*** Frank Zappa ***

[Big Wheel]

[7/4]

That's nice. After all, it's not like Zappa had this keyboard player in the band who was an equally capable improviser or anything. Good thing he made sure to excise that hack's shitty solos so those who are more metal Zappa than me don't have to put up with them!

It's OK not like every Zappa album, they're not all my favorite album.

Because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and, doggonit, people like me!

[sgcim]

You don't know what you're talking about. Zappa had some of the finest keyboard players in modern music.

George Duke, Tommy Mars, Don Preston, Peter Wolf, Allan Zavod, etc...

Another interesting keyboard player Zappa had in the MOI for a short time was Bob Harris in 1971. In Zappa circles he is called Bob Harris(1), because Zappa had another Bob Harris in the 1980s (Bob Harris(2)).

Bob Harris(1) was on the Fillmore LP (the "Vaudeville" Band), and has a good Wurlitzer solo on "Billy The Mountain" from Playground Psychotics.

I got interested in BH(1), because he did most of the arr. for Judee Sill's sublime first LP. They were married for a few years, and lived in a 1950s Oldsmobile for a while(!)

They were both life-long junkies, so that didn't help their careers, but I acquired a tape of him at a session in N.Hollywood, and he was a straight-ahead bopper, highly influenced by the Detroit jazz scene. He toured with Ray Charles for a few years, arranged for The Friends of Distinction and played with Gabor Szabo.

[Scott Dolan]

As a fellow Zappa fan I have to say that if you like every single thing Zappa did, there may be something terribly wrong with you.

He made a ton of great music, but he also made quite a bit of not-so-great-to-bad music.

Shut Up is a masterpiece, IMO. Yet Guitar is nearly a snoozefest....

[7/4]

Ditto on Guitar, but I never really put the time into it.

Trance/Fusion is another guitar album.

Edited March 16, 2013 by 7/4

[Scott Dolan]

Haven't heard that one yet. From what I've heard from others it's pretty decent. Is that your impression?

Has a lot of stuff from the abbreviated/meltdown '88 tour which IMO he was playing some of the best solos he ever played. Fire And Chains, the solos from Hot Plate Heaven and Cruisin' For Burgers...

I think the biggest downfall of Guitar is the period the majority of the songs came from. The early 80's were a serious mixed bag for him as both a composer and musician.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Scott Dolan

[7/4]

Ditto on Guitar, but I never really put the time into it.

Trance/Fusion is another guitar album.

Haven't heard that one yet. From what I've heard from others it's pretty decent. Is that your impression?

Has a lot of stuff from the abbreviated/meltdown '88 tour which IMO he was playing some of the best solos he ever played. Fire And Chains, the solos from Hot Plate Heaven and Cruisin' For Burgers...

I think the biggest downfall of Guitar is the period the majority of the songs came from. The early 80's were a serious mixed bag for him as both a composer and musician.

Gotta dig it out and listen to it again. In fact...time to listen to all three of these again.

I've had Shut Up.. since the beginning as an import and I remember it had some golden moments.

[StarThrower]

The Guitar CD probably has too much material. There is some great stuff, and some OK solos. Trance Fusion is pretty weak to my ears. Most of the solos are from the '88 tour, and FZ's guitar playing was not on the same level as earlier days.

FZ was writing and playing some amazing stuff in the early 80s. Compositions including Drowning Witch, Moggio, Sinister Footwear, the orchestral scores for London Symphony.

[Quincy]

FZ was writing and playing some amazing stuff in the early 80s. Compositions including Drowning Witch, Moggio, Sinister Footwear...

Indeed! I was so fortunate to see him in Nov. '81 where he played all 3. It was mind-frying. He had just cut back on performing most of You Are What You Is from a month earlier and so I think the more open setlist invigorated his playing.

[Scott Dolan]

My point being that it simply was his weakest era. Tinseltown Rebellion isn't very good, The Man From Utopia, Baby Snakes, Perfect Stranger, Jazz From Hell, are really weak albums. Ship Arriving Too Late To Save a Drowning Witch and You Are What You Is are really strong, But Them Or Us is spotty. Meets The Mothers of Prevention has the outstanding What's New In Baltimore, and the very good I Don't Even Care, but aside from that is just another synclavier throwaway album...

When compared with what he was writing and playing from the late 60's up to that point it's pretty difficult to not note the weakness.

And I've never heard anyone that felt his playing on the '88 tour was anything less than brilliant. To each there own, of course.

Edited March 17, 2013 by Scott Dolan

[7/4]

Obviously not a fan of Zappa's synclavier music. I think it's brilliant.

[Scott Dolan]

It's OK, but I have to really want to listen to it. I much prefer hearing him play guitar to programming a machine.

I even prefer the version of G-spot Tornado that was performed by Ensemble Modern.

[Д.Д.]

Well, I also believe that FZ's solos from the '88 tour are among his least interesting. I mean, they are cute, but less diverse and adventurous, and more likely to rely on the same licks and hooks than his older ones. Listen to SUNPYG "Inca Roads" solos, any of the four, and to the "Inca Roads" solo from "The Best Band..." back-to-back for comparison. The later version is sedate and boring, IMO.

Actually, Zappa himself alluded in the Real Frank Zappa Book that his guitar playing in '88 was not his best. I find that his solos became better by the end of the tour (the one from "Outside Now" from his last '88 concert in Genoa, heard on "Broadway the Hard Way" is fantastic... "After Dinner Smoker" off "Trance-Fusion" from the same concert is also excellent), it's a shame the tour did not continue.

"Guitar" album has a much better flow in the LP configuration, which is 13 tracks shorter. The sequencing is excellent, making the overall listening experience much more pleasurable. While I like SUNPYG more as an album, "Guitar" has some of my favorite FZ solos. And I just love his '84 guitar sound (even if I hate the overall sound of the '84 band.. but then again, Scott Thunes is excellent...).

As for the '80s FZ, there is a lot of dross there, for sure. I just hate YAWYI, and most of "Them or US". And don't even mention "Thing-Fish". However, I consider "Jazz from Hell" to be among FZ's very best. To each his own, indeed.

[StarThrower]

It's OK, but I have to really want to listen to it. I much prefer hearing him play guitar to programming a machine.

I even prefer the version of G-spot Tornado that was performed by Ensemble Modern.

I would never describe the compositions on Jazz From Hell as weak. Pieces like Night School, and Beltway Bandits are beautiful to my ears. And the guitar piece, St. Etienne is probably one of the finest recorded solos from the 80s that I've heard. This performance was filmed, and parts of it are on the Video From Hell VHS release.

[Scott Dolan]

Well, I also believe that FZ's solos from the '88 tour are among his least interesting. I mean, they are cute, but less diverse and adventurous, and more likely to rely on the same licks and hooks than his older ones. Listen to SUNPYG "Inca Roads" solos, any of the four, and to the "Inca Roads" solo from "The Best Band..." back-to-back for comparison. The later version is sedate and boring, IMO.

Actually, Zappa himself alluded in the Real Frank Zappa Book that his guitar playing in '88 was not his best. I find that his solos became better by the end of the tour (the one from "Outside Now" from his last '88 concert in Genoa, heard on "Broadway the Hard Way" is fantastic... "After Dinner Smoker" off "Trance-Fusion" from the same concert is also excellent), it's a shame the tour did not continue.

"Guitar" album has a much better flow in the LP configuration, which is 13 tracks shorter. The sequencing is excellent, making the overall listening experience much more pleasurable. While I like SUNPYG more as an album, "Guitar" has some of my favorite FZ solos. And I just love his '84 guitar sound (even if I hate the overall sound of the '84 band.. but then again, Scott Thunes is excellent...).

As for the '80s FZ, there is a lot of dross there, for sure. I just hate YAWYI, and most of "Them or US". And don't even mention "Thing-Fish". However, I consider "Jazz from Hell" to be among FZ's very best. To each his own, indeed.

Thing-Fish has its moments, mostly due to Ike Willis himself. I don't love it, or hate it.

You Are What You Is was my first Zappa album, so that may be why it holds a special place in my heart. JCB belting out Harder Than Your Husband remains one of my faves in the Zappa universe.

I also share your overall distaste with the sound of the '84 band. Too much synth, and Wackerman's electronic drums. That said, my favorite front line is White/Zappa/Willis. And his solos from that tour are fantastic. The one from Advanced Romance (YCTOSA Vol. 3) is one of his very best, IMO.

And once again, I think Fire And Chains, Heavy Duty Judy, and the solos from Outside Now, Hot Plate Heaven At The Green Hotel, and Cruisin' For Burgers from the '88 tour are among his best. Not that every solo he played from that tour was better than the 19xx tour.

Edited March 17, 2013 by Scott Dolan

[StarThrower]

As for the '80s FZ, there is a lot of dross there, for sure. I just hate YAWYI, and most of "Them or US". And don't even mention "Thing-Fish".

To my ears, You Are What You Is features a brilliantly sequenced collection of very catchy and challenging pop/rock tunes. And FZ's guitar playing was at it's stylistic and technical zenith before he switched gears and adopted the custom strat w/ locking tremolo bar. His playing on Sinister III is pretty astounding.

Them Or Us is a mixed bag, but I like it for the instrumentals and extended guitar solos. I always loved his doo-wop covers, so The Closer You Are is a favorite.

Both of these albums feature fantastic vocal performances. I never did buy a copy of Thing Fish.

[Scott Dolan]

The Closer You Are is one of his most beautiful songs. Even my wife likes it, and she hates everything Zappa.

Sinister Footwear is good, but it would have been nice to hear more Zappa and a little less Vai on the album.

And without any perceptible provocation I suddenly have the urge to hear his tune ending solo from Come From Nowhere...

[StarThrower]

I was surprised the '88 band didn't perform Marqueson's Chicken from Them Or Us. The head of the tune is brilliant, with some tricky guitar lines that Mike Keneally could have played. And then it modulates to a swinging groove for the solo section, which would have sounded great with the horns.

[Д.Д.]

I was surprised the '88 band didn't perform Marqueson's Chicken from Them Or Us. The head of the tune is brilliant, with some tricky guitar lines that Mike Keneally could have played. And then it modulates to a swinging groove for the solo section, which would have sounded great with the horns.

They did, it just was not released officially.

[Д.Д.]

"The Closer You Are" is great, but it does not provide any new inside compared to the original by Earl Lewis & the Channels:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsiN4vXspbM

Edited March 17, 2013 by Д.Д.

[StarThrower]

^^^^

Thanks! Maybe it was never performed to FZ's satisfaction?

[Scott Dolan]

I take it most of the folks commenting in this thread are musicians?

[StarThrower]

^^^^

I'm a former hack guitar player and drummer. I could never dream of playing high level stuff like Zappa.

[Д.Д.]

I take it most of the folks commenting in this thread are musicians?

I am not.

[GregK]

Zappa's synclavier music is definitely not "throwaway", as someone above put it. Civilization Phase 3 has some of most interesting compositions, a lot of which he wouldn't have even tried with real musicians.

I really like Trance-Fusion. Most of it is from the '88 tour, which featured some of this best guitar tone; the soloing sounds great, even when at times it isn't particularly interesting. I'd say his soloing from '88 was his best since the late 70s.