Kenny Cox on Bluenote

[andybleaden]

Had no idea there was a third album. Please report when you've listened, Andy.

Will do!

[david weiss]

David makes a really valuable point about the CJQ guys writing the influence of Miles' band into the compositions themselves and about the open-ended feel of the music, especially Charles Moore's tunes. (Hadn't heard that he was in France, by the way.) I would note that Miles' guys were already doing this in their originals recorded in the studio by 1967-68, and it's interesting that Moore referenced "Miles in the Sky" (released in 1968) as the turning point for his peers in Detroit because many of those tunes are filled with shifting meters and feels. "Paraphernalia" shifts between 4 and 3; "Country Son" also morphs between 4 (fierce swing and even-8th note sections) and a ballad-like waltz section. The form on "Black Comedy" -- and I'm cribbing here from Belden's liner notes in the Columbia box because this tune is where I hit the wall in my own ability to decipher meters; I get lost every time I hear it; guess that's why I'm a writer -- is four bars of 6 against 4; two of 4/4, one of 5/4 and one of 6/4. It would be interesting to know when exactly the CJQ guys heard "Miles in the Sky" relative to the recording of their two sides. I'll ask Kenny.

Re: "A New Conception." I'll certainly concede that the Herbie-Ron-Tony influence is clumsy at times and the totally free passages David mentions were Rivers' aesthetic not Miles' (one of the reasons he didn't last in the band). But just because they don't necessarily have all the tools to pull it off doesn't mean they aren't trying to assimilate the ideas. The point I wanted to emphasize is that this was a really early example of the Miles quintet's influence spreading to young players. After all, it was recorded in Oct. 1966 -- before "Miles Smiles," "Sorcerer" and "Nefertitti" were even released, so the recorded references they would have been dealing with were still the standards records, save "ESP." Plus, none of the originals had yet made their way into the band's live repertoire except for "Agitation." The shit was really moving swiftly in those days.

David: Look forward to hearing your recordings of Charles' tunes. Keep us posted.

The question of how quickly things influenced people and how quick those influences were reflected in subsequent recordings is an interesting topic. As Mark said, I think things were moving pretty quickly back then with so many innovations coming at you from all places, all the time it seemed. There is also the live element. Seeing Miles live at that time with that group could have a devastating impact on like minded musicians. This probably had an influence on the Rivers rhythm section as well as they probably had more chances to see Miles live during that time then the Detroit crew (though I'm sure Miles came through Detroit a few times during that period). I know when I hear a record or a live gig that has a strong impact on me I find myself at the piano that night with the ideas flowing and a whole CD worth of material can materialize in a matter of days or a whole new conception for a new group. It can be that immediate and I'm sure in the '60s there were more things happening that would have that sort of impact.

Re: "A New Conception"...I'll go with the notion that these guys heard Miles live during this time and judging from the Plugged Nickel stuff, you could imagine what they heard. True, if you are just going by what they heard on record, they would just have ESP to work with (but that would be of some help). I would have to go back and listen but until Miles In The Sky, it seems that the originals they recorded on "Miles Smiles," "Sorcerer" and "Nefertitti" were, for them, pretty straight readings of the material (but what material) and things did really open up on Miles in The Sky especially with Paraphernalia and Black Comedy partially because, surprise, some of the time changes etc were written into the forms of the tunes and especially influential to Charles (I think) was that each section the soloist plays over in Paraphernalia is cued (like Charles' Number 4). An interesting side note (to me at least), I invited myself to the studio a few times when the Miles Quintet Box (65-68) was being researched and they were going through all the tapes and listening to all the sessions. For the "Miles Smiles," "Sorcerer" and "Nefertitti" sessions for the most part there would be anywhere from 5 to 10 false starts and then one complete take for each tune (sometimes with the head out being redone and spliced onto the master take). Refer to the box, not a whole lot of alternate takes from those sessions.

I have the Kenny Cox Strata LP and it's an interesting record. Like the Miles Quintet, they went a little more electric here. Andy, did your LP come with an insert? I'm attaching it here.

Also, Mark, here's a rhythm section part to Black Comedy for you to follow. If you cribbed the whole form from the box set notes, I think something is missing. I went over this with someone who had Tony's chart of the tune and the only difference I recall (which I didn't change for sake of clarity) is in Bar 16, he had one bar of 7/4 while I have a bar of 5/4 and a bar of 2/4

blackcomedybass.pdf

[david weiss]

I can't make the scan of the Cox insert small enough to post here and be legible. I can e-mail it to anyone who wants it.....

Edited March 29, 2008 by david weiss

[Jim Alfredson]

I had a few "lessons" with Kenny when I was at MSU. I put lessons in quotations because they were more conversations about music and life than "Hey, practice this." He's a gentleman, a great person, and a fine musician.

I played with Danny Spencer once when he sat in with a band I was playing with at the Green Door in Lansing. He was back in town for some reason or another. A real sweetheart.

[ValerieB]

i think ralph "buzzy" jones who is still in l.a. deserves a mention here as a member of "eternal wind" and a comrade of charles moore's, yusef lateef's and kenny cox's. he's still very much happening as a graduate of ucla's ethnomusicology department and a vibrant musician in these parts with impeccable credentials.

[Mark Stryker]

Also, Mark, here's a rhythm section part to Black Comedy for you to follow. If you cribbed the whole form from the box set notes, I think something is missing. I went over this with someone who had Tony's chart of the tune and the only difference I recall (which I didn't change for sake of clarity) is in Bar 16, he had one bar of 7/4 while I have a bar of 5/4 and a bar of 2/4

Thanks much for this part -- I'll check it out as soon as I have a moment. The forms of these tunes can be pretty tricky, not least because the band played them so loosely -- "Pinocchio" is a good example. I mean, exactly what are the changes? Plus, they hardly ever stick to the 18-bar form.

Update: Found a bunch of hip transcriptions and analysis on Steve Kahn's site, including this disection of Herbie's solo on "Pinocchio" and the tune in general. http://www.stevekhan.com/pinocchioa.htm

Edited March 30, 2008 by Mark Stryker

[erhodes]

I remember reading in some of Leroi's writings that Charles Moore was in New York for a while in the mid-60s and worked with Marion Brown, among others. Can anybody confirm this?

The Baraka reference comes from his “Apple Cores” series in Down Beat, specifically Apple Cores #4 (1966). He describes a gig in Newark billed as the “Detroit Artists Workshop” but the only Detroiter he names is Moore. Marion Brown, Pharoah Sanders and Rashied Ali were at the gig and he also names two Newark based saxophonists who performed, altoist George Lyle and tenorist Howard Walker. His references to Moore are quite specific. He states that Moore played a “short crackling set” and he later goes on to speak of him in the same context as Donald Ayler, arguing that, after Ayler, Moore was the strongest free trumpet player he had heard.

There are two other interesting references to Moore from the mid to late 60’s. J. B. Figi mentions him in the liner notes to Joseph Jarman’s first album, “Song For”, noting that Jarman spent time in Detroit playing with Moore in a group called the Detroit Contemporary 5. Rob Backus’s little book “Fire Music” has very brief descriptions of two Detroit musicians cooperatives with overlapping memberships: the Detroit Creative Musicans Association which apparently folded and eventually morphed into Strata (which was, among other things a record label), and the Tribe (which also had its own record label). He lists Moore, Cox, Spencer and Henderson as recording for STRATA and Moore as a member of Tribe.

I bought “Multidirection” back in the day after reading the Baraka and Jarman pieces and remember being mildly disappointed. I was expecting to hear a trumpet player like Eddie Gale or Ted Daniel or Lester Bowie and music closer to what one might hear on ESP or one of the early AACM Delmarks. I certainly didn’t see how the playing on the Blue Note warranted a comparison with Donald Ayler. I still have a lot of questions about that. I’ve since heard a couple of the Phil Ranelin recordings on Tribe records done in the early 70’s. Moore performs on at least two of these and they sound nothing like “Multidirection”, though they don’t sound much like an ESP either. I didn’t get the impression that either the Strata or Tribe esthetics were heavily influenced by Miles so, frankly, I’ve been wondering over the years exactly what was going on. I wonder what Moore thought of Baraka's review.

[clifford_thornton]

Thanks, Ed. My copy of the Jarman and the LeRoi are both in storage and hadn't recalled that from Figi's liners.

I don't have the Fire Music book you reference, but will have to keep an eye out. FWIW, I wasn't too impressed by the Tribe records I heard, though they seem a curious/unique lot.

If I'm able to make successful contact with Moore, I'll follow up on these. It'd surely be interesting to hear from him if there was another tangent to his playing which has no recorded legacy.

[david weiss]

Also, Mark, here's a rhythm section part to Black Comedy for you to follow. If you cribbed the whole form from the box set notes, I think something is missing. I went over this with someone who had Tony's chart of the tune and the only difference I recall (which I didn't change for sake of clarity) is in Bar 16, he had one bar of 7/4 while I have a bar of 5/4 and a bar of 2/4

Thanks much for this part -- I'll check it out as soon as I have a moment. The forms of these tunes can be pretty tricky, not least because the band played them so loosely -- "Pinocchio" is a good example. I mean, exactly what are the changes? Plus, they hardly ever stick to the 18-bar form.

Update: Found a bunch of hip transcriptions and analysis on Steve Kahn's site, including this disection of Herbie's solo on "Pinocchio" and the tune in general. http://www.stevekhan.com/pinocchioa.htm

Funny...Pinocchio was my first stab at trying to figure out what this group was doing but that was a while ago. I think I was reduced to counting measures.

My take on Pinocchio....

They either play the changes and just come in with the theme whenever they want

or

Miles and Wayne play essentially free, well more of a theme a variation thing (Miles mostly sticks to a Ab Minor with a major 7 sound) and come in with the theme when they are done and Herbie plays over the changes.

I'm inclined to think the latter

[david weiss]

I've heard various Strata and Tribe records and all have merit to me or are at least fairly interesting. There are some obscure ones on Strata, folks I've never heard of. Of the Tribe stuff, the sleeper to me is a record by Harold McKinney. Seek that one out, though I doubt it's on CD.