Power cords

[jazz1]

I always been a skeptic about the use fancy power cords.

Anyway I was given one to try for a few days and I have to admit that my system seems to sound better with it. The presence is improved it even seems slightly louder?

I was wondering is the placebo effect was taking effect thus during the last few days I've asked

as few friends to listen and give me their opinions, and at no stage they knew which cords was on.

The std one or the audiophile (300$) one.

Well unfortunately for me, they all prefered the audiophile cords, which is bad news at it means

spending more money!!

I used the cord on my integrated amp, (Pathos TT) I could not try it on my cd player as the cord was too short but I imagine the the cd player would also benefit.

Any experience on power cords??

[porcy62]

I bought fancy power cords years ago, when I lived in an apartment with a awful wiring system, and it helped, at least is what I thought back then. Placebo effect? Maybe. Then I added a good and expensive power conditioner, and it helped much more.

In the new house I have a new and excellent wiring system, but I already bought all the stuff for the 'clean current'. Never tried any experiment with the old std power chords.

What I noted was that some kind of power supply, like 'switching mode', (my Linn gears) are rather insensible at power chords compared to traditional power supply, tubed and toroidal transformer. Though I think that any good component has (or should have) a good enginered power supply in order to minimize the bad influence coming from house wiring system through power chords.

[Jim Alfredson]

All a power cord does is transfer AC from your wall to whatever component. The component itself converts that AC into DC, which is what all the internal electronics of said component run on.

Why would a different power cord make any difference? AC is AC. As long as it is (in the US) around 115vac and 60Hz, gear does not care. Power supplies in gear are designed to work with slight voltage variances, which can occur from any number of sources (power company, your home's internal wiring, etc.) A six foot long cable from the wall to the component is not going to have an effect on any of that.

It's a scam. You'd be better off getting some sort of line conditioner, which will smooth any flucuations in your home's power and give the components a nice, steady diet of 115vac. That will have more of an effect than a cable.

In fact, some digital gear won't even work with too low of voltage or will produce multiple errors. If you live in an older home in an older neighborhood you would probably hear improvement. Then again, if your power is stable, it won't do much except protect your equipment from a brownout or a sudden surge coming down the line.

[Daniel A]

I agree with Jim. As many miles as the current has been on its way through totally unknown chords before it reaches your power outlet, the last couple of feet will not be of any significance.

[porcy62]

It's a scam. You'd be better off getting some sort of line conditioner, which will smooth any flucuations in your home's power and give the components a nice, steady diet of 115vac. That will have more of an effect than a cable.

In fact, some digital gear won't even work with too low of voltage or will produce multiple errors. If you live in an older home in an older neighborhood you would probably hear improvement. Then again, if your power is stable, it won't do much except protect your equipment from a brownout or a sudden surge coming down the line.

My thought and experience.

Though "fancy" power chords, interconnects and speakers cables are useful in order to avoid mutual interferences, if they are well insulated. Behind my system there is a jungle of cables, no way to avoid the contact among them. It happened to me that I had to give back interconnect to the shop because they got all the interference from other cables.

Edited May 2, 2008 by porcy62

[jazz1]

[

It's a scam. You'd be better off getting some sort of line conditioner, which will smooth any flucuations in your home's power and give the components a nice, steady diet of 115vac. That will have more of an effect than a cable.

You know, many people are skeptical about a lot of things in audio, not only power cords but interconnects, speakers cables etc.

I remember in the early 80's when cd arrived everybody was telling us that the sound would be perfect and constantly good.

The fact is, that 5 different people prefered the expansive power cords in a complete blind testing

2 of them audiophiles the other 3 just visitors. It was done at different time thus they was no talking or influences taking place. But 5 out of 5 is maybe still a coincidence, thus I will carry on my experiment and report back.

[sidewinder]

I use standard IEC power cable but arranged in a 'hydra' with a star earthing arrangement. Sort of like a 'power octopus'. Made a very noticeable difference but that's due to improved earthing. A quirk of my particular amp/power supply supplier.

No problem with 240V mains quality that I know of so no need for line conditioner. Only to be used if necessary (at least with the mains conditions as they exist here).

Edited May 2, 2008 by sidewinder

[Jim Alfredson]

I am skeptical because of what I know about electronics and the fact that if you think about this logically, there is no reason why a six foot length of cable going from the wall to your component would make any difference in how it sounds. Like Daniel A stated, the power is being delivered from the plant through miles and miles and miles of cable. Is another six feet of "audiophile grade" power cable going to really offset all that?

As far as the tests, whenever one is testing audio equipment, one quickly enters the realm of the subjective. There are just too many variables. For instance, what kind of music did you listen to? Was it music that each person was familar with? How familar? What volume was it at? Was it the same exact db each time? Did you always use one cable the first time you listened an the other the second time or did you mix them up for different tunes? Was everyone sitting and listening together? People in groups can be influenced by the perception of other people in the group.

A better way to test the power cables would be to have two completely identical systems set up or at least two identical CD players (or SACD or whatever you're using) and an input selector to switch between the two. Have one player with the normal cord, the other with the expensive cord and play the same CD at the same time so you can switch back and forth between the two and really compare. Then again, you'd have to first test both with a regular cord to make sure they both sound the same to begin with.

If you really think it makes a difference, hey it's your money. But I guarantee a line conditioner would yield better results and add protection to your equipment as well.

[jazzhound]

I am skeptical because of what I know about electronics and the fact that if you think about this logically, there is no reason why a six foot length of cable going from the wall to your component would make any difference in how it sounds. Like Daniel A stated, the power is being delivered from the plant through miles and miles and miles of cable. Is another six feet of "audiophile grade" power cable going to really offset all that?

As far as the tests, whenever one is testing audio equipment, one quickly enters the realm of the subjective. There are just too many variables. For instance, what kind of music did you listen to? Was it music that each person was familar with? How familar? What volume was it at? Was it the same exact db each time? Did you always use one cable the first time you listened an the other the second time or did you mix them up for different tunes? Was everyone sitting and listening together? People in groups can be influenced by the perception of other people in the group.

A better way to test the power cables would be to have two completely identical systems set up or at least two identical CD players (or SACD or whatever you're using) and an input selector to switch between the two. Have one player with the normal cord, the other with the expensive cord and play the same CD at the same time so you can switch back and forth between the two and really compare. Then again, you'd have to first test both with a regular cord to make sure they both sound the same to begin with.

If you really think it makes a difference, hey it's your money. But I guarantee a line conditioner would yield better results and add protection to your equipment as well.

yes power chords do make a difference. devices such as PS Audio Power Plants make a bigger difference. My observations are not colored by what I "know" about electronics , just many hours of critical listening and experimentation.

[Free For All]

EbMA7(#9#11)

[Jim Alfredson]

yes power chords do make a difference. devices such as PS Audio Power Plants make a bigger difference. My observations are not colored by what I "know" about electronics , just many hours of critical listening and experimentation.

Your observations are most likely colored, but probably by how much the cables cost.

Give me a sound, scientific reason why 6 feet of expensive power cable would make a difference.

[Jim Alfredson]

http://www.edn.com/index.asp?layout=articl...cleid=CA6418215

[jazz1]

"......As far as the tests, whenever one is testing audio equipment, one quickly enters the realm of the subjective. There are just too many variables. For instance, what kind of music did you listen to? Was it music that each person was familar with? How familar? What volume was it at? Was it the same exact db each time? Did you always use one cable the first time you listened an the other the second time or did you mix them up for different tunes? Was everyone sitting and listening together? People in groups can be influenced by the perception of other people in the group......"

The way I did the test is as follows, first we listened to music for about 20 min not mentioning that any test would take place, this was done with the audiophile power cord.

Only then did I mentioned that I would like to find out their opinions about the power cords

I explained that one was a std cord the other a 300$ cord.

At no stage did they know which cord they have been listening to.

I replayed the last track with the same power cord, then changed the audiophile power cords to the std cord.

Again nobody was aware which cord was playing.

The track used was one of my best demo disc which contains a stunningly good vocal recording with, piano, bass, drums. It is by Dinah Shore "Dinah sings, Previn plays"

(Which is to me one of the best recording of a female voice) I think that it was recorded in the late 50's and just sounds so natural, Dinah is in the room with you.

It is easy music, everybody knew the tune "It has to be you"

The volume was the same at all time as my amp has a digital display.

I repeated the test twice always with the same results, even when I swoped the sequence.

Yes it can still be a coincidence

All 5 people listened at different time.

I have 2 audiophiles friends coming this weekend I will repeat the same test.

Personally I "think" that I can hear a difference, but I am keen to try other cords, if possible cheaper

as 300$ seems over the top.

[porcy62]

yes power chords do make a difference. devices such as PS Audio Power Plants make a bigger difference. My observations are not colored by what I "know" about electronics , just many hours of critical listening and experimentation.

Your observations are most likely colored, but probably by how much the cables cost.

Give me a sound, scientific reason why 6 feet of expensive power cable would make a difference.

Well about scientific reasons, back in the eighties, the obsession of audiophiles and the manufacturers and engineers were mesurements, frequency response, and the Holy Grail: ZERO DISTORTION, lather on the very same guys discovered that an archaic technology like vacuum tube with a distortion of 3% is much more pleasant and musical then a SS amp with a distortion of 0.00001%.

I know that they found scientific explanation for it (afterwards oubviously): harmonic distortion, etc, but like someone said:

Noah, a lone amateur, built the ark. It took a large team of professionals to build the Titanic. And we all know how it went.

Edited May 3, 2008 by porcy62

[jazzhound]

yes power chords do make a difference. devices such as PS Audio Power Plants make a bigger difference. My observations are not colored by what I "know" about electronics , just many hours of critical listening and experimentation.

Your observations are most likely colored, but probably by how much the cables cost.

Give me a sound, scientific reason why 6 feet of expensive power cable would make a difference.

Well about scientific reasons, back in the eighties, the obsession of audiophiles and the manufacturers and engineers were mesurements, frequency response, and the Holy Grail: ZERO DISTORTION, lather on the very same guys discovered that an archaic technology like vacuum tube with a distortion of 3% is much more pleasant and musical then a SS amp with a distortion of 0.00001%.

I know that they found scientific explanation for it (afterwards oubviously): harmonic distortion, etc, but like someone said:

Noah, a lone amateur, built the ark. It took a large team of professionals to build the Titanic. And we all know how it went.

Porcy, you have it right. I studied electrical engineering at Pratt Institute, but nothing I learned there would cause me not to trust what my ears tell me.

[Jim Alfredson]

The track used was one of my best demo disc which contains a stunningly good vocal recording with, piano, bass, drums. It is by Dinah Shore "Dinah sings, Previn plays"

(Which is to me one of the best recording of a female voice) I think that it was recorded in the late 50's and just sounds so natural, Dinah is in the room with you.

Do you think they were using $300 power cords on the equipment to record that?

[Jim Alfredson]

Porcy, you have it right. I studied electrical engineering at Pratt Institute, but nothing I learned there would cause me not to trust what my ears tell me.

Maybe you need to study psychoacoustics as well.

[porcy62]

The track used was one of my best demo disc which contains a stunningly good vocal recording with, piano, bass, drums. It is by Dinah Shore "Dinah sings, Previn plays"

(Which is to me one of the best recording of a female voice) I think that it was recorded in the late 50's and just sounds so natural, Dinah is in the room with you.

Do you think they were using $300 power cords on the equipment to record that?

I don't, but in the broadcasting studios where I work, they didn't spare on power chords, line conditioner or interconnects or digital cables thought they don't buy stuff in Hi-Fi shop. I mean that there are std cheap power chords and good std power chords, I think you'd call it "Hospital Grade" in U.S., maybe.

Edited May 3, 2008 by porcy62

[porcy62]

Porcy, you have it right. I studied electrical engineering at Pratt Institute, but nothing I learned there would cause me not to trust what my ears tell me.

Maybe you need to study psychoacoustics as well.

BTW Psychoacoustics works 'au reverse' too, if you hardly believe that power chords don't influence the sound you'd note any difference even if they play two different mastering/mixing of the same tracks.

Edited May 3, 2008 by porcy62

[Jim Alfredson]

Well then, we have a solution to save yourself money. Just tell yourself it doesn't make a difference and voila, you don't have to spend $300 per component "upgrading" the power cords. Problem solved!

[porcy62]

Well then, we have a solution to save yourself money. Just tell yourself it doesn't make a difference and voila, you don't have to spend $300 per component "upgrading" the power cords. Problem solved!

Or tell yourself that with $ 300 power chord your records sound better and you enjoy them more.

At the end we all have to die, so who am I to tell you what is your happiness?

Are you happier without $ 300 and a new power chord?

Do you feel yourself smarter then all the audiophile sheeps, saving $ 300?

Happiness is subjective, no psychoacoustic or scientific reasons.

Life is too short for such questions.

[Jim Alfredson]

Good sound is subjective as well. And that's my overall point.

The science behind these cords is bunk. If you want to believe that they sound better, hey go ahead. I personally can think of 1000 things to spend $300 on that are more worthwhile than some standard gauge copper wrapped in a fancy jacket.

As for life being too short for such questions, the original question in the first post of this thread asks if these cords made a difference. The answer scientifically is no. The answer to someone who just spent $300 on them is probably "yes".

We believe what we want to believe.

[Chuck Nessa]

[porcy62]

Good sound is subjective as well. And that's my overall point.

Exactly.

The science behind these cords is bunk.

The science up to Galileo Galilei said the sun was turning around the earth and, just to be more modern, told us that feeding vegetarian animals like cows with meat derived food was safe and we have 'mad cow disease'.

As for life being too short for such questions, the original question in the first post of this thread asks if these cords made a difference. The answer scientifically is no.

Scientifically there is no difference between a Stradivari and a Yamaha. Scientifically there is no difference between a good steak and a McDonald hamburger.

We believe what we want to believe.

Yes, we believe what we want to believe, or in what scientific paradigmas are pushing us to believe.

I suggest you a couple of books about science:

The Structure of Scientific Revolutions (1962), by Thomas Kuhn

Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge (1975) by Paul Fayerabend

Seriously, science is more complex then wikipedia, a bunch of scientists on internet and the marketing office of high end cables manufacturers.

Edited May 4, 2008 by porcy62

[jazz1]

The track used was one of my best demo disc which contains a stunningly good vocal recording with, piano, bass, drums. It is by Dinah Shore "Dinah sings, Previn plays"

(Which is to me one of the best recording of a female voice) I think that it was recorded in the late 50's and just sounds so natural, Dinah is in the room with you.

Do you think they were using $300 power cords on the equipment to record that?

Do you mean that it could have been even better???

Well another 2 persons confirmed my findings, and I took out the audiophile powercord and after a few hours I realised that I could not do without it. So here it goes, I took the plunge and placed my order.