Whether you like it or not,

[dave9199]

This is about my 3rd or 84th post about this since getting the Jack Johnson box, which I'd never heard before then. So I re-read Chambers Milestones chapters that dealt with 1969-75 & he ends the chapter about 1972-75 with this (and this was 1985 this question was posed):

The real questions are so hard that they remain unanswered to this day. Was Davis's direction interesting? And was it productive? Even with a decade of hindsight, those questions have no clear answers.

Perhaps it is still too soon to try to answer them. Perhaps Davos was, as Dizzy Gillespie said, "hooked so far out in front" that ten years is too short for a perspective.

Even though I was a teenager in 1985 and not listening to Davis, I would agree with that statement. But after the 90's and electronica, raves, etc. coming to a more mass market, and now having heard this after all that, it doesn't seem as far out as it, I'm sure, did back then. I think he was pushing people to listen to music differently. Even possibly as background music (dense as it is & no, I'm not talking musak here), which is why I mention electronica. To me, background music doesn't have to be quiet & uncomplicated, it's the same music I listen to as foreground music.

Anywho, here's my question to youse guys: Do you think that enough time has passed for Davis's electric years to be put in a proper perspective; in regard to Davis's own discography and music in general? (This question should count as course credit somewhere)

Extra credit question: Name the song in Davis's discography that is credited with starting this whole era.

Extra extra credit question: What personal event is credited with ending this era?

Good luck!

[A Lark Ascending]

My reaction to electric Miles is very personal; I wouldn't dream of trying to present an objective view.

The first Miles record I bought was Bitches Brew. I was bored by it. A few months later I discovered Kind of Blue and took off on a Davis spree that has yet to abate, steering well away from the post-67 period in the next decade.

In the early 90s for one reason or another I bought 'Files' and 'In a Silent Way' and was overwhelmed by them. Which in turn unlocked Bitches Brew. Since then I've picked up many of the electric albums and enjoy them with varying degrees of enthusiasm.

But what is my assessment now?

Well, it was inevitable and right that Miles explore electric textures from the late 60s. Given his personality and experiences it was inevitable that he also explore the rock-funk world which perhaps seemed more relevant to him than the pure jazz world of the time.

I find myself deeply in love with the electric music of the Silent Way era...and wishing he'd spent more time there. I love the spaceyness, the ambiguity.

Once he moved into the more 'funk' driven electric era I find less of interest there. I can see why he did it, can find lots of interesting and exciting things to listen to. But in the end I find it a bit of a blind alley (I emphasise, for my personal listening taste). I go back to it frequently, but it doesn't convince like the 69, 70 music does.

After the 80s comeback my interest is far less frequently piqued. I like the pop ballads like 'Time After Time' and some of the electric workouts like 'Katia' on 'You're Under Arrest' and I really like 'Heard Round the World.' But again, it doesn't quite convince.

Now this is probably very much the view of a white Englishman but the turn funkwards in the early 70s strikes me as having had a suffocating effect on Davis' music and the whole fusion movement in particular. It's as if one particular strand of possibilities was allowed to dominate over all others.

I know to many this was a good thing...the raising to a very high profile of an element of music they consider highly potent and sociologically very apt.

But to my ears it left a shadow over electric jazz which it has found it very hard to escape from.

I just think that there were other routes to take with electric jazz but somehow the 'funk route' seemed to have a magnetic pull that seemed almost impossible for musicians to resist.

[JSngry]

Anywho, here's my question to youse guys: Do you think that enough time has passed for Davis's electric years to be put in a proper perspective; in regard to Davis's own discography and music in general? (This question should count as course credit somewhere)

Extra credit question: Name the song in Davis's discography that is credited with starting this whole era.

Extra extra credit question: What personal event is credited with ending this era?

#1 - Definitely. Whether they HAVE been or not remains to be seen, but certainly enough time has passed for a clearheaded evaluation of the music. Unfortunately, so many people felt "betrayed" by this music (which was entirely THEIR problem if you ask me) that it's gotten all these labels on it that do the cause of an objective musical anaylsis much harm. But the tide is turning, and now that musically astute people without the baggage of that sense of betrayal, the HORROR that it wasn't about "ching ching-a ching" (no matter HOW abstracted) any more (and Chambers falls into this camp so hard that the floor is indented where he landed), the real content of this music is now being appreciated and critiqued on its own terms. "Bout time, if you ask me.

#2 - People usually credit IN A SILENT WAY or BITCHES BREW, but I tend to give FILLES DE KILLAMANJARO the nod as to where the esthetic crossed the "point of no return". I suppose the case for MILES IN THE SKY could be made, but that sounds more like a testing of the waters to me, like nobody's REALLY convinced yet. But by FILLES, all hands are on board.

Now if you're talking pure electricity as far as overall sound, BREW is actually a surprisingly ACCOUSTIC sounding album to me. FILLMORE is where the electric-ness of it all comes to the fore, but that album is very much an extension of the "Lost Quintet" musically. LIVE-EVIL, even though Michael Henderson is on board, still sounds like the aesthetic is "solocentric" to some degree, so the electification of the instuments is towards THAT end, rather than that of creating an entire unified GROUP sound. Truthfully, I think that ON THE CORNER was the first album that got that groove where you felt like you were in an alternative, electric universe, and the following albums and live gigs went from there, abeit in a somewhat more conspicuously "groove" oriented manner. This is the final "electronic jungle" period, and those recordings bear, demand almost, very close listening and, perhaps, an adjustment of the listener's expectations and foci. It truly is GROUP music, and in some ways, the most "radical" music of Miles' career.

#3 - From what I can gather, Miles, for reasons both within his personal control and outside of it, got sick. And tired. And sick and tired. So he chilled for a while, and just sorta went with that. Apparently Sly Stone was a role model for Miles in things other than music, but true to form, Miles got off the mat before the 10 count, and answered the bell for the next round.

[Guy Berger]

But the tide is turning, and now that musically astute people without the baggage of that sense of betrayal, the HORROR that it wasn't about "ching ching-a ching" (no matter HOW abstracted) any more (and Chambers falls into this camp so hard that the floor is indented where he landed)

By the way, it's interesting that despite his heavy bias against the electric music (he also has a bias against the 2nd Quintet music), Chambers is capable of giving credit to it. He has good stuff to say about Filles, In a Silent Way, and Bitches Brew. He becomes stingier with the later stuff, but realizes how visionary "Rated X" was.

Guy

[jazzbo]

I've been living with this music for a looooooooong time as Jim has, and I pretty much have the same opinions about it that he has.

I got in on the ground floor with Filles, In A Silent Way and Miles at Filmore. I can still remember what it felt like to buy Live/Evil when it was released and just FREAK at the sound. And then to see the "In Concert" band on the TV and finally be SEEING this stuff. And then to listen to "He Loved Him Madly" in a darkened room and just marvel. This electric Miles up to 1975 is a deep river in me of music memory and enjoyment.

These recordings were what led me to jazz, following Miles and Wynton Kelly to so many great recordings, and seriously listening again and again to Duke because Miles gave him so much gravity and finally being swallowed by Duke's and Strays' musical world. I owe this music a TON.

[A Lark Ascending]

"He Loved Him Madly" is my favorite post-Bitches Brew piece. Quite different from anything else I've heard from that time.

[dave9199]

Just want to sat JSngry, close on both extra credit questions, but not quite. And if my answers aren't right, then what are my answers to these questions?

[Tom Storer]

#2 - [...] Now if you're talking pure electricity as far as overall sound, BREW is actually a surprisingly ACCOUSTIC sounding album to me. FILLMORE is where the electric-ness of it all comes to the fore, but that album is very much an extension of the "Lost Quintet" musically. LIVE-EVIL, even though Michael Henderson is on board, still sounds like the aesthetic is "solocentric" to some degree, so the electification of the instuments is towards THAT end, rather than that of creating an entire unified GROUP sound. Truthfully, I think that ON THE CORNER was the first album that got that groove where you felt like you were in an alternative, electric universe, and the following albums and live gigs went from there, abeit in a somewhat more conspicuously "groove" oriented manner. This is the final "electronic jungle" period, and those recordings bear, demand almost, very close listening and, perhaps, an adjustment of the listener's expectations and foci. It truly is GROUP music, and in some ways, the most "radical" music of Miles' career.

Very perceptive comments, as usual. I was a teenager getting into jazz during the mid-70's, and electric Miles was like nothing else I was hearing. I saw the band with Dominique Gaumont, Pete Cosey, Michael Henderson et al. at Carnegie Hall a year or less before Miles's 1975 drop-out, and was both mystified and completely fascinated. I listened to "Bitches Brew" and "Big Fun" a lot, but like Bev it was "He Loved Him Madly" that struck me most. I liked a lot of the nascent fusion music - Headhunters, Return to Forever, Weather Report and so on - but as fun and funky as it was, it didn't have the same depth. New technology notwithstanding, it was still about neat arrangements, catchy rhythms and melodies, and the cult of the heroic soloist. The Miles of those years was another world altogether.

The post-1980 Miles, of course, was something else again. I'm glad he came out of retirement and got back to work, but I confess I think the post-1980 part of his career is the least interesting.

[Guy Berger]

Anywho, here's my question to youse guys: Do you think that enough time has passed for Davis's electric years to be put in a proper perspective; in regard to Davis's own discography and music in general? (This question should count as course credit somewhere)

Extra credit question: Name the song in Davis's discography that is credited with starting this whole era.

Extra extra credit question: What personal event is credited with ending this era?

1) Yeah, I think enough time has passed. It started in the 80s but I think the fact that we are seeing some of today's young lions trying to come to terms with this music is pretty remarkable.

2) I'd guess either "Circle in the Round" (which was his first 60s recording to feature electric guitar) or "Water in the Pond" (which was the first to feature electric keyboards). Both were recorded in late '67. Some people point to "Eighty One" (from ESP), but it's more boogaloo than rock.

3) His hip problems, I think.

Guy

[dave9199]

GUY WINS!!!

I was looking for Circle In The Round & hip problems.

By the way, I also feel the same about He Loved Him Madly, but noticed that Chambers does not like it (too long). Another reason I feel listening habits have changed is the playing time of CDs. I'm reminded of reading about Joe Strummer of The Clash talking about the 3 record Sandanista saying he hoped that people would listen to it differently; rather than from start to finish, bounce around or a side at a time. Clearly programming a CD or random play does just that. I think it's helped albums like Sandanista & Miles electric recordings.

Edited October 27, 2003 by dave9199

[Little High People]

i haven't really checked out much 80's stuff save for "aura" (which is great) ... but it think the reason that most of his 80's stuff falls flat for a lot of people is because ... how could he possibly follow the type of music he was making at the time of his retirement? some of the most progressive sounds i have ever heard ... where could one go after "pangaea" "agharta?"

[HWright]

Greetings. I am the same HWright from the BN Board, the one who very rarely posted...I've been reading this Board for some time but only joined today...

Maybe this has been covered elsewhere on the Board, but I'd just like to add that for those interested in the electric period of Miles, I highly recommend picking up a copy of Paul Tingen's new book "Miles Beyond: The electric explorations

of Miles Davis 1967-1991" (just came out in paperback in the USA). As much as I enjoy Chambers, Carr and the other older Miles books, Tingen's book is a must because he is the first writer to do new and different research on the most controversial period of Miles' career. Chambers, as far as I know did all his research in the library and Carr only interviewed certain people. Examples: (1) Tingen interviewed people other than Keith Jarrett about the 1970/71 group! (2) He interviewed members of the "On the Corner" sessions and (3) spoke with people in the "Agharta" group as well. It's still a fairly small book and has it quirks (chiefly philosophical), but it's a worthwhile addition to any Miles critical library. Favorite insight from the book: he says that Miles' first solo on "Bitches Brew" (the track) is a quote/parody of Blood, Sweat and Tears' hit "Spinning Wheel."

Tingen also has a website for his book, although apart from having better photos, it's no real substitute for the book itself:

http://www.miles-beyond.com/

His book went to press just as the "In a Silent Way" box was coming out and before the "Jack Johnson" box was available for preview, so he doesn't deal in much detail with the unreleased material from that period, but he does comment on the "Bitches Brew" box set. On his site he promises in 2004 an updated sessionography taking into account these recent developments.

[Rooster_Ties]

[jazzbo]

RT: very c oo l image; thanks for posting that, it makes a point doesn't it?

And HWright: WELCOME! I agree, Tingen's book is very very interesting for fans of this music!

[HWright]

Thanks!

Just to put my own views on Miles' electric years, I like everything up to and including "Jack Johnson" (contrary to Tingen, by the way, I think that even if some of the "new" material on the Miles box sets is less than first class, it all merits release and can hardly tarnish the reputation of Miles or anyone else involved in the sessions, no matter what Teo or anybody else says), but have mixed feelings about what came after that.

I've been giving a number of the '70's recordings a second chance in recent years but so far only "On the Corner" has been rehabilitated. I bought "In Concert" and "Dark Magus" when they were reissued a few years back (around the same time as the Filmore discs and "Live/Evil") and found them both unlistenable for the most part. I've always meant to pick up "Agharta" (I did listen to it in the library), but put it off so long that now I'm waiting for a new edition.

[John L]

This is a very interesting thread with a lot of thought-provoking comments.

Miles during these years becomes a personal thing. It is still very hard to give an objective assessment as to where all of this astonishing electric music stands relative to the earlier triumphs.

As a personal thing, I enjoy Miles immensely through about the time that the Jack Johnson box ends. When Miles got into the wah wahs, the thick multiple guitar backdrop, and added percussion, and when the groove itself seemed to become the focus, as opposed to Miles blowing the blues over a funky backbeat (i.e. Jack Johnson), my soul begins to abandon ship. On the Corner, In Concert, Agartha, Pangaea, and Dark Mangus may be great masterworks. But they will never mean as much to me personally as most of the rest of Miles' discography, including even the highly uneven results of his last decade.

[DrJ]

I'm still exploring the years in question, which is exciting - I am such a huge Davis fan and want to really savor this stuff, so I am listening to a little bit more each year, over time.

Love FILLES, and IN A SILENT WAY. BITCHES BREW so far strikes me as one of his more overrated entries...not that I dislike it actively but honestly after those other two I've just mentioned, it somehow never seems to fully come together, the others seemed so much more fully realized. I have to give it a lot more attention though before making any kind of fixed assessment. LIVE-EVIL is fearsome, just a staggeringly powerful and great recording. I cannot wait for the full story with the upcoming vault material issue.

My most recent foray into Electric Miles is GET UP WITH IT, which I just picked up last weekend. I have to say I am enjoying it immensely, and would rate it very highly indeed so far. "He Loved Him Madly," as someone else has pointed out above, is fascinating and quite unique....loving "Rated X" so far too, probably because it dates from the LIVE-EVIL era (I think...the discographical details can get a bit confusing around this time).

Still so much more to explore...will be picking up the JACK JOHNSON box soon, and then there's the other live albums that have been reissued, and AGHARTA and PANGEA, and ON THE CORNER...all brave new worlds.

[Guy Berger]

loving "Rated X" so far too, probably because it dates from the LIVE-EVIL era (I think...the discographical details can get a bit confusing around this time).

"Rated X" is from around the same time as On the Corner (1972).

Guy

[dave9199]

I, too, am relistening to On The Corner & Get Up With It. Still like 'em both and only a couple obervations/complants; the album On The Corner, for me, get dull with Helen Butte/Freedom X as I've already shaken my groove thing to 20 minutes of On The Corner, et al. And what do people hear on Rated X that's so great? I get real annoyed with this song because of the keyboards being soooooo loud in the mix and I know I like what I can hear under it. Is the vinyl version less bright (those high notes make my eyeballs hurt )? I can't get past that and the track itself sounds really rocking.

[jazzbo]

I've had about eight versions of Get Up With It over the years! The lps are NOT going to sound bright like the American cds do. The two Japanese versions that I have (yes, two: I have the DSD remaster from a few years ago and the previous remaster from about a year before that) both sound very good and are NOT as bright on my system as the American cds (especially so the older Sony remastering, the one right before the DSD remastering).

[Bright Moments]

[Apparently Sly Stone was a role model for Miles in things other than music

can you expound on this please?

[JSngry]

[7/4]

Whatta hoot!

[DrJ]

Ah, in relooking at my CD liners, I was getting confused about the vintage of "Rated X" - thanks for setting it straight, I had looked inadvertently at the vintage for "Honky Tonk" (which I'm digging too, a LOT, maybe even more than "Rated X").

[HWright]

I decided I couldn't wait any longer to hear "Agharta" again and bought the current edition of it and listened to it last night. On the whole I like it a lot more now than I did some ten years ago when I first listened to it in the music library when I was in college--it's very listenable, especially when compared to the live recordings from 1970-1973. Michael Henderson's bass playing seems the main improvement over the live recordings from 1973. In addition, the guitarists seem more coordinated and Sonny Fortune seems to be able to assert himself more than Dave Lieberman did (in that respect he reminds me of Gary Bartz on "Live/Evil"). That said, some of the tracks go on a bit long and when I listen to more than one of them in a row I understand why some find this music ultimately boring.