rare Mastersounds/Wes discovery

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

monk, buddy, richie crabtree, benny martin + wes

and feat. roy harte and milt holland on percussion

are u guys in the know about this obscure mastersounds-releated issue?

[Chas]

As you've probably noticed , the cover looks like one of those Enoch Light Command covers . It shouldn't come as a surprise then that what you've got here is one of those stereo show-off records , in this case featuring all kinds of 'exotic' percussion with lots of overdubbing ; the Mastersounds providing mere background . A good sounding record ( Bones Howe worked for Kimberly ) , but not a good record .

[mikeweil]

Is this available somewhere? I'd buy this in a second. Milt Holland is a favorite of mine,as well as the Montgomery clan and their affiliates.

[Teasing the Korean]

This album had previously been available on the World Pacific label with different cover art (WP 1405 mono, WPS-1405 stereo, under the title Perfect Percussion). The Kimberly issue came later.

And I beg to differ about this not being a "good record." It is a VERY SOLID exotica album with more jazz content than many exotica records have. Wes is definitely in more a support mode here, but he does take some solos. The arrangements on this record are really nice. The only thing it has in common with Command records is the Albersesque cover art.

I have a room full of jazz albums and probably 100 or so exotica records. This one is unlike any in either section.

Interesting arrangements, nice tune selection, great playing. What more could you ask of a record?

Edited September 23, 2008 by Teasing the Korean

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

ah! so it was on World Pacific? AWESOME!!!!!!! all kimberley issues arent reissues are they? yo do u have the orginal lp artwork? i wanna see if ive ever seen it before---

and who was the album credited to on the orginal? was wes/mastersounds more promientily mentoined?

[Teasing the Korean]

Edited September 23, 2008 by Teasing the Korean

[Chuck Nessa]

A good sounding record ( Bones Howe worked for Kimberly ) , but not a good record .

I just remember the label as a cheap reissue label (of the type to delete one tune). Did Howe do any original recordings for them?

[Teasing the Korean]

In this case there were no songs deleted for the Kimberly issue.

[Chas]

A good sounding record ( Bones Howe worked for Kimberly ) , but not a good record .

I just remember the label as a cheap reissue label (of the type to delete one tune). Did Howe do any original recordings for them?

I couldn't tell you . All I have to go on is the technical boilerplate on Kimberly's rear sleeves which includes the following statement , " The total efforts of Kimberly engineers , headed by Dayton Howe , have achieved a sound acclaimed as superb by critics and record enthusiasts throughout the world "

[Teasing the Korean]

Bumping up this old thread.

While the Kimberly issue credits Wes, the World Pacific release credits him as playing on only "Not Since Nineveh," track 1 on side 2. I'm guessing this was either sloppiness on Kimberly's part, or that they deliberately tried to make buyers think that Wes played throughout the record.

Anyway, this reinforces my earlier comments about Wes being "in a support role." He is barely on the album.

Still it's a great one, whichever label you find it on.

Edited June 12, 2011 by Teasing the Korean

[mikeweil]

Turns out I had both the Pacific Jazz and Kimberley versions on my external hard disc. The Pacific Jazz sounds definitely better, and is much like a Montgomery Brothers session with percussion added - both Roy Harte and Milt Holland are great (Holland was one of my early idols), but it can get to be a bit too much at times. Still, a must for Wes completists.

[Teasing the Korean]

Turns out I had both the Pacific Jazz and Kimberley versions on my external hard disc. The Pacific Jazz sounds definitely better, and is much like a Montgomery Brothers session with percussion added - both Roy Harte and Milt Holland are great (Holland was one of my early idols), but it can get to be a bit too much at times. Still, a must for Wes completists.

I dunno, I think it's a pretty perfect album. It's rare to find a full-on exotica album with that much jazz content, where the tunes go on for 4 or 5 minutes.

[mikeweil]

It's rare to find a full-on exotica album with that much jazz content, where the tunes go on for 4 or 5 minutes.

In that respect, of course, you're perfectly right.

[Jim R]

The Pacific Jazz sounds definitely better, and is much like a Montgomery Brothers session with percussion added

I'm confused... I would have guessed that this is almost what this LP (and the Kimberley LP) are. Not "The Montgomery Brothers" exactly, but The Mastersounds; and not a unique single session, but a compilation of Mastersounds World Pac recordings* (Enchantment/Dance Of The Siamese Children/That Old Devil Moon//Not Since Ninevah/Moonrays/Getting To Know You) with overdubbed percussion. "The Kick" and "Misty" are the only tunes that are not part of the Mastersounds WP discography, afaik. Does anybody have more discographical data on these albums?

...a must for Wes completists.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but if the track(s) with Wes are older recordings with overdubbed percussion, I would have to disagree. I've never seen these listed separately in any discography of Wes. But maybe I'm missing something here.

*Just to be thorough about it, here are the Mastersounds albums that contain the above titles:

Enchantment, Moonray: The Mastersounds Play Horace Silver

Dance Of The Siamese Children, Getting To Know You: The King And I

That Old Devil Moon: Jazz Showcase

Not Since Nineveh: Kismet

[Jim R]

Since TTK's image url seems to have expired, here's an update:

[mikeweil]

Interesting thoughts about the sessions, Jim - I will try to find the time and compare some tracks over the weekend.

[Jim R]

Interesting thoughts about the sessions, Jim - I will try to find the time and compare some tracks over the weekend.

Thanks, Mike.

[mikeweil]

I compared Not Since Niniveh with and without percussion: different takes, definitely, slightly different arrangements and routines, too. I do not have the other Mastersounds albums in question, but it seems like this was not percussion overdubbed to an existsing Mastersounds recording.

[Jim R]

Bumping up this old thread.

While the Kimberly issue credits Wes, the World Pacific release credits him as playing on only "Not Since Nineveh," track 1 on side 2. I'm guessing this was either sloppiness on Kimberly's part, or that they deliberately tried to make buyers think that Wes played throughout the record.

Anyway, this reinforces my earlier comments about Wes being "in a support role." He is barely on the album.

Still it's a great one, whichever label you find it on.

I compared Not Since Niniveh with and without percussion: different takes, definitely, slightly different arrangements and routines, too. I do not have the other Mastersounds albums in question, but it seems like this was not percussion overdubbed to an existsing Mastersounds recording.

Thanks for checking, Mike. I see your point, but based on all I'm reading here, I'm still a bit puzzled. It seems to me that it's more than a coincidence that the only track featuring Wes is "Not Since Nineveh". Among the tracks that I listed as also appearing on Mastersounds LP's, "NSN" (from the "Kismet" LP) is the only one that also featured Wes. To me, this at least suggests that original Mastersounds tracks were overdubbed. I'm now wondering if these could have been Mastersounds alternate takes that were overdubbed. Anyway, I'm actually hoping that I'm wrong.

[Jim R]

Okay, there's definitely more work to do in order to figure this whole thing out, but I did find the following under the Wes Montgomery listings at jazzdisco.org:

The Mastersounds With Wes Montgomery

Buddy Montgomery (vib) Richie Crabtree (p) Wes Montgomery (g) Monk Montgomery (fender b, ldr) Benny Barth (d)

Forum Theatre, Los Angeles, CA, April 22, 1958

Overture: Not Since Nineveh World Pacific WP 1243

Overture: Olive Tree -

Overture: Stranger In Paradise -

Overture: And This Is My Beloved -

Overture: Night Of My Nights -

Overture: Sands Of Time -

Olive Tree -

Not Since Nineveh -

Baubles, Bangles And Beads World Pacific WP 1243; Pacific Jazz PJ 17, PJ 10104; Blue Note BN-LA 531-H2

Fate World Pacific WP 1243

And This Is My Beloved -

Stranger In Paradise World Pacific EP 4-79, WP 1243, JWC 510; Blue Note BN-LA 531-H2

* The Mastersounds - Kismet (World Pacific WP 1243, ST 1243, ST 1010)

= The Mastersounds With Wes Montgomery - Kismet (Pacific Jazz PJ 10130, ST 20130)

* The Montgomery Brothers - Wes, Buddy And Monk Montgomery (Pacific Jazz PJ 17)

* Wes Montgomery - Easy Groove (Pacific Jazz PJ 10104, ST 20104)

* Wes Montgomery - Beginnings (Blue Note BN-LA 531-H2)

* Various Artists - Jazz West Coast, Vol. 4 (World Pacific JWC 510, ST 1009; Vogue (E) LAE 12177)

* The Mastersounds - Kismet (World Pacific EP 4-79)

=====

The Mastersounds With Wes Montgomery plus Roy Harte And Milt Holland

Buddy Montgomery (vib) Richie Crabtree (p) Wes Montgomery (g) Monk Montgomery (fender b, ldr) Benny Barth (d) overdubs: Roy Harte, overdubs: Milt Holland (per)

Forum Theatre, Los Angeles, CA, April 22, 1958

Not Since Nineveh World Pacific WP 1405

* The 44 Instruments Of Roy Harte And Milt Holland - Perfect Percussion (World Pacific WP 1405, ST 1405)

No matrix numbers for the (apparently) two different takes of "Not Since Nineveh"... and no "alternate take" mentioned. And of course, this only pertains to one of the tracks in question.

It would be great if somebody has a complete and proper discography (Bruyninckx, Lord... ?) that explains all this, especially (from my perspective) to indicate the existence of alternate takes from Mastersounds sessions; and to let us know the origins of "Misty" and "The Kick".

[Teasing the Korean]

I have the Percussion album but don't have any of those Mastersounds albums, so I can't compare. (I used to have Kismet but unloaded it). If someone could post audio samples of any of the Mastersounds tracks, or links to Youtube vids, I will compare.

[Jim R]

I have the Percussion album but don't have any of those Mastersounds albums, so I can't compare. (I used to have Kismet but unloaded it). If someone could post audio samples of any of the Mastersounds tracks, or links to Youtube vids, I will compare.

My guess is that trying to compare may prove to be futile, in that all of the other Mastersounds tracks used may also have been alternate takes. But who knows... I'll see if I can find some online sources for comparison.

(...I just realized that there's a share of the "Perfect Percussion" LP available on an online blog, so I'm going to check it out too. Thought maybe this LP was too obscure to be found online, but no. )

[Jim R]

I compared Not Since Niniveh with and without percussion: different takes, definitely, slightly different arrangements and routines, too. I do not have the other Mastersounds albums in question, but it seems like this was not percussion overdubbed to an existsing Mastersounds recording.

Hmm... Mike, with all due respect, I think you're in error. I've downloaded "Perfect Percussion", and I've been comparing the tracks. I began with "enchantment", and found that the P.P. version is an overdubbed version of the original (the easiest way to tell was to compare Buddy's playing at the beginning of the solos section). The P.P. version was edited down to a much shorter length (Buddy's solo is cut off just after the 2:00 minute mark, and Harte and Holland solos are inserted), but the original recording was definitely used as the main structure.

Then, I listened and compared the two versions of "Not Since Nineveh". In this case, not only was the original recording used as a basis for the overdubbing (again, it was obvious when I compared the solos), but the two versions are of identical length, at 7:27.

The only doubt I have is whether you compared the P.P. version to a different version of "Not Since Nineveh" than the one I have. I'll be honest... I've lost track of exactly where mine (an MP3 file in my iTunes library) came from. I have the original "Kismet" LP, but I think my first LP transfer was a rip received from someone else's LP. In an ongoing effort to keep the best-sounding transers in my library, I may have at some point gotten a transfer from a CD release (not sure which one). I also have a separate MP3 (same version, but only 7:25 in length) from Wes' "Fingerpickin'" CD. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm open to the possibility that you have a different original take of NSN, but I'm not sure that one even exists.

I haven't listened to the entire P.P. album yet, but I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that all of the songs recorded by the Mastersounds (and I still have no idea about the origins of "The Kick" or "Misty") were overdubbed from the original versions.

[Jim R]

Mike, perhaps I should also ask... are you sure that the "Perfect Percussion" and "Percussion Unabridged" versions of NSN are the same?

=====

Changing the subject slightly... although I do enjoy P.P. so far, I can't help but wonder how Buddy, Monk, et al felt about having their recordings used for this purpose... and nothing about "The Mastersounds" on the front cover. Are they mentioned on the back cover of either issue? I would certainly think and hope so...

[Teasing the Korean]

Interesting, thanks Jim R!

Yes, the Kimberley and World Pacific albums are identical. I have both.

The musicians are credited individually on both releases, but not as the Mastersounds.

The World Pacific version specifies that Wes plays only on one tune; the Kimberley album credits Wes but does not specify the track.

No idea how the Mastersounds felt about this, but IMO the added percussion makes these tracks much more interesting.