Aggie87 Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 and honestly (not to use this as an excuse) id be stoked just that people want to hear my music. Being "stoked" doesn't put meat and potatoes on the table for the musician's family like paying for legitimate copies of the music does. Working musicians aren't millionaires. i like how you omitted the second part of my post about how ive spent $10,000 supporting musicians I was replying to the first part. The second part is not relevant to my point. However - if you've spent $10,000 supporting musicians, but own $50,000 worth of musicians, you've hurt them to the tune of $40,000. The size of your legitimate collection isn't an issue. It's the size of your illegitimate collection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baptizum Posted November 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 and honestly (not to use this as an excuse) id be stoked just that people want to hear my music. Being "stoked" doesn't put meat and potatoes on the table for the musician's family like paying for legitimate copies of the music does. Working musicians aren't millionaires. i like how you omitted the second part of my post about how ive spent $10,000 supporting musicians I was replying to the first part. The second part is not relevant to my point. However - if you've spent $10,000 supporting musicians, but own $50,000 worth of musicians, you've hurt them to the tune of $40,000. The size of your legitimate collection isn't an issue. It's the size of your illegitimate collection. i agree. this is how i roll if im not familiar with an artist, 1. i download their music 2. if i enjoy it, i will, to the best of my ability, purchase it 3. if i dislike it, i delete it. if i am familiar with an artist, i will likely just go out and buy it. i mean you cant go wrong with another coltrane or fela album, right? i dont like it when people steal from artist anymore than you guys. but i dont have the funds to purchase the album of every artist that is recommended to me. if i like it i will buy it. there are obvious exceptions. ive never been able to find a decent silva album anywhere, etc. but if alan silva was that worried about making money, dont you think hed continue printing his albums? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie87 Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 i agree. this is how i roll etc etc Suddenly your illegal activity seems ok to me now! I've SEEN THE LIGHT! Thank you. I am now going to start stealing cars. When I find the one I truly like, I'll pay for it. But not the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baptizum Posted November 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 (edited) i agree. this is how i roll etc etc Suddenly your illegal activity seems ok to me now! I've SEEN THE LIGHT! Thank you. I am now going to start stealing cars. When I find the one I truly like, I'll pay for it. But not the others. dont you test drive cars before you buy them? or do you just look at the outside and go at it? is it illegal for me to walk into a record store and listen to an album before i buy it? Edited November 6, 2007 by baptizum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 I'm somewhat in sympathy with RadeoHed Jr in sentiment on this, but his style, (apparent) disinterest in nuance. & the (again, apparent) ability to see other, less benevolent realities resulting from the activities that he himself practices benevolently leads me to think that this is a smart-as-far-as-he-goes kid who just needs to get a bigger taste of the bigger picture before bringing such a toughass attitude. One thing's for sure - the internest, phile sharing, and other digital dissemenations ain't goin' away. Best to find a way to work it instead of getting punked by it. But until "hey I ain't hurtin' nobody" Thommy and others like him see (and accept) that there really is a bigger picture, and no, it's not all about greed and old farts not getting the future, we're far more likely to get punked than not. A little nuance ain't gonna kill you. A lot might even free your ass up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 dont you test drive cars before you buy them? or do you just look at the outside and go at it? is it illegal for me to walk into a record store and listen to an album before i buy it? Where does that merchandise end up when your trials are finished? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie87 Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 dont you test drive cars before you buy them? or do you just look at the outside and go at it? is it illegal for me to walk into a record store and listen to an album before i buy it? Test driving cars is a legal activity. Listening to music in a record store is a legal activity. Show me how illegal downloading is legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baptizum Posted November 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 I'm somewhat in sympathy with RadeoHed Jr in sentiment on this, but his style, (apparent) disinterest in nuance. & the (again, apparent) ability to see other, less benevolent realities resulting from the activities that he himself practices benevolently leads me to think that this is a smart-as-far-as-he-goes kid who just needs to get a bigger taste of the bigger picture before bringing such a toughass attitude. One thing's for sure - the internest, phile sharing, and other digital dissemenations ain't goin' away. Best to find a way to work it instead of getting punked by it. But until "hey I ain't hurtin' nobody" Thommy and others like him see (and accept) that there really is a bigger picture, and no, it's not all about greed and old farts not getting the future, we're far more likely to get punked than not. A little nuance ain't gonna kill you. A lot might even free your ass up. my tough ass attitude only came into play after i was mauled by these pit bulls. you guys never gave me a chance to see any other point of view Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baptizum Posted November 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 dont you test drive cars before you buy them? or do you just look at the outside and go at it? is it illegal for me to walk into a record store and listen to an album before i buy it? Test driving cars is a legal activity. Listening to music in a record store is a legal activity. Show me how illegal downloading is legal. oh, so its wrong because its illegal. i see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baptizum Posted November 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 dont you test drive cars before you buy them? or do you just look at the outside and go at it? is it illegal for me to walk into a record store and listen to an album before i buy it? Where does that merchandise end up when your trials are finished? im sure im just some stupid fuck piece of shit kid, but i dont understand your question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 my tough ass attitude only came into play after i was mauled by these pit bulls. you guys never gave me a chance to see any other point of view You have a lot to learn about strategy, not the least of which is to never fire all six cylinders when only one - or none, even - will do. A man who comes off like he enjoys being a target will sure as hell become one. Just some friendly advice. Take it or leave it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie87 Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 dont you test drive cars before you buy them? or do you just look at the outside and go at it? is it illegal for me to walk into a record store and listen to an album before i buy it? Test driving cars is a legal activity. Listening to music in a record store is a legal activity. Show me how illegal downloading is legal. oh, so its wrong because its illegal. i see Not only illegal, but it's unethical and takes money from the artists/producers. But you sure got your free music, so you're cool. Let us know when you can make a valid argument for your activities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baptizum Posted November 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 my tough ass attitude only came into play after i was mauled by these pit bulls. you guys never gave me a chance to see any other point of view You have a lot to learn about strategy, not the least of which is to never fire all six cylinders when only one - or none, even - will do. A man who comes off like he enjoys being a target will sure as hell become one. Just some friendly advice. Take it or leave it. good post ill take it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 The thing is that illegal downloading is not going away. I'm doing my best to try to work around that and not against it, since there is nothing to be done. I agree that this place can be way too "boys club"-ish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 Dang, I step out for a few hours and all hell breaks loose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie87 Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 Dang, I step out for a few hours and all hell breaks loose. That'll teach you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 Dang, I step out for a few hours and all hell breaks loose. That'll teach you! What on earth was I thinking... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 im a poor college student. i dont get to buy that many albums, so i want to buy good albums. that said, i own over 500 albums this is how i roll if im not familiar with an artist, 1. i download their music 2. if i enjoy it, i will, to the best of my ability, purchase it 3. if i dislike it, i delete it. So we are supposed to believe that if you download an album (illegally) and like it, you go out and get it? Which is it? Are you a poor college student (who owns 500 albums) or someone who buys a legitimate copy if he "likes" it after hearing it? Tell the truth: you've downloaded hundreds of albums that you liked and will never ever pay for. Not now, not when you aren't a poor community college student. NEVER. But oh, you bought a Coltrane CD once, so who cares if you have seven other releases for free? You've supported the artist, just not quite as much as some people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baptizum Posted November 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 The thing is that illegal downloading is not going away. exactly it really sucks for struggling musicians. but the honest truth is, if someone isnt going to buy your music, theyre just not going to. so you can let it slide and hope the exposure works for the best or you can try t work around it. honestly, i subscribe to the theory "no press is bad press." but i wouldnt judge someone for not wanting someone stealing their music Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 dont you test drive cars before you buy them? or do you just look at the outside and go at it? is it illegal for me to walk into a record store and listen to an album before i buy it? Where does that merchandise end up when your trials are finished? im sure im just some stupid fuck piece of shit kid, but i dont understand your question. Well, I'm reasonalby sure you're not, but can we not go there, please, if the sole reason for this dialogue is to discuss an issue? The point of my question is to point out that in the acvtivites you descrive, you get a trial of the merchandise, and then it returns to its owner. When you file-share/etc (and unless it's a matter of "formal declaration", I think most of us are at least somewhat more tolerant of sharing for the purpose of exposing between true - as opposed to imaginary/virtual - friends than we are purely illegal file-sharing networks), not only do you get a free trial of the product, you get the product itself, and at no charge. Yeah, I know, there's packaging, but isn't packaging getting to be a bit geeky? Not that that's a bad thing, but don't most consumers today reaally just go for the tunes? Now yeah, you do the right thing and you put your money where your...bits are, and kudos to you for that, but a lot of people don't. Or they'll only buy a fraction of what they would if they followed your code as honestly as you do. And that, my friend, does have implications all up and down the musical food chain. Some of these things will get sorted out as people get out of the cloud of the old paradigms, but some things just cannot be overcome. And losing $ w/o finding an alterantive way to compensate is a bitch to beat. Some might call it impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie87 Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 The new Root Doctor CD is already on the torrents. It took us nine months of hard work and over $12k of our own money to make and some asshole (most likely a DJ since we haven't sold that many yet) has ripped it off for everyone! Yay! It's easy to say it's okay when it's not your livelihood. How do you think this is ok to do, Mr. Baptizum? Jim & co. will likely never make their money back on this music because it's being illegally shared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baptizum Posted November 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 im a poor college student. i dont get to buy that many albums, so i want to buy good albums. that said, i own over 500 albums this is how i roll if im not familiar with an artist, 1. i download their music 2. if i enjoy it, i will, to the best of my ability, purchase it 3. if i dislike it, i delete it. So we are supposed to believe that if you download an album (illegally) and like it, you go out and get it? Which is it? Are you a poor college student (who owns 500 albums) or someone who buys a legitimate copy if he "likes" it after hearing it? Tell the truth: you've downloaded hundreds of albums that you liked and will never ever pay for. Not now, not when you aren't a poor community college student. NEVER. But oh, you bought a Coltrane CD once, so who cares if you have seven other releases for free? You've supported the artist, just not quite as much as some people. ive been buying cds for over 10 years. both are true. i like over 500 albums ( or at least did at some point) but im not going to argue my defense anymore. ill answer civil questions. i actually own 11 coltrane alums of the top of my head. i will list them if you like Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baptizum Posted November 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 dont you test drive cars before you buy them? or do you just look at the outside and go at it? is it illegal for me to walk into a record store and listen to an album before i buy it? Where does that merchandise end up when your trials are finished? im sure im just some stupid fuck piece of shit kid, but i dont understand your question. Well, I'm reasonalby sure you're not, but can we not go there, please, if the sole reason for this dialogue is to discuss an issue? The point of my question is to point out that in the acvtivites you descrive, you get a trial of the merchandise, and then it returns to its owner. When you file-share/etc (and unless it's a matter of "formal declaration", I think most of us are at least somewhat more tolerant of sharing for the purpose of exposing between true - as opposed to imaginary/virtual - friends than we are purely illegal file-sharing networks), not only do you get a free trial of the product, you get the product itself, and at no charge. Yeah, I know, there's packaging, but isn't packaging getting to be a bit geeky? Not that that's a bad thing, but don't most consumers today reaally just go for the tunes? Now yeah, you do the right thing and you put your money where your...bits are, and kudos to you for that, but a lot of people don't. Or they'll only buy a fraction of what they would if they followed your code as honestly as you do. And that, my friend, does have implications all up and down the musical food chain. Some of these things will get sorted out as people get out of the cloud of the old paradigms, but some things just cannot be overcome. And losing $ w/o finding an alterantive way to compensate is a bitch to beat. Some might call it impossible. youre right. many people just go for the tunes. i am one those geeks though. i like liner notes and lyrics pages and artwork. hell i just being able to hold it in my hand. but honestly, its a tough situation. and i honestly believe that without the internet, these friends of yours' music wouldnt be able to reach near as many people. if it gets to the point that people are losing money, then its a bad thing. and it does happen. take wilco for example. i feel bad for the guys. very popular band that says they cant afford health insurance and they have to sell their tunes to volkswagon. but i dled my first wilco album. i now own three of their albums. im doubt i would have ever given them the chance, given the opinion i had of them before i had heard their music. its a tough situation, and i dont have the answers for how to fix it. it cant be stopped, it cant be policed. but it is exposure, and at the very least exposure sells tickets, if not also albums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 Dude, believe it or not, I was in your shoes once. Young, not exactly..."affluent", and despearaate to hear all this great music. So I bought what I could new, bought a lot used, and taped shit off of friends. I did it, but I never pretended that it was "ok". Ifessed up to my jones, and I tried to keep it as hinest for myself as I could. But I never claimed that my actions were totally harmless, becuase when you get something for free that you could/should pay for...hey, do the math, right? I'm older now, a little bit more affluent, and I buy a lot more, just because I can. But I alos got buddies, and we trade stuff back and forth for audition purposes and stuff like that, and yeah, ok, some of it I "like" but not enough to buy, but I still keep the burns, and you know.....that shit still ain't right, even though I spend more $$$ than ever. All I'm saying is that, like that Dylan line, "to live outside the law, you must be honest", and above all that means being honest with yourself. Anytime you (or I) get something for free, that's not harmless. No matter how much we do to make up for it, whatever net "plusses" we create, that doesn't later the fact that a wrong was committed. So let's not justify, rationalize, or otherwise attempt to defend what, if we are honest, is indefensible. Let's just have a code, live by it, keep it to ourselves, and try to do more good than harm over the long haul. Anything else really is a lie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baptizum Posted November 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 (edited) youre a smart man so its not right Edited November 6, 2007 by baptizum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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