop in the snare and shimmering cymbals. The problem with The Gigolo is that these clearer highs and lows result in Morgan's trumpet losing it's bite. Scott I didn't own this one prior to the RVG so I have nothing to compare it to but it still sounds pretty damn good to me. Thank you for campaigning for this one and selling me on this wonderful cd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottb Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 I hope you don't take me seriously when I take credit for this release. You did see the "wink" right? If I had any say at all, it wouldn't have been three years to be released and we would have an RVG of Back to The Chicken Shack to listen to as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 has anyone ever ever seen lee live in concert? i wonder how much of his sets were based on his current albums n stuff- like did he ever do cornbread live n stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 An excellent question. It is my understanding (from Cuscuna among others) that a lot of of the great tunes from the Blue Note albums were never performed live, probably because the bands on the records were assembled specifically for the session and not working units. There are exceptions of course, such as Horace Silver's groups. As a result, the live gigs usually did not include music from the records because the sidemen did not know them, and these groups didn't get to rehearse all that much. When I get to speak to some of the guys from this era, I try to ask about the repertoire from the live gigs as part of my research on jazz copyrights. Most of the time they don't remember (it has been 40 years or so). However, recently I was told that one musician (when shown my listing of unrecorded Lee Morgan songs) remembered playing some of them. I have not spoken to him directly yet, but I need to follow up on this. To answer your question specifically, I never saw Lee live of course, but the few live gigs from that era don't feature too many of the repertoire from the records. Off the top of my head, there's 'Ceora' and 'Sidewinder' on the two Lighthouse releases, and they play Mobley's 'Chain Reaction' (and call it 'The Vamp') on the Lee Morgan Live In Baltimore '68 Fresh Sound CD, but it's Clifford Jordan (not Mobley) on that date. I would love to hear from our board members who heard Lee live. In fact, I know a few people who saw him - I'll follow up. Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 Wish I had heard Lee Morgan in the '60s but never had the chance But I spent several evenings at the Club Saint-Germain when he played there with Blakey's Messengers in 1958. The proceedings were recorded for RCA France and were released on 3 well-known LPs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umum_cypher Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 Pick-up groups playing pick-up music. (By and large: "Sidewinder every set"). That's how I understood it. The situation changed after 1968 though. Something in the book - clears throat - about this sort of thing. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 But sometimes it could got the opposite way. Larry Ridley remembers that when he played with Wayne in the Roy Haynes group, they would play Wayne's Blue Note compositions. He specifically mentioned 'House Of Jade'. The band played at the Left Bank Jazz Society (1966?), but if there is a tape, I haven't been able to track it down. Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umum_cypher Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 But sometimes it could got the opposite way. Larry Ridley remembers that when he played with Wayne in the Roy Haynes group, they would play Wayne's Blue Note compositions. He specifically mentioned 'House Of Jade'. The band played at the Left Bank Jazz Society (1966?), but if there is a tape, I haven't been able to track it down. Bertrand. What's that got to do with the price of fish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 In post #36, I took the discussion beyond Lee Morgan. I'm interested in the general question of live repertoire from 60s Blue Note related bands. In the case of the Haynes group with Shorter, they did use repertoire from the records. In the case of Morgan, we have little evidence of this, although I personally have not asked too many of the musicians from that period. Have you? Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umum_cypher Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 In post #36, I took the discussion beyond Lee Morgan. I'm interested in the general question of live repertoire from 60s Blue Note related bands. In the case of the Haynes group with Shorter, they did use repertoire from the records. In the case of Morgan, we have little evidence of this, although I personally have not asked too many of the musicians from that period. Have you? Bertrand. And it's an interesting interest. My thesis - and this really applies less to Lee than to others - was that the more the BN composers departed from standard models/ chorus forms etc, the less ad hoc bands could wing it with that new repertoire; combined with a general downturn in live playing opportunities in the late-60s for jazz in general - and with fewer units being able to stay together, work often, develop a group repertoire/identity - that probably meant that "jazz" was in some ways bound to seem like it was stagnating stylistically. What do you think about that. [The scare quotes are not in the lets call it black classical music sense, but in the can we really talk about so many divergent incidents/patterns of music making in such a general sense sense]. Lee was still doing standards, bebop tunes and the simpler of his own blues-based tunes at that time. I talked to those in his later bands about the new repertoire, and Lee's changing attitude towards composing [poss copyright implications here]. The pickup pool (Mobley, Higgins, F Mitchell, Sproles, M Jackson) have essentially departed. But talking to Lee's friends, those pick up bands sounded a bit sad (relatively speaking - I'd cut my ears off to have heard one of those bands). The Left Bank recording may well be a reasonable indication of what was going on. Not to be too positivist about it - but I know you wouldn't mind that [Not long before he died John Hicks was talking about releasing tapes of him and Morgan playing live during this period]. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 Actually, in person, Lee would play tunes he had recorded. As mentioned at the Lighthouse set he played SIDEWINDER, SPEEDBALL and on a bootleg tape from that session he did a killer version of CROQUET BALLET from THE LAST SESSION LP. He also would play CEORA and other signature tunes. It wasn't like he would play a "greatest hits" session but he would intersperse familiar tunes with new tunes and songs written by members of his band. Lee had a working band and didn't rely on pick-up musicians who didn't know his music. If you would like to find out more about his live performances you should ask musicians like Harold Mabern and Bennie Maupin who were in Lee's bands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umum_cypher Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 Actually, in person, Lee would play tunes he had recorded. As mentioned at the Lighthouse set he played SIDEWINDER, SPEEDBALL and on a bootleg tape from that session he did a killer version of CROQUET BALLET from THE LAST SESSION LP. He also would play CEORA and other signature tunes. It wasn't like he would play a "greatest hits" session but he would intersperse familiar tunes with new tunes and songs written by members of his band. Lee had a working band and didn't rely on pick-up musicians who didn't know his music. If you would like to find out more about his live performances you should ask musicians like Harold Mabern and Bennie Maupin who were in Lee's bands. Yeah, but that's what was happening in the last two bands, as I mentioned earlier. These working bands were post-68. From leaving Blakey in 65 to that time he was playing with whoever. The time you're talking about, he was working regularly with a regular unit, and there was definitely a solid repertoire consisting of new stuff and old faves. But that's different. Advice noted. Interviews with bandmembers Mabern, Roker, Merritt, Harper are in my book. [Not sure about this Lighthouse bootleg you mention - that's a Harper tune, and the recorded/argued over Lighthouse/Both-And stuff was with Maupin... they did a return to LA in 71 when Harper was in the band. Was this from that trip?] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 (edited) [Not sure about this Lighthouse bootleg you mention - that's a Harper tune, and the recorded/argued over Lighthouse/Both-And stuff was with Maupin... they did a return to LA in 71 when Harper was in the band. Was this from that trip?] The boot I'm speaking of was recorded at the Lighthouse with Maupin. My friend recorded it and also went to an Ali closed circuit fight during that engagement with Mabern and Morgan. Also, I don't remember the question about Lee's live repertoire being specific to pre '68 or post '68. Edited January 12, 2007 by Cali Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umum_cypher Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 Harper tune in a Maupin band hey - that's interesting. Also, I don't remember the question about Lee's live repertoire being specific to pre '68 or post '68. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 That was not the original question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umum_cypher Posted January 13, 2007 Report Share Posted January 13, 2007 That was not the original question. Yeah, but they call it a thread. Keep up, veteran groover... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris olivarez Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 I hope you don't take me seriously when I take credit for this release. You did see the "wink" right? If I had any say at all, it wouldn't have been three years to be released and we would have an RVG of Back to The Chicken Shack to listen to as well! Serious or not you raised my awareness of "The Gigolo and I thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Just remembered another one: Harold Mabern's 'The Chief' was recorded for the unissued session from 9/13/68 (three tracks from this date are now bonus tracks on the Sixth Sense CD, but not 'The Chief'). This piece was done live at least once, since it appears on the Fresh Sound Lightouse set. Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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