David Williams Posted August 18, 2003 Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 And I hear what you're saying. I think I'll continue to experiment with the programming: I've never been one for bothering with that before. I'll spend some more time with it in the Minorcan sun. Glad you brought this one up, Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:.impossible Posted August 18, 2003 Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 Me too! My "listening to" list reads Miles 66-68 all the way down right now! Thanks Al. Excellent choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted August 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pryan Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 I haven't listened to these albums in a while but this ensemble is one of my very favorites (eventually I'm going to HAVE to have that Plugged Nickel box). I think I enjoy NEFERTITI slightly better, although I'm sure my opinion could change. When first getting into jazz, I listened to a lot of Miles, and the 60s quintet was one group that I focused on the most. What blows me away (and others in this thread, obviously) is Tony Williams' work. "Hand Jive" (the master and two alternates) is a perfect example: Tony just playing so much, trying to get the soloists to reach new heights. "Riot" simply burns and is perhaps closer to hearing the group live than most of the other cuts, or maybe not. BTW, what's up with the inclusion of "Nothing Like You"? I never understood that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 BTW, what's up with the inclusion of "Nothing Like You"? I never understood that. I don't think that ANYBODY ever has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Christmas Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 Hey now, I KNOW I posted in this thread a few days ago but can't find it! The abridged post: - my favorite record by this group - Shorter *owns* Nefertiti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Dye Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 I am a bit late to this thread, (In fact, I'm late to this whole AOW thing. I have been enjoying the comments, even though I have not participated yet) but this morning, I happened to find a cassette with Nefertiti on one side and Miles Smiles on the other. I popped in Nefertiti and hit the highway. I have about a 45 minute commute, so I figured I could listen to the whole album this morning. I must say, the title track still gives me goosebumps every single time I listen to it. Such a unique concept with the horns repeating the theme leaving Herbie, Ron and Tony room to stretch out. My favorite part is when the horns lay out for a verse (stanza?, round?). Everything gets quiet as Herbie lays down each chord. Then all of a sudden BA-BOMP! BA-DA-DA-DA-DAT-DA-DAT-DAT. You can hear the drums race across the studio ceiling. It's just so f***ing cool. Well, after I listened to the first track, my cassette deck started to malfunction. The right channel kept popping in and out. So, I had to take the tape out. I'll try to participate in the next one, guys. Nice choice, Big Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 Don't really know how or where to start with this one... Ok - my first exposure to NEFERTITI was as a freshman in college. I had just begun to get into the Second Quintet, only in reverse album order, intentionally (long story...). Started with FILLES, LOVED IT (still might be my "favorite" Miles record, period), then a few months later bought MILES IN THE SKY. Now THAT'S a weird-ass record! I didn't love it, and still don't - it's not a "love me" type record. At all - the lion's head in Miles' crotch kinda telegraphs THAT message. But I did dig it, and still do (btw, has anybody ever noticed how there's a section in "Country Son" that is almost an exact replica of the framework used for "Ssshh/Peaceful"? I've never seen that "officially" noted anywhere, but I think it's of intrest historically. But I don't have this stuff on CD, except for FILLES. So maybe somebody's picked up on it by now. Surely Belden has. If he hasn't, the muffukker needs to give me a gig ). Anyhow.... It's the beginning of the second semester, January, 1975, and I'm going w/a buddy to check out speakers. We go into this little joint in Denton, a real dark, musty, thick-but/and-dirty-carpeted covering warped wooden floors, padded-wall, coulda'-been-a-hippie-pad-probably-was-only-now-it's-a-college-town-stereo-shop-big-difference-right? kinda place. We'd just walked in when all of a sudden, this music started playing, a long sinuous melody made all the more sinuous by the fact that the hornd were just a little bit out of sync with each other. I recognized the band, but not the album, so I stopped checking out equipment and started focusing to the music (never a bad idea, really). Well...o...k...THIS is getting interesting....Can't wait to hear the solos.... Uh...What about the solos....DAMN this is getting INTENSE....uh...the solos... SHIT!!! Oh, here's a chorus without a theme statement, must be solo tiAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!! Hooooolllllyyyy fuuuuccckkkkinnn' SHIT. Well, on comes "Fall". The mindfuck continued, to put it mildly. I was loving every minute of it too. Finally I said to the guy running the stoer, "WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS?" He said nothing, just handed me the cover. It's autumnal colors matched the music perfectly - quiet, in the process of withdrawing from the heat, yet still full of bright, defiant blazes, blazes that let you know that even if the music was "going inside", psychologically speaking (a feeling visually reinforced by the grainy B&W back cover), that it was still full of life and that it WOULD be back, eventually, and in an equally spectacular blaze of new color (FILLES, anybody?). Of course, between Fall and Spring, there's Winter, and if MILES IN THE SKY ain't "Winter" then God didn't make little green apples, and it don't rain in Indianapolis in the summertime. By the time "Hand Jive was underway, I just said fuck this and walked the mile or so from the stereo shop to the record store, spent $4.98 (+ tax), went home, and surrendered. I could talk about this music in more technical terms, or even/especially historical terms - how I no longer hear it the same way now that I've hear a fair amount of what the same band was doing live at about the same time, which was kinda the same thing, only kinda totally not, if that makes any sense. Yeah, I COULD talk about that, and more (don't get me going on the album cover thing...), and someday no doubt will. But that's not the FIRST thing I think about when I think of NEFERTITI. The first thing I think about is having just turned 19, beginning to live in a world of seemingly unlimited options, and going into some dungy stereo shop and having "seeming unlimited" take on a whole new meaning. That and buying a new LP for $4.98 that still plays wonderfully, one that I still have, and one that I hope to always have. Permanent change and permanent permanent, the new becoming the old without ever becoming old. The thrill of discovery and the discovery of the thrill. Those were the days. May ALL our days be like them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted August 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 (edited) My favorite part is when the horns lay out for a verse (stanza?, round?). Everything gets quiet as Herbie lays down each chord. Then all of a sudden BA-BOMP! BA-DA-DA-DA-DAT-DA-DAT-DAT. You can hear the drums race across the studio ceiling. It's just so f***ing cool. You got THAT right! Hope you can offer more commentary! Last comment edited out: Messr. Sangrey posted while I was posting. THANKFULLY!!! Now I'll go back and actually READ it! Edited August 19, 2003 by Big Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 DAMN! I thought you alread had! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted August 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 I did now! Holy shift!!! I'm not worthy!!! You're right Belden should call you: I'm gonna print that out and format it to fit in my CD jewel tray. That little blast of brilliance SHOULDA been the liners to this album! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul Stream Posted August 22, 2003 Report Share Posted August 22, 2003 (edited) Has "mainstream" jazz ever got over Miles' second quintet? It seems like they pretty much took things as far as they could go. The best young jazzmen today hold these albums by Miles second great quintet deep in their hearts and imaginations. The concept seems to take acoustic jazz to it's logical conclusions...after the elasticity of this jazz concept, there's only the fusion with rock/funk/soul/world music/noise/hip hop/ect. to explore. In short, are these lps the apex of modern mainstream jazz? I guess that's not a new idea, but it's a conclusion of pretty much reached. Wynton thought he was hip playing this stuff 15 years after the fact, and the "young lions" still do. And you know what, they're right in a way. Because you can't really get any HIPPER that this stuff. Edited August 22, 2003 by Soul Stream Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 22, 2003 Report Share Posted August 22, 2003 Yet, the irony is that this band was pretty much overlooked by the mainstream in its time. Maybe not as a club/concert/festival attraction (hell, it was STILL MILES DAVIS!!!), but those records did not have a broad appeal. I was struck in my colege years how few people had them, and I'm talking about music majors, jazz majors, people who were not uniformed as to who the individual. Plenty of people had the Wayne & Herbie BNs, and plenty of people had Miles up until, say, Seven Steps or FOUR AND MORE, and most everybody had at least one electric MILES album and PLENTY of electric Herbie & Weather Report. But the Second Quintet was almost a mystery band, a band and a music that people knew existed (the records were in all the store, but just decided to avoid for whatever reason. There was a handful, a VERY small handful, of cats who were hip to this stuff, and not coincidentally, most of them are still active in creative music today. One guy, an arranger named Paul Holderbaum, had a rehearsal band that I played in, and I distinctly remember hanging at his crib one night (1978 or so), playing poker and drinking, etc, while side one of NEFERTITI played over and over in the background. Paul stopped for no reason at all and said, You know, we're listening to this now like it's so hip, but in 10 years, it's gonna be like bebop is now." Well, I was skeptical, but I see now that he was right, even if his prediction came true a lot quicker than he had anticipated. What caused this turnaround in public appreciation? It's easy yo point to the first Wynton/Branford band, but I think there's more to it than that. I think it's the Japanese Pluggged Nickel albums. I've written in the past about how hot an item those things were in certain circles, how they became cult favorites, ultimate symbols of hipness, years before Columbia released them in America on LP, and MANY years before the PN Box came out, here OR in Japan. Couple that with the very real sense of excitement over the first VSOP band, and you have a groundswell of interest that finally exploded when Wynton's band first hit. Some people were saying, "Hey, it's just a rehash of '60s Miles", but just as many, if not more, responded by saying, "I've never really checked out '60s Miles." Now, like you say, that stuff is VERY "mainstream", at least among musicians. But it weren't always so! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockefeller center Posted August 22, 2003 Report Share Posted August 22, 2003 (edited) btw, has anybody ever noticed how there's a section in "Country Son" that is almost an exact replica of the framework used for "Ssshh/Peaceful"? Are you talking about the bass line (Country Son - 06:00'...)? Edited August 22, 2003 by rockefeller center Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockefeller center Posted August 22, 2003 Report Share Posted August 22, 2003 No, you must be referring to the 10:07 - 10:11/Country Son. Thanks for pointing this out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted August 22, 2003 Report Share Posted August 22, 2003 (edited) Flash to 1989/90. My first exposure to "Nefertiti" (and "Sorcerer" too, for that matter) -- were among the very first full jazz records I ever heard, after I had taken a Jazz 101 music appreciation course during my (was it?) Junior year of college. I didn't really get bitten by the 'jazz bug' (yet) during the course itself, and not for several months after. I think that the only full jazz LP's I actually listened to that semester, were a handful of Sun Ra LP's that my uncle had, plus what few Ra albums I could find at the college radio station. (I did my final paper for the class on Ra.) I didn't know shit (yet) about classical music (and especially not about 20th Century classical music) at that point, to say nothing of my total lack of experience listening to jazz, so needless to say, I approached the Ra material with VERY wide eyes. But I digress... It wasn’t until about 6 months later, when a friend (who was a little deeper into jazz than I was, who was also in the same class) offered to make a tape for me of KoB, and "some other cool Miles" on the b-side. I said "sure!!", and the tape I got from him had "Nefertiti" on the b-side, with the opening track from side one of "Sorcerer" tacked on the end (the 'bad-ass-tune-if-there-ever-was-one' tune "Prince of Darkness"). During the summers, and during breaks, my buddy worked for this really hip used CD store up in Chicago. So he had these two (Nefertiti and Sorcerer) on CD from JAPAN - and only come to find out later that neither one had been released in the U.S. on CD by that point. (Those were the first-ever Japanese CD's I had ever seen, now that I think of it.) Anyway, I played that tape (KoB/Nefertiti) over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again - probably 75 times in first 50 days, and 100 times in the next 50 days!!! Put it on as my live-in-girlfriend and I went to sleep, and when we woke up ---> so it was on all the fuckin' time (and all the fuckin’ time too, as I recall ). But I digress... Didn't hear (or even hear of) Wynton, or VSOP, or any of that stuff until at least a couple years later, long after I had already gotten a good-sized dose of the real deal first (thankfully!!). But even back then, as I started getting more tapes of stuff like "Miles Smiles" and "E.S.P.", I was totally struck at how late 60's Miles (prelectricity) just DIDN'T register on anybody else’s radar in my circle of music-friends. Like NONE of the other 'jazz-heads' in college (musicians, mostly - though I was never a jazz musician myself), how practically NONE of them were even barely aware of this shit. They were all about Parker, and Clifford Brown, and Monk, and Coltrane, and Mingus, and pre-1964 Miles - especially stuff like "Milestones", and "Miles Ahead". THAT was the hip shit to them, and 'mid' and 'late' 60's Miles was still just "weird shit" to them, by and large. Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers was the blueprint to them, and "Nefertiti" didn’t fit that blueprint, so they didn’t know what to make of it. Same thing with the relatively young director of the jazz program at this college (small liberal-arts college in upstate Illinois), and he was barely 10 years older than we were, so he was like in his early 30's I think. He loved "classic" late 50's jazz, and that's what the program was all about (seemingly from all the tunes ever played by the college jazz combos, in concerts or in the one bar in town that would host a regular 'jazz' night (Thursday nights), with mostly college students playing, plus a few cats from town (SMALL town - 35,000 people nothin' even the slightest bit bigger for well over 60 miles in any direction). But the really "hip shit to him (the jazz program director at the college), was stuff like The Brecker Brothers. Yeah, that's right, 'jazz-funk', along with a little nasty 'jazz-fusion' was what he sorta thought was the really hip shit to talk about, when anyone wanted to know about "where jazz was really going". (Or at least when jazz was still 'going somewhere', which in his mind - it no longer really was. He was clueless about M-BASE I think, for instance. Or when I brought some of that up to him, he nodded, and said "yeah, that stuff's great", but didn't seem to have any real idea what it was.) As I recall (and/or as near as I could tell), he could appreciate "Bitches Brew" and "Jack Johnson" on some level, and he really liked "Nefertiti" and "Sorcerer" in a sort of academic way. But it was like that music was on some creative plane that was outside the 'space-time-jazz' continuum for him. Come to think of it, I think "Fall" was the example that he used of that band, for the listening material in that "Jazz 101" class. Now "Fall" is a beautiful tune, but that tune (and that tune alone, in a vacuum) sure as hell doesn't give anyone any kind of idea about what that band was really up to. I think maybe he was afraid something like "Riot", just might start one. Come to think of it, though, if I ever taught a jazz course today (which I'd love to do someday!!!!), I'd love to play the early Miles version of "Round Midnight" from Milestones, and then play the live version of Miles from November 6th, 1967 - as a way of contrasting these bands. But I digress... Edited March 24, 2004 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted August 22, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2003 Digress on, man!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted August 26, 2003 Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 I think I was channeling Sangry for a minute there. ( And whenever I write a big, long post that I'm really proud of, I always think I'm channeling a bit of Sangry. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 26, 2003 Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 Dude, as long as you got the gift, you should really set your sights higher! But hey, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted June 9, 2005 Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 A few things that are really cool with this album: * the beginning of Wayne's solo on "Fall" -- beautiful * Herbie's solo on "Madness", which starts as sort of a collective improv for the piano trio, then you have Tony prompting the band back into brisk walk. * "Riot" is unusual -- they could do "compact" too. Totally different from how the band approached this tune live. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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