Jazz Is Alive...

[Guest youmustbe]

To each their own crap, but yeah, computers, samplers all that to the younger generation seems to be 'musical instruments'.

[JSngry]

To each their own crap, but yeah, computers, samplers all that to the younger generation seems to be 'musical instruments'.

Why shouldn't they be? And why shouldn't there be an esthetic built around their usage? And why shouldn't that esthetic be built around truly timeless principles like color, contrast, rhythmic sensitivity & interaction, all that good stuff? And why is a generation or more of "real musicisians" leaving it to these musicians of today to figure this stuff out on their own, and then talk trash when it they don't? If you don't raise your kids, they'll raise themselves, and whose fault is it if you don't like how they turn out?

Face it - unless you're singing and.or using your body as a drum, any instrument is a machine (and a case can be made that even the voice is a machine). It will only do what the player makes it do, and what the player makes it do is going to be based on what the player knows and is capable of imagining. When you get right down to it, a bad sample is no different than a bad trumpet solo, and a bad loop is no different than a bad arrangement. Either way, it's a failure of skill and imagination.

If Ellington could imagine and make manifest that glorious orchestral sound, and if Zawinul could do the same w/synths, then there's absolutely no reason why somebody can't/won't do the same w/computers/samples/drum machines/etc. No reason whatsoever. Anybody who's interested in the nurturing of the human/creative spirit should be looking for ways to bring that about among those interested, if only by offering "moral support", instead of leaving it as a matter of scornful indifference.

Like Charles Scott said, people gonna do what they gonna do. Best to give guidance of spirit even when guidance of specifics/mechanics may be entirely undoable.

[Simon Weil]

I'm not saying the street music of today and recent times isn't or doesn't deserve to be "what going on" aesthetically; but based on what I've heard, I see room for little or any musical congress beyond the level of decoration or mere literal (let's lay thing one on top of the other and see what we get) co-existence. Is the belief that it is or ought to be otherwise in part based on the racial makeup of today's street and the racial makeup of the streets that gave rise to jazz and furthered its development? One would think or hope that there would have to be/should be some overlap along those lines, but in terms of musical tools/habits and sensibility, I just don't hear it (which may be my problem/my ignorance). But if it doesn't have to do with the belief/hope that today's street links up with the streets of the past, and it is instead primarily a musical tools/habits and sensibility thing, then to me it's as though the polka were somehow in our world as sophisticated and edgy/street as can be. Would that then mean that jazz and the polka (arguably having so little in common in musical terms) still needed to work something out?

I'm not a rap fan, myself - but when I made my statement that someone should do a rap/Ayleresque soloing fusion, I meant it. I have an instinct that it would work.

Neither Rap and Ayler seem much like "music".

Simon Weil

[AllenLowe]

well, so much of our confusion stems from the fact that there is too much "product" or, maybe, a different philosophy of creation. I see a CD as a real project, like a novel, or a theatrical production, or a piece of performance art - in the current scene it's a business card, and I don't mean just for rappers but for many excellent new jazz/improvising musicians who don't know or care about their limits as composers. So it is one thing to have the visceral experience of seeing the music in person - another to have to wade through the 10,000 new CDs issued every month. This is, to a great degree, the reason for that recent article about the new disposable music industry of downloads and MP3s - we all want to blame bad pop music, but read the review pages of Cadence and Signal to Noise - there's just too much stuff coming out, and it all lends itself to a pick-and-choose and download stlye of listening -

[.:.impossible]

I'm not saying the street music of today and recent times isn't or doesn't deserve to be "what going on" aesthetically; but based on what I've heard, I see room for little or any musical congress beyond the level of decoration or mere literal (let's lay thing one on top of the other and see what we get) co-existence. Is the belief that it is or ought to be otherwise in part based on the racial makeup of today's street and the racial makeup of the streets that gave rise to jazz and furthered its development? One would think or hope that there would have to be/should be some overlap along those lines, but in terms of musical tools/habits and sensibility, I just don't hear it (which may be my problem/my ignorance). But if it doesn't have to do with the belief/hope that today's street links up with the streets of the past, and it is instead primarily a musical tools/habits and sensibility thing, then to me it's as though the polka were somehow in our world as sophisticated and edgy/street as can be. Would that then mean that jazz and the polka (arguably having so little in common in musical terms) still needed to work something out?

I'm not a rap fan, myself - but when I made my statement that someone should do a rap/Ayleresque soloing fusion, I meant it. I have an instinct that it would work.

Neither Rap and Ayler seem much like "music".

Simon Weil

I'm not sure I understand the concept. Can you draw comparisons?

[JSngry]

Like Robert McCullough on "Super Bad"?

[Simon Weil]

I'm not a rap fan, myself - but when I made my statement that someone should do a rap/Ayleresque soloing fusion, I meant it. I have an instinct that it would work.

Neither Rap and Ayler seem much like "music".

Simon Weil

I'm not sure I understand the concept. Can you draw comparisons?

In the sense that the centre of Ayler's soloing is his evocative sound playing - and in doing that he "goes beyond notes". So that you get a music where harmony and melody are no longer central. And it's also free rhythmically. All of which means practically all the regular aspects of western music no longer appear, or are marginalised - it's not much like "music" in that sense.

With Rap, my impression is of a skeletal music. With harmony and melody largely bleached out. It's got this strident vocal delivery, which reduces much of the possibility of expressivity - as well existing in space which isn't singing, yet isn't talking (I think). It's not much like "music" in this sense.

So what have you got? With Ayler, raw, unmitigated emotional power, yet of surpassing depth and subtlety. With Rap, also raw power - rooted in naked angularity of the rhythms and the brutal clarity of the vocals, which can be complex intellectually.

So you have the potential for a raw, powerful music reaching emotional depths but also conveying complex intellectual ideas. It would be in an area where "music" hasn't reached yet (at least I don't think so).

Which is easy to say.

Simon Weil

[Guest youmustbe]

Rap, Hip Hop, has it's own canon. cliches, limitations....that's why they would not sample Ayler.

The fact that after almost 30 years they can only still think of sampling JB's Funky Drummer or the Incredible Bongo Band's Apache shows just how, like everyone else, they are limited.

[Chuck Nessa]

Too many folks here pay too much attention to music enjoyed by children.

I think nostalgia drives this.

[Guest youmustbe]

Well, if you look at Showtime At the Apollo, it's not exactly children in the audience...and they certainly don't have Jazz acts!!!

Whether folks like it or not, Rap/Hip Hop is the 'music' of Black America, and not just 'children'. Some people have a problem accepting the fact that Jazz has almost no relavence, other than 'Smooth Jazz' to Black Americans.

Thatsa ShowBiz!!!!

BTW Even with Wynton, the staff at JOLC is mostly White.

[JSngry]

Too many folks here pay too much attention to music enjoyed by children.

I think nostalgia drives this.

Easy generalization, more complicated reality.

My kids hate most of the newer stuff I've been checking out. They think it's weird and not cool.

Then again, they dig the Beach Boys and have friends who wear Led Zepplin t-shirts and shit. I actually bitched out a 16 year old girl for wearing a Zep T. Told her that htey had broken up before she was even born, so what's she doing listening to her parent's music? She was all like "What EVER. It was a great band!"

There's some nostalgia for ya'.

I don't like too much, hardly any, in fact, of what the kids listen to. I think it's monodimensional and boring.

And if "kid's music" was so damn interesting, you'd think I could find at least one radio station (or MTV video) that holds my interest for more than 30 seconds. No luck.

Hell, one of the most interesting things I've heard lately is something that Dusty Groove doesn't even carry any more because it didn't sell well for them.

I think you should make a distinction between "children" and "young creative talent". There's a gazillion of the former, and they rule the bizness, even/especially those marketed/hyped as "underground" (more of the same, that bunch is). Far fewer of the latter, and they are way, waaaaaay undergrond. And they're not "children", unless you look at anybody old enough to be your offspring as a "child". Dangerous game that is....

I know what kids listen to & enjoy, and have for several decades now. When you get grandkids, you probably will too. And like me, you in all liklihood will not be impressed. At all.

Until then, easy generalization, far more complicated reality.

[paul secor]

Too many folks here pay too much attention to music enjoyed by children.

I think nostalgia drives this.

Easy generalization, more complicated reality.

My kids hate most of the newer stuff I've been checking out. They think it's weird and not cool.

Then again, they dig the Beach Boys and have friends who wear Led Zepplin t-shirts and shit. I actually bitched out a 16 year old girl for wearing a Zep T. Told her that htey had broken up before she was even born, so what's she doing listening to her parent's music? She was all like "What EVER. It was a great band!"

There's some nostalgia for ya'.

I don't like too much, hardly any, in fact, of what the kids listen to. I think it's monodimensional and boring.

And if "kid's music" was so damn interesting, you'd think I could find at least one radio station (or MTV video) that holds my interest for more than 30 seconds. No luck.

Hell, one of the most interesting things I've heard lately is something that Dusty Groove doesn't even carry any more because it didn't sell well for them.

I think you should make a distinction between "children" and "young creative talent". There's a gazillion of the former, and they rule the bizness, even/especially those marketed/hyped as "underground" (more of the same, that bunch is). Far fewer of the latter, and they are way, waaaaaay undergrond. And they're not "children", unless you look at anybody old enough to be your offspring as a "child". Dangerous game that is....

I know what kids listen to & enjoy, and have for several decades now. When you get grandkids, you probably will too. And like me, you in all liklihood will not be impressed. At all.

Until then, easy generalization, far more complicated reality.

Some of the discussion here reminds me of discussion/writing that went on during the "rock revolution" in the late 60s/early 70s. There was a lot said about how society was changing and how young rock musicians were most in touch with what was happening in society and in music. I also remember John Litweiler making the (astute, at least to me) comment that people should get off the teen age intellectual kick, or something to that effect - I don't have the quote handy. Not saying that it's the same deal today, but it's something to consider.

Certainly music meant more to more folks back then than it does today. These days, new music and most of the new artists who create it are throwaway items, pretty much forgotten in a few years, unless they have a good p.r. team behind them.

In the end, musicians will decide where music will go. Of course, these days it seems as if the media is more important than the music, but there will always be real musicians and they will take the music somewhere. Listeners/writers/critics have no control over that.

[Guest youmustbe]

There are more musicians today because there are more people. There are more media outlets for musicians to showcase themselves because there are more medie outlets. As the rapper O.C. says, 'There's a million motherfuckers that want to rap now'.

But I agree, 'old' people should not try to tell 'young' people what they 'should' listen to.

Lorin Mazel, the NY Philharmonic Music Director gave an interview last year in which he said that he didn't understand why young people wanted to listen to Rock music when they could listen to Bruckner symphonies. Yeah right!

[Patrick]

Tonight I will experience Lorin Maazel conducting the Symphonica Toscanini. The program includes Rossini’s Il Barbiere di Siviglia, Overture; Mendelssohn’s Symphony No. 4, and Respighi’s Fontane di Roma and Pini di Roma. Not the biggest Maazel fan, but I'm looking forward to it. Alas, no Bruchner this time. Maybe I'll listen to Freebird or Misterioso on the drive home.

[Werf]

I've loved Bruckner since I was in my early twenties, but this middle-aged chap will be rocking out to Guided by Voices tonight, with a side of creamy pop from Camera Obscura, after an afternoon of listening to various Roscoe Mitchell and AEC recordings.

[Guest youmustbe]

Yeah, I'll be at there next week when Renee Fleming joins the Phil and Symph Tosc...for the Gala...Looking forward to hearing her Casta Diva....Years ago, last century, at Carnegie Hall, I was going up the elevator to see George Solti backstage,.... I was living with the love of my life at the time...Anyway, there was this cute chick that got into the elevator with me....I asked her what her name was, 'Renee Fleming, I'm a singer'...Hmmm....I was gonna, but no...Idiot! Who knows, I could have married her and she could have divorced me like she did her husband and supported me in the divorce settlement for the rest of my life in comfort...And besides, she started as a Jazz singer!!!! What a dummy I was!!!!