Brief Parker/Gillespie clip from '51 (

[Stereojack]

all seriousness aside, it is a mistake to read current-day attitudes/realities/perceptions to a show that's over 50 years old, and Jack is certainly right (and Chan, with all due respect, is not always a great source in this respect; more than one of her observations on these days has turned out to be inaccurate) - Wilson is trying to be a hep-cat, from what I can determine, and any draft on stage there is probably more related to Bird and Diz's sense of what a square he was -

That's how I see it. To form an opinion based on what I see in this clip and what I know about all of the people in it is not to deny that racism was/is inherent in our culture. I just think that it is possible to see things that are not necessarily there, just as the John Birch Society saw Communism under every rock. You (fasstrack) bring to this clip what you feel you know about our society, and you attempt to qualify your observations by informing us that you are Jewish, which I guess makes you a bigger expert on bigotry than me. Sorry, I'm not buying it, man. Why not just stick to the facts as they are presented in this clip, and not read into it all that has happened in the ensuing years?

[Jim R]

I'm clueless

[fasstrack]

(Yawn)

Any black people care to comment and give the real inside skinny? Last comment from me on this.

[Jim R]

No black person has the "inside skinny" on this particular debate. The point here is that this specific discussion is about opinions as to the severity (or lack thereof) of the behaviour of one man in this one film clip. That's all it is- it's about our perceptions about how he comes across. He may very well have been a racist bastard, but that's not exactly the point. As I said, I don't claim to know one way or the other if I'm right. On the other hand, you do, and in addition you had to get rude about it. Maybe if you read the whole topic again, you'll understand better. Jack said it very well, and I'm not sure why you can't accept what he's saying as a reasonable opinion. In other words, there's no way you're going to prove you're right on this, so what's the point of preaching at us?

[Chuck Nessa]

What Jim R said.

[fasstrack]

In other words, there's no way you're going to prove you're right on this, so what's the point of preaching at us?

What's the point of taking it that way? It wasn't intended like that. I also was never rude and took pains to say any dissenting opinion is as valuable (or meaningless) as mine. I see where this is going, has gone, and it's not important for me to be right, just to point out what's obvious to me. Sorry if you were offended. I'm outta this discussion but will read the opinions of black musicians especially who might have been around then and can teach us all about these things/

Let's all have a nice day. And let's all lighten up. Please.

Edited May 25, 2006 by fasstrack

[Jim R]

Will some black people please come on this thread and straighten these nice and well-meaning but, sorry-to-say clueless (on this issue) people out?

Seemed rude to me, especially since the disagreement was about something subjective. The "point" was to defend myself while attempting to get you to understand that there's really no need to lecture anybody here (regardless of skin color- and by the way, you DON'T KNOW what color I am) about racism. You still don't seem to get it, but whatever.

I'll now open the floor to all of the black musicians here who were around in 1952... Why, I'm not sure, but take it away...

(Just milkin' this a bit... I accept your apology). Peace~

[Chuck Nessa]

No need to respond "fasstrack" but I do suggest you revisit any number of threads you have posted in and justify your claim "I also was never rude....". You don't need to justify them publicly, just consider them internally.

[fasstrack]

No need to respond "fasstrack" but I do suggest you revisit any number of threads you have posted in and justify your claim "I also was never rude....". You don't need to justify them publicly, just consider them internally.

Opinioned and at times intentionally provocative, yes, rude no, at least not intentionally. Manners are very important to me and I try not to cross the line with personal attacks. If anyone feels bad I feel bad. I've had some real sickos dump on me on the Web in language and visciousness that makes anything I ever wrote or read here or anywhere else seem like Sunday School teachers' importunings. I'm still here and sort of like the way I choose to express myself. I can take the heat because I know I use strong language and will sometimes get as good as I give. And I do listen and learn from anyone with anything intelligent to say.

The Internet is a weird place to debate or even discuss things. A lot of misunderstandings and even ill will crop up because IMO it's a very limited and atomized mode of communication. You can't hear a voice or see a face and a lot of the subtelty of 'actual' conversation is lost. And people, myself included, do take things personally. Plus, the honor system that's sort of in place can be subverted by all kinds of people who lie, steal identities, etc. That's why Branford Marsalis's forum eventually closed, and he did a valiant job of believing in democracy and peoples' ability to sort things out. This place is eminently civil by comparison, the people are by far the most knowledgeable about jazz I've encouintered on the web, and I will continue to post and just lurk and read here.

I saw what I saw in that clip and people reserve the right to disagree. However IMO not to see the larger issues exposed there re the patterns that have cropped up vis a vis race and treatment of jazz musicians on commercial TV is to suffer from tunnel vision. But anyone who thinks I read too much into it is entitled to think so and prove their points in the tradition of civil discourse. I'm listening.

[JSngry]

That's Earl, brother!

[fasstrack]

That's Earl, brother!

[mrjazzman]

I think everyone knows mrjazzman is a black man and the music is my blood coming from my father(Elmon Wright) , grandfather(Lamar Wright Sr.), and uncle(Lamar Wright Jr.-check out their bios on AMG). Don't know if that qualifies me to speak. Someone asked a black man to speak so here goes. In the intro clip I saw two white men, one seemed very intelligent and sincere while the other came across as a pompous, silly(not funny) ass. Today 50 years later there are white people like Wilson and there are white people like Feather, there are black people like Wilson and there are black people like Feather, and chinease people and mexican people and on and on and on.............get my point? This is America.........

Edited May 28, 2006 by mrjazzman

[fasstrack]

I think everyone knows mrjazzman is a black man and the music is my blood coming from my father, grandfather, and uncle. Don't know if that qualifies me to speak. Someone asked a black man to speak so here goes. In the intro clip I saw two white men, one seemed very intelligent and sincere while the other came across as a pompous, silly(not funny) ass. Today 50 years later there are white people like Wilson and there are white people like Feather, there are black people like Wilson and there are black people like Feather, and chinease people and mexican people and on and on and on.............get my point? This is America.........

[JSngry]

Didn't Bird so a guest spot on Jerry Lester's Broadway Open House? "Almost Like Being In Love"?

Seems like I remember reading about that somewhere.

[medjuck]

The double cd set of Max Roach and Dizzy dueting in in Paris has an interview in which the 2 are shown this performance. Dizzy can't remember the drummer's name at first. He does notice that he's left handed. And neither of them recognize the bass player. But then Max says the drummer is Charlie Smith who was a brilliant young man who became a lawyer.

[mrjazzman]

fasstrack,

You asked a Black man to speak, a Brother spoke, resulting in silence since the 27th..............

[baltostar]

That's why Branford Marsalis's forum eventually closed, and he did a valiant job of believing in democracy and peoples' ability to sort things out.

i thought Branford did a brilliantly self-centered job of using his forum to settle old scores in his favor. old scores misconstrued, misunderstood, taken out of context, all of the preceding ... or just beyond his comprehension. preaching to the converted it was easy.

[fasstrack]

That's why Branford Marsalis's forum eventually closed, and he did a valiant job of believing in democracy and peoples' ability to sort things out.

i thought Branford did a brilliantly self-centered job of using his forum to settle old scores in his favor. old scores misconstrued, misunderstood, taken out of context, all of the preceding ... or just beyond his comprehension. preaching to the converted it was easy.

You're writing in generalities. Who, where, what, why? And I never saw that at all. If anything it was quite the opposite and he was way too permissive, and not only with critics of his own work or person. In 4 years of that forum he only got into it with one particularly irksome asshole and only after quite a lot of baiting by said asshole. He removed one thread where a guy called Hitler 'the best chef in Europe'. He let a lot of stupidity by some stupidity mongers fly and never took sides in the many 'wars' that broke out, preferring to let the idiots hang by their own idiotic ropes. In the end people took advantage of his egalitarianism by finding holes in the site's buggy software (which couldn't trace IP addresses) to literally steal the identities of musicians of some repute and start racist and other inflammatory threads. His name being on the forum, a new son, and other events conspired to have him evidently say 'screw this. Who needs it?'. He will reopen, he has said.

Having said that, many people (myself, who was openly and loudly critical of him re the above and other things, absolutely included) were treated very well by Branford and also got gigs and made lasting friendships as a result of that forum. My occasional email relations with him remain very cordial and the ones I have received have been helpful and supportive of me, a person he has met exactly once and for less than 5 minutes.

So, if you would, spell out what you mean by 'did a brilliantly self-centered job of using his forum to settle old scores in his favor'.

Thank you in advance.

Edited May 30, 2006 by fasstrack

[fasstrack]

fasstrack,

You asked a Black man to speak, a Brother spoke, resulting in silence since the 27th..............

Is that like 'In Search of the 27th Man'?

Or was I just barking up the wrong tree? Guess I was.

[bichos]

hello all,

here is an article from 1948 by mr. earl wilson that speaks for itself:

http://birdlives.co.uk/zoom/Itemid,116/pag...1/key,10/hit,1/

keep boppin´

marcel

[fasstrack]

hello all,

here is an article from 1948 by mr. earl wilson that speaks for itself:

http://birdlives.co.uk/zoom/Itemid,116/pag...1/key,10/hit,1/

keep boppin´

marcel

Ha. It really does speak for itself. Don't fall over yourselves all apologizing at once, guys (I love this).

Wilson's racism, condescendingness, his fascination with what he took to be his own intellect, and other appealing qualities were self-evident on the tape. And, as I said, Bird nailed it and Wilson's sorry ass in one sentence, and with one look.

What cracks me up is the video is some 3 years after the none-too-funny doggerel of his article. But did the Broadway Sage catch up one iota to what every musician knew was important and great? Like I said, he was a low-rent Winchell wannabe, a Broadway hustler that landed in a newspaper. What a self-important windbag.

Edited June 26, 2006 by fasstrack