Archie Shepp - Black/Blue Ballads

[BeBop]

I've been on a Shepp 'kick'. Mostly the small group stuff: duos to quartets. These two (Black Ballads/Blue Ballads) look appealing, but they're relatively pricey, so I thought I solicit opinions...knowing full-well that SOMEONE is going to go out and tell me to buy IMMEDIATELY at ANY COST. Okay, maybe not.

[JSngry]

Well. I only have Blue Ballads, and I don't know about immediately, but if you're on a Shepp kick, then sooner than later would be advisable. It's gorgeous.

[BeBop]

I just really dig what Shepp does with 'standards' - broadly defined. Gospel stuff. Soulfully rendered. A reminder that IT'S ALL THE BLUES.

"Make Me a Pallet on the Floor", "Goin' Home", "Trouble in Mind".

[jlhoots]

I've been on a Shepp 'kick'. Mostly the small group stuff: duos to quartets. These two (Black Ballads/Blue Ballads) look appealing, but they're relatively pricey, so I thought I solicit opinions...knowing full-well that SOMEONE is going to go out and tell me to buy IMMEDIATELY at ANY COST. Okay, maybe not.

Here you go.

Get 'em both immediately at any cost.

[JSngry]

His readings of the ballads on this album are some of the most ravishingly devastating work he's ever done.

[BeBop]

Anyone seen a good price? Black Ballads is just $14.00 at Tower; Blue Ballads seems to be $22+ just about everywhere.

[Kreilly]

His readings of the ballads on this album are some of the most ravishingly devastating work he's ever done.

I find most of Shepp's work to be blasé since his late 60s Affinity recordings. Those 60s Impulse recordings are classic, I find it hard to imagine that anything he's done in the past 10 years is essential and can stand up to his 60s work.

[JSngry]

Blue Ballads is a Japanese side on Venus. Black Ballads is on Timeless, IIRC. Thus the price difference.

Of course, the differences in covers justifies the higher price...

[BeBop]

His readings of the ballads on this album are some of the most ravishingly devastating work he's ever done.

I find most of Shepp's work to be blasé since his late 60s Affinity recordings. Those 60s Impulse recordings are classic, I find it hard to imagine that anything he's done in the past 10 years is essential and can stand up to his 60s work.

I like his 60s stuff too. One might say he's turned from more-angry to more-deeply soulful. Both are alright. I pull out the older material when it suits my mood.

[JSngry]

What you find often depends on what you want to look for.

Shepp's a significantly more subtle and nuanced ballad player now than he was in the 60s. I love his 60s work as much as anybody (and perhaps more than many), but ballads of the type he plays on this album can't help but benefit from the broadened perspective of life experience (including learning more about the subtleties of playing melody and changes), and Shepp brings that increased life experience to the table as openly as he brought his political passions to the table in the 60s. If love, life, and money don't turn you around every now and then and make you reconsider some shit as time goes by, well, that ain't much of a life if you ask me.

So yeah, if you're looking for "angry" tenor or something like that, this stuff might well sound "blase". But if you're looking for soulful, nuanced, mature ballad playing that goes straight to the heart and speaks of and to a mature life, hey - it's definitely here.

As our Fearless Flyer implies, it's all good to me when it is in fact all good. And Blue Ballads is exactly that.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I have "Blue Ballads", "True Ballads" and "True Blue" on CD. I havne't played them in a while but from I recall, they all have some great playing but Shepp's embrousure might bother some listeners. It can sound sour in places, with vibrato, almost like he can't hit the note right. A weak sound? I don't know. Some days I really dig it and others I just have to switch discs. My wife & daughters don't like his sound at all. Every time I put him on they comment that they don't like it.

And I'd rather he didn't sing.

Kevin

[Dan Gould]

Sounds like its fair to say that Shepp has mellowed somewhat like Pharoah Sanders and I suspect these are two releases I should seek out. Can't get into the "angry tenor" era but deeply felt ballads with Horace Parlan sounds right up my alley.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I have "Blue Ballads", "True Ballads" and "True Blue" on CD. I havne't played them in a while but from I recall, they all have some great playing but Shepp's embrousure might bother some listeners. It can sound sour in places, with vibrato, almost like he can't hit the note right. A weak sound? I don't know. Some days I really dig it and others I just have to switch discs. My wife & daughters don't like his sound at all. Every time I put him on they comment that they don't like it.

And I'd rather he didn't sing.

Kevin

I was beginning to get fired up about this; been meaning to have another go at Shepp. But does he really sing on these records?

MG

[Dave James]

I have two of the three Shepp CD's that have been mentioned, "Blue Ballads" and "True Ballads". Indeed, he does sing on some of the tunes on both of them and neither is the better for it. Like James Moody, he doesn't have an unpleasant voice, but it's really unecessary. I distinctly recall listening to these for the first time and when I realized he sang, whenever a new tune would start, I would say to myself, geez, I hope he leaves this one alone.

FWIW, my favorite of the Shepp ballad efforts is "Ballads for Trane". Here, he tends to his knitting, i.e. no vocals.

Up over and out.

[BeBop]

What you find often depends on what you want to look for.

Shepp's a significantly more subtle and nuanced ballad player now than he was in the 60s. I love his 60s work as much as anybody (and perhaps more than many), but ballads of the type he plays on this album can't help but benefit from the broadened perspective of life experience (including learning more about the subtleties of playing melody and changes), and Shepp brings that increased life experience to the table as openly as he brought his political passions to the table in the 60s. If love, life, and money don't turn you around every now and then and make you reconsider some shit as time goes by, well, that ain't much of a life if you ask me.

So yeah, if you're looking for "angry" tenor or something like that, this stuff might well sound "blase". But if you're looking for soulful, nuanced, mature ballad playing that goes straight to the heart and speaks of and to a mature life, hey - it's definitely here.

As our Fearless Flyer implies, it's all good to me when it is in fact all good. And Blue Ballads is exactly that.

Thank you. Well said.

Sounds like its fair to say that Shepp has mellowed somewhat like Pharoah Sanders and I suspect these are two releases I should seek out. Can't get into the "angry tenor" era but deeply felt ballads with Horace Parlan sounds right up my alley.

Mellowed? Matured? Wisened? The stuff with Parlan is very good. Each has a loose theme, i.e., spirituals. Pick one with song you know and like, sine they all have standards and most have blues. (There's also a disc with, I believe, Richard Davis, that's good.)

I have "Blue Ballads", "True Ballads" and "True Blue" on CD. I havne't played them in a while but from I recall, they all have some great playing but Shepp's embrousure might bother some listeners. It can sound sour in places, with vibrato, almost like he can't hit the note right. A weak sound? I don't know. Some days I really dig it and others I just have to switch discs. My wife & daughters don't like his sound at all. Every time I put him on they comment that they don't like it.

And I'd rather he didn't sing.

Kevin

I was beginning to get fired up about this; been meaning to have another go at Shepp. But does he really sing on these records?

MG

He certainly sings on the Mal Waldron duos. It' somewhere between James Moody and Clark Terry singing the blues, but he takes himself more seriously than either. Bad description, but the best I can muster.

[Kreilly]

What you find often depends on what you want to look for.

Shepp's a significantly more subtle and nuanced ballad player now than he was in the 60s. I love his 60s work as much as anybody (and perhaps more than many), but ballads of the type he plays on this album can't help but benefit from the broadened perspective of life experience (including learning more about the subtleties of playing melody and changes), and Shepp brings that increased life experience to the table as openly as he brought his political passions to the table in the 60s. If love, life, and money don't turn you around every now and then and make you reconsider some shit as time goes by, well, that ain't much of a life if you ask me.

So yeah, if you're looking for "angry" tenor or something like that, this stuff might well sound "blase". But if you're looking for soulful, nuanced, mature ballad playing that goes straight to the heart and speaks of and to a mature life, hey - it's definitely here.

As our Fearless Flyer implies, it's all good to me when it is in fact all good. And Blue Ballads is exactly that.

I know you put "angry" in quotes but I don't hear anger as much as I hear passion. A ballad can be full of passion as well. I'm not a fan of Shepp's singing and it's his playing that doesn't work for me anymore, particularly his soprano playing. After 1969 I find that his recordings "miss" more often than hit. I do have, and somewhat like, "Ballads for Trane" but that is an exception. I think there's little doubt that his post 70s catalog is uneven and he suffers from him being over-recorded. The parallel to Pharoah works in some ways but thankfully Pharoah doesn't croon.

[JSngry]

Well yeah, "uneven" is putting it mildly. But recognizing that and making a blanket dismissal are two different things...

[Kreilly]

Well yeah, "uneven" is putting it mildly. But recognizing that and making a blanket dismissal are two different things...

Saying that I find most of Shepp's post 60s work to be blase is not exactly a blanket dismissal, in fact it was purposely understated. Much of it is awful to my ears but I prefer not to venture so negatively into such subjective hotbeds like taste. If 100 jazzers made a one disc compilation of "essential" Shepp, what percentage of the selections would be from the past ten years? what percentage would be Shepp on vocals? on soprano? You get my drift. I'm not saying that nothing is worthwhile just that there have been enough clunkers that I've largely given up on him. He hasn't been interested in the improvisational style of music that I prefer for over 35 years! Once your expectations have been lowered, a decent record may seem much better than it would otherwise.

There are few artists whose work keeps my interest through the course of their careers. Bob Dylan, Roscoe Mitchell, Henry Threadgill, Tom Waits, Myra Melford. Shepp doesn't make that list.

[David Ayers]

Whoah! He sings on any of those Venus records?? Please tell me which so I don't buy any by accident! What I would like is a ranking order for the Venus's. Which is supposed to be the best? Also does anybody have those Marion Brown Venus's?

[paul secor]

Anyone looking for some first rate post 1990 Archie Shepp should try Tenors of Yusef Lateef and Archie Shepp (YAL) - fine playing by both men, and it sounds as if they enjoyed playing together. Shepp's playing since about 1980 has been erratic, to say the least, but his playing on this CD shouldn't disappoint any fans of his early recordings.

P.S. - No vocals on this one.

Edited July 24, 2006 by paul secor

[JSngry]

Saying that I find most of Shepp's post 60s work to be blase is not exactly a blanket dismissal...

No, but saying that

I find it hard to imagine that anything he's done in the past 10 years is essential and can stand up to his 60s work

comes pretty close....

As for that "essential" compilation, I for one would leave room on it for "Blue In Green" from Blue Ballads, as well as a few Steeplechase duet things w/Parlan & a cut from a mid-70s album on Marge he did w/Joe Lee Wilson. In fact, I could easily make a full disc of "essential" post-60s Shepp, if one's intent ws to show him at the top of his form over the course of his career. I'll even say that no matter what the era, Shepp's been a wildly inconsistent player. Not all of the Impulse! work is gold by any stretch of the imagination.

(And exactly what are we talking about anyway - the last ten years, or post-1960s? There's a huge difference, especially since he spent the better part of the mid-late 70s churning out album after album that documented his coming to grips with change playing. Those are for the most part some dire documents indeed, and it's not until later in the 70s, when he finally got over that hurdle, that things started to come back around. And then you got the embochure issues of the latter years which slowed him down both musically and professionally.)

If you don't really care for most/all of his post-60s work, hey, no problem. To each their own. But to say that there's a lack of "passion" to even the best of it is, to me, to suggest a definition of "passion" that fits a preconceived notion, a notion that perhaps doesn't give waht I would consider to be the necessary consideration to all the various changes wrought by time. Because afaic, if Shepp was still playing in 2006 like he played in 1966, he'd sound really stupid. That was then, this is now. If 40 years of life doesn't do something to a man, hey, whazzup with that? And if you can't deal with those changes in a meaningful way and give their own validity, what good does it do to live that long?

No, Shepp's inconsistency has been there from the git-go, and it'll most likely be there until the end. I'm not about to claim otherwise, nor am I going to defend all the lackluster, rambling work he's done (from any period). What I will claim is that when Shepp is on, he's capable of some deeply moving playing. That was true in 1966, and it's true in 2006, even if the "style" of playing now might bear but a superfical resemblence to that of then.

Unless, of course, one chooses to define substance in terms of style, in whole or in part. That's one's perogative of course, but it's not something that I myself particularly care to do.

[JSngry]

Anyone looking for some first rate post 1990 Archie Shepp should try Tenors of Yusef Lateef and Archie Shepp (YAL)...

From as recent as 1999, there's the Delmark side he made w/The Ethnic Heritage Ensemble. He's obviously hampered by the embochure issues, but nevertheless works with and around them to deliver some deeply felt, highly focused playing. There ain't that much there, but what there is is serious.

Yeah, he sounds like an old man. But hell - when you get right down to it, he always sounded like an old man, at least in spirit. Now that he's becoming one (69 as we speak), it seems all the more appropriate...

[Kreilly]

Saying that I find most of Shepp's post 60s work to be blase is not exactly a blanket dismissal...

No, but saying that

I find it hard to imagine that anything he's done in the past 10 years is essential and can stand up to his 60s work

comes pretty close....

As for that "essential" compilation, I for one would leave room on it for "Blue In Green" from Blue Ballads, as well as a few Steeplechase duet things w/Parlan & a cut from a mid-70s album on Marge he did w/Joe Lee Wilson. In fact, I could easily make a full disc of "essential" post-60s Shepp, if one's intent ws to show him at the top of his form over the course of his career. I'll even say that no matter what the era, Shepp's been a wildly inconsistent player. Not all of the Impulse! work is gold by any stretch of the imagination.

(And exactly what are we talking about anyway - the last ten years, or post-1960s? There's a huge difference, especially since he spent the better part of the mid-late 70s churning out album after album that documented his coming to grips with change playing. Those are for the most part some dire documents indeed, and it's not until later in the 70s, when he finally got over that hurdle, that things started to come back around. And then you got the embochure issues of the latter years which slowed him down both musically and professionally.)

If you don't really care for most/all of his post-60s work, hey, no problem. To each their own. But to say that there's a lack of "passion" to even the best of it is, to me, to suggest a definition of "passion" that fits a preconceived notion, a notion that perhaps doesn't give waht I would consider to be the necessary consideration to all the various changes wrought by time. Because afaic, if Shepp was still playing in 2006 like he played in 1966, he'd sound really stupid. That was then, this is now. If 40 years of life doesn't do something to a man, hey, whazzup with that? And if you can't deal with those changes in a meaningful way and give their own validity, what good does it do to live that long?

No, Shepp's inconsistency has been there from the git-go, and it'll most likely be there until the end. I'm not about to claim otherwise, nor am I going to defend all the lackluster, rambling work he's done (from any period). What I will claim is that when Shepp is on, he's capable of some deeply moving playing. That was true in 1966, and it's true in 2006, even if the "style" of playing now might bear but a superfical resemblence to that of then.

Unless, of course, one chooses to define substance in terms of style, in whole or in part. That's one's perogative of course, but it's not something that I myself particularly care to do.

I don't necessarily disagree with this, at least not in spirit. I never suggested that Shepp's best post 60s work is lacking in passion. But The whole 40 years thing misses the point as far as I'm concerned. I think that when all is said and done Shepp's contribution, historically, will be his 60s work. In contrast, someone like Roscoe Mitchell has been pushing the envelope and challenging himself consistently since 1966's Sound. Shepp on the other hand has seemingly moved on to other things. This does not mean I'm simply dismissing Shepp's post 60s work. Many people may derive a great deal of pleasure from it, that's great. Roscoe is like Faulkner, even his lesser work and failures are of interest. Roscoe's work reflects 40 years of growth as well but there a consistent committment to innovation and experimentation that Shepp seems to have left behind. A knowledgeable someone told me earlier this evening that Shepp has been plagued by serious mouth/dental problems that play a role in much of this. We do clearly disagree on what constitutes essential Shepp. The Rolling Stones have made some interesting music over the past 25 years, some of it is very good, but in my view, none of it is essential Stones. That's how I see Shepp.

Edited July 25, 2006 by Kreilly

[JSngry]

Fair enough, although I'd submit for consideration the thought that from their respective beginnings, Roscoe was first and foremost an explorer whose voice was the semi-secondary byproduct of his searching, that Shepp was first and foremost a voice whose innovations were the semi-secondary byproduct of his developing that voice, and that in that regard, things are still as they were at the beginning.

As they almost inevitably are.

[jlhoots]

I don't believe that the CDs (late era Shepp) under discussion should be missed over the "singing" by Shepp of which there isn't much.