Baseball Steroid Thread

[papsrus]

I never said the steroid issue was a bunch of lies.

I was reacting to the comment that if these are lies, why don't the ballplayers sue.

My reasons are what followed.

Clearly, though, speculation rules the roost here. And that isn't proof.

OK. All due respect, I think you might be riding a fine line there.

It will be interesting to see how much benefit of the doubt Clemens gets compared to Bonds. I for one find his stunned denials a little hard to take.

The thing about these top-level athletes is, they've been told how good they are since they were 10. Everyone around them and everything they've done through their entire lives is designed to build them up and make them the "best." When they are suddenly confronted with their own failings (we all have 'em) they don't know how to deal with it. They're just not equipped. They fall back onto people who will prop them up. So the weaker ones lie rather than deal with the truth.

Even Pettitte's "confession" was slimy, IMO. "... If I did something wrong ...." Ah, yeah, you did something wrong. Just freakin' come clean.

[Tim McG]

I never said the steroid issue was a bunch of lies.

I was reacting to the comment that if these are lies, why don't the ballplayers sue.

My reasons are what followed.

Clearly, though, speculation rules the roost here. And that isn't proof.

OK. All due respect, I think you might be riding a fine line there.

It will be interesting to see how much benefit of the doubt Clemens gets compared to Bonds. I for one find his stunned denials a little hard to take.

The thing about these top-level athletes is, they've been told how good they are since they were 10. Everyone around them and everything they've done through their entire lives is designed to build them up and make them the "best." When they are suddenly confronted with their own failings (we all have 'em) they don't know how to deal with it. They're just not equipped. They fall back onto people who will prop them up. So the weaker ones lie rather than deal with the truth.

Even Pettitte's "confession" was slimy, IMO. "... If I did something wrong ...." Ah, yeah, you did something wrong. Just freakin' come clean.

Fair enough.

[Tim McG]

Any bets on when the media jackals are going to let Roger Clemens off the hook? They like him.

He asks for "patience." Nice. Like Barry Bonds got that.

To wit: "I am disappointed that my 25 years in public life have apparently not earned me the benefit of the doubt, but I understand that Senator Mitchell's report has raised many serious questions. I plan to publicly answer all of those questions at the appropriate time in the appropriate way. I only ask that in the meantime people not rush to judgment."

Yeah. How about that.

Story: Clemens Denies Then Asks For Patience

Edited December 19, 2007 by GoodSpeak

[BERIGAN]

Clubhouse culture led ex-Mariner to steroids and greenies

[Dan Gould]

Well, Clemens has gone on the warpath but no one has commented so far. For once, Murray Chass wasn't a complete dumbass in his column in the NYT today, which focused mostly on the problem that Clemens and his high-priced mouthpiece should have with the fact that Pettitte admitted that the trainer's statements were true while Roger is sticking with the deny, deny, deny response.

I can't wait to see this 60 Minutes interview on January 6 but I have serious doubts about Mike Wallace as the interviewer. As has been noted in reports about the interview, not only is Wallace a regular fixture at Yankee Stadium, he's described as a "friend" of Clemens. So why does he do the interview instead of someone without any potential conflicts of interest? It will really suck if its a puffball interview - Mike Wallace in his prime would have wiped the floor with Clemens.

The bottom line is that it is obvious that he is going to have his lawyer try to slime his former trainer to somehow prove that he is not trustworthy. But that Pettitte confession will always be out there. I am still amazed that Pettitte even issued the "If I did something wrong" pseudo-apology, when he had to know what he was saying would be devastating to Clemens. I really hope that Clemens goes too far and McNamee's attorneys file suit for defamation. Then we'll find out if Clemens has the Bonds-sized balls to lie under oath, too.

[Tim McG]

Assuming, of course, Bonds lied under oath.

[Dan Gould]

Anyone else think that its risky for Clemens to go with the "he injected me, but not with steroids" defense? I mean, it acknowledges first and foremost that he submitted himself to injections by a trainer. Then you've got this ludicrous sounding choice of supposed drugs that were used. According to the NYT:

In a telephone interview Thursday, Dr. Jerome Groopman, a hematologist and professor at Harvard Medical School, described lidocaine as a common local anesthetic whose injectable form would probably require a prescription. Groopman said that vitamin B12, which does not require a prescription, is administered to patients with a serious deficiency of the vitamin, usually the elderly, and that its value as an energy enhancer was “an urban legend.”

“For someone like Roger Clemens, who certainly looks robust, the likelihood that he would be deficient in vitamin B12 is a stretch,” Groopman said, noting that he had not seen Clemens’s medical records. “It would have no physiological effect. It would only have a placebo effect.”

So why does Clemens say that lidocaine is for his "joints" if its a local anesthetic? There's nothing whatsoever in the wikipedia entry to indicate lidocaine as serving any purpose for his joints. And Roger the workout warrior needs B-12 shots? If he's going for the Bonds "if I used them I didn't know what they were at the time" excuse its pretty ridiculous because we already have interviews from other McNamee clients stating that when asked about steroids, he counseled against them.

[T.D.]

I Googled "lidocaine knee injuries", and lidocaine does appear to have use in treating knee pain. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Clemens used it for knee or elbow injuries. I'm sure that pain-killer injections are common in the NFL (although maybe less so than they once were), so why not baseball?

The B-12 thing, though dubious-sounding, has precedents. ISTR cyclist Greg LeMond receiving highly publicized B-12 treatment during one of his Tour de France wins; granted, many cognoscenti sniggered at the reports (and still do, given Greg's loud anti-doping posturing), suspecting other substances. Looks to me like, by introducting the B-12 gambit, Clemens is trying to go the Sheffield (and other BALCO clients) flaxseed oil route, i.e. "My trainer gave me this shit, but I just thought it was B-12". Has Sheffield gotten into serious hot water yet? That defense wouldn't work in international athletics, which are governed by IOC/WADA, but it might be OK in the unregulated MLB, in which the substances weren't officially banned (in spite of the Mitchell report rigmarole about prescription medicines). For some strange reason, the public seems to be inclined to believe Roger...

[Disclaimer: I've always considered Clemens a juicer, and personally believe that his story is complete BS. But he might get away with it.]

[Tim McG]

Excuse?

Hm.

So...all ballplayers who are accused must be guilty. M'kay.

[Dan Gould]

I Googled "lidocaine knee injuries", and lidocaine does appear to have use in treating knee pain. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Clemens used it for knee or elbow injuries. I'm sure that pain-killer injections are common in the NFL (although maybe less so than they once were), so why not baseball?

The B-12 thing, though dubious-sounding, has precedents. ISTR cyclist Greg LeMond receiving highly publicized B-12 treatment during one of his Tour de France wins; granted, many cognoscenti sniggered at the reports (and still do, given Greg's loud anti-doping posturing), suspecting other substances. Looks to me like, by introducting the B-12 gambit, Clemens is trying to go the Sheffield (and other BALCO clients) flaxseed oil route, i.e. "My trainer gave me this shit, but I just thought it was B-12". Has Sheffield gotten into serious hot water yet? That defense wouldn't work in international athletics, which are governed by IOC/WADA, but it might be OK in the unregulated MLB, in which the substances weren't officially banned (in spite of the Mitchell report rigmarole about prescription medicines). For some strange reason, the public seems to be inclined to believe Roger...

[Disclaimer: I've always considered Clemens a juicer, and personally believe that his story is complete BS. But he might get away with it.]

I can't recall Clemens ever having a knee injury (it wass always leg/groin problems), and I'm pretty sure elbow issues came later in his career. Even if its anesthetic properties make it useful as a pain-killer, why not say that he had such pain. Its surely not regarded as something like glucosamine that is promoted as something that helps the joints.

I'm not sure that Sheffield is going to get in trouble as he was at least forthcoming in his grand jury testimony. I don't think he actually used the "my trainer gave me this shit" excuse - if I recall correctly, it was Bonds who recommended BALCO so who knows what he knew ahead of time.

Not sure at all what the public believes at this point. Has there been a poll or even a lot of man-in-the-stadium interviews? I've yet to see a columnist who hasn't said that Pettitte's admission is a major blow to Clemens' credibility.

BTW, the more I think about the 60 Minutes interview the less I am concerned about how Mike Wallace treats him. Supposedly Clemens will hold a press conference on Monday, once his short "exclusive" with CBS ends. At that point, I expect all gloves to come off and that he will get a lot of direct, challenging questions about what incentive McNamee has to lie, why he would tell the truth about Pettitte but lie about him, why he is giving his attorney freedom to slime him, etc., etc.

In fact, the Globe's Gordon Edes had a great list of ten questions that Wallace should ask; I'm sure that the reporters will come up with similar ones, and Clemens will find out that it isn't so easy to intimidate people when they've got an insider spilling the beans.

Ten questions for Mike Wallace to ask Roger Clemens in his "60 Minutes" interview, to be aired next week:

1. You have described Brian McNamee as someone at the "top of the list" of trainers with whom you have worked for the better part of a decade. What possible motive would he have to link you with steroids and human growth hormone?

2. If you were in McNamee's position, would you lie to federal investigators, knowing that you were risking jail time if you did?

3. Why would McNamee have told the truth about another of his clients, Andy Pettitte, and lied about you?

4. How widespread do you believe the use of performance-enhancing substances to be in major league baseball, and why didn't you, as one of the elite stars of the game, lobby your union to do more to create a level playing field, if you weren't among the cheaters?

5. Given your one-time regard for McNamee as a trainer and friend, do you approve of the efforts of your lawyer, Rusty Hardin, to do whatever he can to discredit McNamee, even if it means impugning his reputation?

6. In a 2005 interview with the Houston Chronicle, you said: "I'm going to find anything I can that'll make me stronger and allow me to keep up with the 20-year-olds, but I'm going to depend on physicians to tell me what's OK." If you were willing to try "anything" to give you an edge, why should we believe that didn't include performance-enhancing substances?

7. Your sons are athletic; your oldest son is a professional ballplayer. What do you say to your sons about the charges in the Mitchell Report and what they have done to your reputation?

8. Let's assume that you are totally clean, as you claim to be. How can you possibly salvage your reputation in the aftermath of the Mitchell Report? And if you or other top stars are not clean, did you ever entertain the thought that full disclosure might actually be in the best interests of baseball, and help the industry to put behind it some of the excesses of the steroid era?

9. Do you believe it compromises the credibility of this interview that I, Mike Wallace, became friends with you after an earlier "60 Minutes" profile and am a frequent guest in George Steinbrenner's box?

10. In retrospect, do you wish you'd never met Jose Canseco?

[T.D.]

I think a very fruitful line of questioning, which seems to have been overlooked so far, is

Why was Clemens even receiving injections from McNamee?

1) The guy's not even remotely medically qualified, and seems to be a scumbag (as portrayed earlier in the thread). Why would an athlete with a multi-million dollar contract conceivably risk getting medical treatment from some numbskull off the street?

2) Surely receiving athletic-related pain-killing injections from non-team (or non-team approved) entities (I can't even say physicians here ) would be a violation of team policy, as the player could subject himself to further injury (or malpractice ).

3) The very fact that he got injections from McNamee suggests that he knew the procedures were not sanctioned, or even illegal; otherwise why not get treatment from legitimate (or team) sources?

4) Perhaps there was team complicity, with ballclubs referring players to shady sources for treatments they didn't wish to administer directly.

[Quincy]

And Roger the workout warrior needs B-12 shots?

In the mid-1980s I was friends with a guy who was a 3rd generation weightlifter who did steroids. I ended up going out west for a couple of weeks with him and getting exposed to this bizarre weightlifting scene that involved a Russian steroid dealer and all sorts of theories as to what one could do to improve one's health.

With people involved with weights & getting stronger it doesn't matter whether there's good medical science to show that a healthy fit person doesn't need B-12 shots. B-12 is usually the first thing all these sorts of obsessive weightlifter types go for. It's probably because you get instant results - your pee turns a shade of gold that is hard to acquire by other means. While Roger isn't a weight lifter, he's been hanging out in that sort of culture for some time. Trainers & longtime weightlifters receive a lot of respect and are believed to know more than the poo-poo know-nothing medical establishment. So I could easily believe he'd want B-12 injections. I could also easily believe he'd want shots of deca-durobolin too.

Admitting to the B-12 is great for his story though, as there are instances where trace amounts of steroids end up in these sorts of supplements, especially if acquired from dubious (or foreign) sources. So now he has an out. And if he did have steroid injections, by admitting to the B-12 it's easier for him to lie, as he can try to make all the injections in his mind B-12s, sort of like how someone can make some sex acts not be sex.

[Dan Gould]

I think a very fruitful line of questioning, which seems to have been overlooked so far, is

Why was Clemens even receiving injections from McNamee?

1) The guy's not even remotely medically qualified, and seems to be a scumbag (as portrayed earlier in the thread). Why would an athlete with a multi-million dollar contract conceivably risk getting medical treatment from some numbskull off the street?

2) Surely receiving athletic-related pain-killing injections from non-team (or non-team approved) entities (I can't even say physicians here ) would be a violation of team policy, as the player could subject himself to further injury (or malpractice ).

3) The very fact that he got injections from McNamee suggests that he knew the procedures were not sanctioned, or even illegal; otherwise why not get treatment from legitimate (or team) sources?

4) Perhaps there was team complicity, with ballclubs referring players to shady sources for treatments they didn't wish to administer directly.

Totally agree with 1-3; the NY Post column says much the same thing:

That defense is difficult to believe because it's unlikely McNamee would have injected him only with legal substances. A team's doctor or training staff would do that. Clemens would have needed McNamee to provide shots the team's staff would not, like illegal steroids.

Lidocaine is a drug used as an anesthetic before surgery. If Clemens were receiving shots of the drug, it is curious that he would be getting them from his trainer and not a licensed physician.

Number 4 I am not so sure about, because it was Clemens who prevailed upon the Yankees to hire McNamee. I don't think that the Yanks were complicit, and at some point they are the ones who fired him (while Clemens continued to employ him privately).

BTW, Canseco's book mentioned the fact that "B-12" shots became known widely as the code word for getting steroid shots. And of course it was Palmiero's explanation for his positive test when he threw Tejada under the bus (and Tejada was fingered in the report now as well). I'm guessing that Roger thought back, said "we called them B-12 shots - that's what I'll say he injected me with."

Its ridiculous and just goes to show what I said earlier - admitting his trainer injected anything only further establishes McNamee's credibility while casting doubt on the likelihood that he would inject anything unless it was an illegal substance that he couldn't obtain through team trainers or his own doctor.

[Dan Gould]

Admitting to the B-12 is great for his story though, as there are instances where trace amounts of steroids end up in these sorts of supplements, especially if acquired from dubious (or foreign) sources. So now he has an out. And if he did have steroid injections, by admitting to the B-12 it's easier for him to lie, as he can try to make all the injections in his mind B-12s, sort of like how someone can make some sex acts not be sex.

Not sure about your first point though - since there is no positive test to refute, why even entertain the possibility that he received steroids inadvertently?

As to your statement about Roger not being a weightlifter - I have a hard time believing that hardcore strength training wasn't a part of his iron-man fanatic workout, considering how much bigger his shoulders, chest, back, and thighs got after he left Boston. The legs might come to an extent from non-weightlifting work, but the upper body expansion mirrors that of Bonds and really only comes from strength training (+ what Bonds called "the shit").

[Quincy]

Admitting to the B-12 is great for his story though, as there are instances where trace amounts of steroids end up in these sorts of supplements, especially if acquired from dubious (or foreign) sources. So now he has an out. And if he did have steroid injections, by admitting to the B-12 it's easier for him to lie, as he can try to make all the injections in his mind B-12s, sort of like how someone can make some sex acts not be sex.

Not sure about your first point though - since there is no positive test to refute, why even entertain the possibility that he received steroids inadvertently?

I've stopped keeping track the details. So oh yeah, this is all observational stuff, not test results. Not sure about my first point either then!

As to your statement about Roger not being a weightlifter - I have a hard time believing that hardcore strength training wasn't a part of his iron-man fanatic workout, considering how much bigger his shoulders, chest, back, and thighs got after he left Boston...

Sorry, I meant "professional weightlifter" like Vasiliy Alekseyev, where Rog would wear a red bodysuit and walk up to a podium with his big belly hanging out and his nuts hanging low. Ah, memories from the Wide World of Sports from the early '70s. No doubt Clemens did lots of lifting & weight training, as did Bonds.

[Dan Gould]

As to your statement about Roger not being a weightlifter - I have a hard time believing that hardcore strength training wasn't a part of his iron-man fanatic workout, considering how much bigger his shoulders, chest, back, and thighs got after he left Boston...

Sorry, I meant "professional weightlifter" like Vasiliy Alekseyev, where Rog would wear a red bodysuit and walk up to a podium with his big belly hanging out and his nuts hanging low. Ah, memories from the Wide World of Sports from the early '70s.

:g

[Dan Gould]

Well, 60 Minutes and the press conference are just the aperitif, since McNamee, Clemens and Pettitte have now been "invited" to testify before a Congressional hearing on January 16th!

Finally, the politicians step up to the plate and force these people to lay it on the line. Everybody goes under oath; everybody risks a perjury charge. Now we really will find out, long before a defamation lawsuit goes to trial, if Clemens has the Bonds-sized balls to lie under oath.

I'd say that the press conference just got a little more interesting, but the real moment of truth is just a couple of weeks away.

BTW, Randomski has been invited to testify as well, which means that he can testify to the fact that McNamee said things like "he's on the program now" in regards to Clemens - never said "he's on steroids" but it was understood what was meant.

[Jazzmoose]

...if Clemens has the Bonds-sized balls...

Holy shit! I thought it just made their heads big!!

[Dan Gould]

...if Clemens has the Bonds-sized balls...

Holy shit! I thought it just made their heads big!!

More of a figure of speech. Testes shrink (yet more proof that Bonds had to know what he was using or he'd have run to his doctor in a heartbeat) but when it comes to displays of extreme arrogance, shrinking testicles didn't stop Bonds from being the same a-hole he's been his entire life.

Now we'll see whether Clemens measures up.

[T.D.]

I rarely watch TV, but will have to watch the Clemens interview on 60 Minutes tonight. I assume that it'll run as the final 20-minute segment, in order to sucker in the maximum # of viewers and minimize the audience dropoff from football.

Not sure what to expect from the Congressional hearing. A Sosa-McGwire style farce is possible...but that didn't appear to work out so well for McGwire, who subsequently withdrew into self-imposed isolation.

[Tim McG]

...if Clemens has the Bonds-sized balls...

Holy shit! I thought it just made their heads big!!

More of a figure of speech. Testes shrink (yet more proof that Bonds had to know what he was using or he'd have run to his doctor in a heartbeat) but when it comes to displays of extreme arrogance, shrinking testicles didn't stop Bonds from being the same a-hole he's been his entire life.

Now we'll see whether Clemens measures up.

OK.

Let me see if I got this straight: If Bonds runs to his doctor, his testicles have shrunk. If he doesn't run to his doctor his testicles have shrunk. Therefore, he had to be using steriods and Clemens has Bonds sized balls. And you want to see if he will measure up?

I swear, that has to be the funniest damn thing I have read about Bonds in a year!

Yer killin' me, Dan

Maybe Senator Mitchell should have interviewed a urologist.

Edited January 6, 2008 by GoodSpeak

[Dan Gould]

I rarely watch TV, but will have to watch the Clemens interview on 60 Minutes tonight. I assume that it'll run as the final 20-minute segment, in order to sucker in the maximum # of viewers and minimize the audience dropoff from football.

Not sure what to expect from the Congressional hearing. A Sosa-McGwire style farce is possible...but that didn't appear to work out so well for McGwire, who subsequently withdrew into self-imposed isolation.

TD,

yes, it will run third in the rotation, so about 35 minutes or so after the football game ends. Might be as late as after 8:30 tonight. There is a terrific column about the art of being a tough interviewer and why Wallace is unlikely to even make Roger squirm a bit here.. Must read column, imo.

As for the Congressional hearing, I would downplay the likelihood of a Sosa-McGuire farce. I would expect Randomski and McNamee to appear on one panel, answering questions and giving extensive detail on what they witnessed. Next will (or should) be Pettitte and Knoblauch. Pettitte, because he has already admitted that McNamee told the truth, and Knobby because he is another player that McNamee identified, iirc. With immunity and no pending legal investigation, Knoblauch can either

A) Tell the truth, give McNamee more credibility, and put another nail in the Texas Con Man's coffin

B) Take the Fifth, which will have the same effect as A)

C) Take the Clemens approach and deny, deny, deny

After that, out comes Roger for his own panel, to answer under oath and in front of a nation, the question of whether or not he used steroids and HGH, and if he denies it under oath, to explain why he should be believed when McNamee keeps getting more and more support (there's a very interesting interview with McNamee's lawyers in the New York Daily News in which they mention that McNamee actually predicted beforehand that Pettitte is an honest guy and he would tell the truth when the story breaks. They went on to say that there is more collaboration available than just McNamee's direct testimony about both Clemens and Pettitte.)

I honestly think that in between the grandstanding by the politicians, there will be extremely compelling moments of testimony, a cut below famous moments like "At long last, sir" and the revelation about the Oval Office taping system ... but at least we can hope for an Iran-Contra "I am not a potted plant, Senator!" from Rusty Hardin.

[Tim McG]

Baseball Prospectus perspective

[Dan Gould]

More on lidocaine from Lupica's column:

"Lidocaine is for ligaments or tendons or pain areas, to numb them," Dr. Lewis Maraham, whose business is sports medicine, said Saturday. "It would not be shot into somebody's butt, because there is no systemic effect. You need a prescription for it, but no legitimate doctor gives it to patients to inject or have their friends inject."

Still sticking with that story, Roger?

[Tim McG]

Innocent until proven guilty.