*** John Scofield ***

[king ubu]

uhm, why's Pat being discussed on this forum, isn't this about jazz?

as for Sco, I've never seen him live and been both warm and cold with his music again and again... but I once heard a long part of a Ray show on the radio and he was just awesome, digging deeply into the music, and the whole band made him sound so much more soulful than often (much of his stuff can sound awfully cold to me, you know, of that kind of cool and hard and I guess NYC type of cold....)

[7/4]

as for Sco, I've never seen him live and been both warm and cold with his music again and again... but I once heard a long part of a Ray show on the radio and he was just awesome, digging deeply into the music, and the whole band made him sound so much more soulful than often (much of his stuff can sound awfully cold to me, you know, of that kind of cool and hard and I guess NYC type of cold....)

Instead of the Swiss kind of cold?

[king ubu]

as for Sco, I've never seen him live and been both warm and cold with his music again and again... but I once heard a long part of a Ray show on the radio and he was just awesome, digging deeply into the music, and the whole band made him sound so much more soulful than often (much of his stuff can sound awfully cold to me, you know, of that kind of cool and hard and I guess NYC type of cold....)

Instead of the Swiss kind of cold?

Na, Swiss kind of cold is what IRS and Obama try to hack now... (with my agreement, but it's not popular...)

Seriously, what I mean is kind of a hard-edgedness (that may not even be in the actual music, more in the general attitude the music is presented with) that I seem to hear in a lot of 90s "young lions" jazz (folks like Rosenwinkel, Turner, Potter, Blake etc etc) and that I find quite tiring after a short while, even if the music may be fascinating and multi-faceted (i.e. with Rosenwinkel or Turner). I realise Sco is a bit older and has been tutored by one of the very greatest talent scouts of jazz, but still... maybe it's just my ears, but more often than not, I don't connect with his music (Lovano, collaborator on some of his discs - often referred to as among his best - is a similar case).

[JETman]

as for Sco, I've never seen him live and been both warm and cold with his music again and again... but I once heard a long part of a Ray show on the radio and he was just awesome, digging deeply into the music, and the whole band made him sound so much more soulful than often (much of his stuff can sound awfully cold to me, you know, of that kind of cool and hard and I guess NYC type of cold....)

Instead of the Swiss kind of cold?

Besides, Sco lives up in Connecticut. So wouldn't it be "CT type of cold"?

Btw, my favorite playing by him is a tie between that on his Swallow/Nussbaum albums, and that on his Blue Notes with Lovano/Irwin/Stewart. That was a great band.

I never liked his playing with Miles. I much preferred the down and dirty playing of Mike Stern.

[7/4]

Besides, Sco lives up in Connecticut. So wouldn't it be "CT type of cold"?

It's that suburban cool. Sort like living in New Jersey, but you're almost in Canada.

[Aggie87]

Seriously, what I mean is kind of a hard-edgedness (that may not even be in the actual music, more in the general attitude the music is presented with) that I seem to hear in a lot of 90s "young lions" jazz (folks like Rosenwinkel, Turner, Potter, Blake etc etc) and that I find quite tiring after a short while, even if the music may be fascinating and multi-faceted (i.e. with Rosenwinkel or Turner). I realise Sco is a bit older and has been tutored by one of the very greatest talent scouts of jazz, but still... maybe it's just my ears, but more often than not, I don't connect with his music (Lovano, collaborator on some of his discs - often referred to as among his best - is a similar case).

Flurin - If you haven't already, check out "En Route Live" or the Trio Beyond recording on ECM for some great (IMO) recent Scofield. I find myself pulling these out (and some of his earliest stuff) more than alot of his BN and Gramavision era recordings nowadays. I also like the MSMW "Out Louder" recording, both the studio and live disc, but that may not be your cup of tea.

I saw Scofield tour on the Ray Charles project tour, and thought he (and the material) was better live than on that record. Too many guest stars I suppose. I'm curious about the Piety Street record though, and hope having a vocalist doesn't take the focus off his playing too much.

[JETman]

Seriously, what I mean is kind of a hard-edgedness (that may not even be in the actual music, more in the general attitude the music is presented with) that I seem to hear in a lot of 90s "young lions" jazz (folks like Rosenwinkel, Turner, Potter, Blake etc etc) and that I find quite tiring after a short while, even if the music may be fascinating and multi-faceted (i.e. with Rosenwinkel or Turner). I realise Sco is a bit older and has been tutored by one of the very greatest talent scouts of jazz, but still... maybe it's just my ears, but more often than not, I don't connect with his music (Lovano, collaborator on some of his discs - often referred to as among his best - is a similar case).

Flurin - If you haven't already, check out "En Route Live" or the Trio Beyond recording on ECM for some great (IMO) recent Scofield. I find myself pulling these out (and some of his earliest stuff) more than alot of his BN and Gramavision era recordings nowadays. I also like the MSMW "Out Louder" recording, both the studio and live disc, but that may not be your cup of tea.

I saw Scofield tour on the Ray Charles project tour, and thought he (and the material) was better live than on that record. Too many guest stars I suppose. I'm curious about the Piety Street record though, and hope having a vocalist doesn't take the focus off his playing too much.

I was referring more to "Shinola" and "Out Like a Light" on Enja ----- pre-Gramavision.

[king ubu]

Seriously, what I mean is kind of a hard-edgedness (that may not even be in the actual music, more in the general attitude the music is presented with) that I seem to hear in a lot of 90s "young lions" jazz (folks like Rosenwinkel, Turner, Potter, Blake etc etc) and that I find quite tiring after a short while, even if the music may be fascinating and multi-faceted (i.e. with Rosenwinkel or Turner). I realise Sco is a bit older and has been tutored by one of the very greatest talent scouts of jazz, but still... maybe it's just my ears, but more often than not, I don't connect with his music (Lovano, collaborator on some of his discs - often referred to as among his best - is a similar case).

Flurin - If you haven't already, check out "En Route Live" or the Trio Beyond recording on ECM for some great (IMO) recent Scofield. I find myself pulling these out (and some of his earliest stuff) more than alot of his BN and Gramavision era recordings nowadays. I also like the MSMW "Out Louder" recording, both the studio and live disc, but that may not be your cup of tea.

I saw Scofield tour on the Ray Charles project tour, and thought he (and the material) was better live than on that record. Too many guest stars I suppose. I'm curious about the Piety Street record though, and hope having a vocalist doesn't take the focus off his playing too much.

I was referring more to "Shinola" and "Out Like a Light" on Enja ----- pre-Gramavision.

You know, it's funny because this discussion comes up (or rather: I intervene) when a pile of Sco discs are out here to be listened to again... from my memory, I quite enjoyed "Groove Elation" and "Quiet", as they both were a bit warmer and more varied. I also have "Shinola" but it's stacked away somewhere. "En Route" I have somewhere, as well. And yes, I think the energy and fun of the Ray Charles band wouldn't transpose nicely onto a studio disc, so even though I loved that concert, I never even checked out the CD... I've heard some boots of the Sco/Swallow/Stewart band, too, and I think they're quite cool. Trio Beyond I don't really know... I once left the disc behind when it was in a sales bin (there were too many others I wanted more badly...), but somehow I've regretted that as I remember hearing some bits on the radio, possibly even before it was released (it's a live recording, right?)

Anyway, there's plenty of interesting stuff in his discography (though I've only heard one of the Grammavisions and although I have a lot of respect for Grolnick and enjoy his two Blue Note albums a lot, all these cheesy synths and Darry Jones' - I think? - electric bass and Sco's fusion-y guitar.... yuck yuck yuck, just the sound of it all, no way I could stand it, and that was back in the 90s when I was playing lots of 80s Miles and even some stuff such by guys like Stanley Clarke...).

[oneofanotherkind]

uhm, why's Pat being discussed on this forum, isn't this about jazz?

as for Sco, I've never seen him live and been both warm and cold with his music again and again... but I once heard a long part of a Ray show on the radio and he was just awesome, digging deeply into the music, and the whole band made him sound so much more soulful than often (much of his stuff can sound awfully cold to me, you know, of that kind of cool and hard and I guess NYC type of cold....)

Sound like you should pick up a copy of ...

[king ubu]

I think that's the one I've heard back then

[oneofanotherkind]

I hear you on the "coldness". Recently , I've been listening to a lot of Chris Potter, specifically this one

and the uber-hipness of the proceedings does infuse a certain coldness all-around, from Potter to Rogers to Taborn.

However, Sco is one of the last guys I'd hold up as emblematic or responsible for this "cold front". Honestly, if you want to blame someone , I think it goes straight back to Miles in the early 70s. And isn't it tough to single-out Rogers , Rosenwinkel , etc. when you have Stern & Bullock & Miller layin' down "no mercy" lines way back in the bad ol' days of early 80 Miles and then the 55 Grand scene -- and couldn't that be seen as sort of a lineage from Johnny Mac a decade earlier ?

Sco to me is someone who infuses a heady dose of friendliness and humour into the perhaps way too hip scene favored by the younger generation. To my taste , John is like a trendy downtown restaurant that attracts all the pretty women while still servin' up a menu fimly grounded in wholesome homestyle cookin'.

Edited March 30, 2009 by oneofanotherkind

[mjzee]

I heard ScoLoHoFo recently, and really did not like it. Nothing wrong with Sco, but those other three guys made it dull and lackluster. I think these days, Sco is better with a funk groove. When he does pure jazz dates (Works For Me is another that comes to mind), I think he's too respectful of the music - to bring out Scofield's best, he needs to be more greazy and sardonic - his Frank Zappa side. And those sidemen - Lovano and Kenny Garrett are not the way to go. He needs someone bolder and funnier, with a thicker sound (but no one comes to mind). Just my two cents.

[king ubu]

I hear you on the "coldness". Recently , I've been listening to a lot of Chris Potter, specifically this one

and the uber-hipness of the proceedings does infuse a certain coldness all-around, from Potter to Rogers to Taborn.

However, Sco is one of the last guys I'd hold up as emblematic or responsible for this "cold front". Honestly, if you want to blame someone , I think it goes straight back to Miles in the early 70s. And isn't it tough to single-out Rogers , Rosenwinkel , etc. when you have Stern & Bullock & Miller layin' down "no mercy" lines way back in the bad ol' days of early 80 Miles and then the 55 Grand scene -- and couldn't that be seen as sort of a lineage from Johnny Mac a decade earlier ?

Sco to me is someone who infuses a heady dose of friendliness and humour into the perhaps way too hip scene favored by the younger generation. To my taste , John is like a trendy downtown restaurant that attracts all the pretty women while still servin' up a menu fimly grounded in wholesome homestyle cookin'.

Now that's a warm embrace! I'll certainly have that in mind once those Sco discs are on top of the listening pile!

Maybe you're right... and yes, that coldness thing might indeed go back to Miles (it also infected some acoustic jazz, in my opinion, i.e. VSOP, no denying that Herbie is great, and of course so is Tony Williams... but I just want to point out that this observation of mine includes the whole "traditional" part of 80s jazz as well, and may indeed start in the 70s already...)

But the mere fact that Miles did it alas doesn't mean the others can do it and pull it off successfully. To this day, the best of Miles comeback stuff has a raw and unclutched quality that is oh so rare in most fusion music and still makes Miles' music very listenable to me. I guess that's the bad part of the great towering characters, just as Coltrane's influence taking on almost epidemic character in the mid/late 60s...

I heard ScoLoHoFo recently, and really did not like it. Nothing wrong with Sco, but those other three guys made it dull and lackluster. I think these days, Sco is better with a funk groove. When he does pure jazz dates (Works For Me is another that comes to mind), I think he's too respectful of the music - to bring out Scofield's best, he needs to be more greazy and sardonic - his Frank Zappa side. And those sidemen - Lovano and Kenny Garrett are not the way to go. He needs someone bolder and funnier, with a thicker sound (but no one comes to mind). Just my two cents.

Another interesting remark. I guess that goes to the opposite of what the "jazz police" would like to hear... but you may have a point. I consider "Up All Night" one of the most enjoyable albums of recent years, while the one with Garrett, Mehldau etc. is infected (I take it by the way of his young sidemen, then, not by his own fault) by that coldness I keep talking of... a live recording of the "Uberjam" band (with Avi Bortnick) I've heard was tremendously enjoyable as well!

And although going in another musical direction, maybe that also shows in the Ray Charles project (at least in the great live recording I've heard on a radio broadcast some time ago).

[Guest Bill Barton]

I heard ScoLoHoFo recently, and really did not like it. Nothing wrong with Sco, but those other three guys made it dull and lackluster. I think these days, Sco is better with a funk groove. When he does pure jazz dates (Works For Me is another that comes to mind), I think he's too respectful of the music - to bring out Scofield's best, he needs to be more greazy and sardonic - his Frank Zappa side. And those sidemen - Lovano and Kenny Garrett are not the way to go. He needs someone bolder and funnier, with a thicker sound (but no one comes to mind). Just my two cents.

Skerik?

[oneofanotherkind]

Edited April 1, 2009 by oneofanotherkind

[Guest Bill Barton]

Yeah, anybody who names a band The Dead Kenny G's is okay with me...

[mjzee]

OMG, this reminds me of a guy who roamed the subways in the early 80's. Short guy, dressed in Sun Ra regalia, who'd enter a subway car and announce that he was an alien from another planet, and he was about to play some cosmic tones - and would then do about 30 seconds of energy music on a tenor, and then pass the hat! Does anyone here remember him?

(I know, I know, far off topic, but I had to share.)

[7/4]

John Scofield and the Piety Street Band, with Mr. Scofield, right, on guitar, and clockwise,

the pianist Jon Cleary, the bassist George Porter Jr. and the drummer Ricky Fataar at

B. B. King Blues Club & Grill.

Jazz Guitarist in a Gospel-Soul Catharsis

[Aggie87]

Have you heard the album yet, 7/4? I'm curious about it, but haven't seen it locally (not that there's really any local stores anymore other than Best Buy). May have to order this one.

[7/4]

Not yet. I'm still trying to catch up on the last 20 years of Sco.

.

[king ubu]

Ok, I've been listening to Scofield continuously and almost exclusively (some Frisell in between) yesterday and am continuing today, and gee... I guess I was indeed wrong about that "cool" or "cold" thing... still, even though I like a lot of what I've heard, on some of the earlier BN albums, there's some kind of mood that I can't always connect with.

What I played so far:

Time On My Hands & Meant to Be - both with Lovano, both very fine!

Grace Under Pressure - with Frisell and no solo horns, will have to play it again and listen attentively enough to be able to tell them apart (hey, I was working while having it on... but Joey Baron does make a difference, no matter how good Bill Stewart is, Baron is just so much fun!)

What We Do - a revival of the quartet w/Lovano, less good than the two earlier ones

Hand Jive - with Eddie Harris and with the organ making a first appearance (Goldings - he's on piano and organ here), not as succesful as I'd wish, being a big fan of Eddie's.

Groove Elation - one of my favourites! Idris Muhammad on drums, Goldings on organ exclusively here, some good horn arrangements, funky playing...

Quiet - the first one for Verve, and indeed more quiet than usual, lots of acoustic guitar (only acoustic?), Swallow on electric bass though (the earlier BNs all had double bass), some very, very good playing from Wayne Shorter (who's only on three songs, alas) - another favourite!

Works for Me - now this one does definitely sound cold, and alas (it was smilin' Billy's last recording, right?) quite dead... Mehldau is a totally wrong choice, Garrett I like here and there, but on this one he sounds, well, cold and dead, too... and the rhythm section of McBride & Higgins never really gets started... (kind of like Osby's album with Hill, Hall et.al. - the parts are much better than the whole that results from their combination...)

right now coming towards the end of "ScoLoHoFo", and although I quite like Lovano (yeah, I know, if I'm talking of "cold", he's guilty a lot of the time, too... but not on those two first albums with Sco!). Again, this just doesn't gel... not sure what's the problem, but maybe the Ho and possibly the Fo parts? Though Foster can do this groovy stuff, of course, but Muhammad might have been a more logical choice (ScoLoHoMu?), and Holland can do it all, technically speaking, but it's been so long that he's done groovy funky stuff (as opposed to his own groovy stuff, which I'm afraid often has a certain stiffness to it... not accusing him of stiff upper lip, though, he he).

To be ended with "Up All Night" (and maybe I'll dig up "Trio En Route" if I can find it), where the grooves do gel as far as I can remember, and very much so.... that's the the kind of (moderately) dirty setting where Sco can really play...

[Joe G]

That's a lot o' Sco!

I bought Grace Under Pressure immediately upon release and it was my overall favorite of his for a long time.

I like both Hand Jive and Groove Elation quite a lot. Wore 'em both out, and saw Sco touring in support of both albums. From Hand Jive, check out "Out Of The City" - very nice tune.

I'm in agreement with you on both Quiet and Works for Me. The latter, unfortunately, did not. The other weird thing about it is the mix. Mehldau is way off in a corner somewhere.

Up All Night is interesting, with some good tunes, but Uberjam has the slight edge for me of those two.

Some monster playing on En Route, as I recall.

[mjzee]

Big thumbs up for Grace Under Pressure, Groove Elation and Hand Jive. Agree that Eddie sounds a little anemic on HJ, but still funky. I was lucky to see Sco a little before HJ came out, where he did a lot of the tunes. Eddie wasn't there, but Goldings really stepped up to the plate. I'm not a big fan of Quiet - Sco should have played electric on that one!

If you want warmth, check out the Metheny collaboration - very tasty. If you like a mix of funky and rocky, check out Flat Out. In fact, there's so much of the earlier stuff that's really nice...

[king ubu]

That's a lot o' Sco!

I bought Grace Under Pressure immediately upon release and it was my overall favorite of his for a long time.

I like both Hand Jive and Groove Elation quite a lot. Wore 'em both out, and saw Sco touring in support of both albums. From Hand Jive, check out "Out Of The City" - very nice tune.

I'm in agreement with you on both Quiet and Works for Me. The latter, unfortunately, did not. The other weird thing about it is the mix. Mehldau is way off in a corner somewhere.

Up All Night is interesting, with some good tunes, but Uberjam has the slight edge for me of those two.

Some monster playing on En Route, as I recall.

Haven't dug out "En Route"... and it seems I would like "Uberjam" then... same band as on "Up All Night", I think?

And yes, Mehldau is way too low in the mix on "Works for Me", he doesn't even get a push for his solos - very weird. Recording-wise, ScoLoHoFo sounded great to me, but also "Groove Elation" and "Quiet".

Big thumbs up for Grace Under Pressure, Groove Elation and Hand Jive. Agree that Eddie sounds a little anemic on HJ, but still funky. I was lucky to see Sco a little before HJ came out, where he did a lot of the tunes. Eddie wasn't there, but Goldings really stepped up to the plate. I'm not a big fan of Quiet - Sco should have played electric on that one!

If you want warmth, check out the Metheny collaboration - very tasty. If you like a mix of funky and rocky, check out Flat Out. In fact, there's so much of the earlier stuff that's really nice...

I just don't get Metheny, he's all too much for me, always under "kitsch" suspicion...

As for Eddie, I think "Hand Jive" is also recorded in a bit weird a way, and Harris hasn't got a big tone or anything (maybe that's just how it seems to me, his sound doesn't sound loud and big on records, and I've never seen him live, alas) and somehow he's just not nearly as much of a presence as I'd wished for.

[7/4]

John Scofield - Still Warm

I was surprised to find a sealed copy of this in the store last week, I was so sure it was long out of print. I bought it on vinyl when it came out, I haven't heard it in years!

Protocol 'n' Techno are old favorites.