Jazz magazines bad for jazz?

[ghost of miles]

I'm going to post a link to this on the Night Lights site, but thought I'd post it here as well:

Jazz magazines bad for jazz?

...the writing and argument is a little rough around the edges, but it's a provocative point (and one I'd guess that some here share, based on prior posts). The author holds up Signal to Noise as an example of something better--calling Clem! These days, I think some of the more quality jazz writing is sometimes found online--Marc Myers for classic jazz at Jazzwax, Ethan Iverson at Do the Math for both modern and classic, or Larry Kart's posts here at Organissimo.

Edited October 27, 2008 by ghost of miles

[sheldonm]

...other than the author of the story....any idea who Anthony Medici is???

[ghost of miles]

...other than the author of the story....any idea who Anthony Medici is???

Nope--not sure if he works for the PREX store or just blogs for its site.

I tend to be a mushy liberal about this stuff. DB and JT are the jazz-media establishment, such as it is, for sure. I subscribe to them both, just like the author of the article, and while I think some of his criticism is on-target (and some unsubstantiated...the Koransky rap, for instance, is basically just "I don't know who this dude is," without delving into the quality of editorial work), I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say that the jazz world would be better off without both magazines. (Not that he says that, exactly, but he does cast them as having a negative impact on jazz itself.) It's been said before, but jazz is a narrowly-circumscribed economic world, and such circumstances probably do lead to more of a tame, somewhat rah-rah approach to reporting and criticism. It's also really hard to do good writing about jazz (as a whole thread here attests)--I have boundless admiration for those like Larry, Mark Stryker, Jim Sangrey, and others who do it with force and insight. And while the author rightfully cites some of the "Golden Age" jazz writing of yore, I've come across plenty of dud/lame reviews in 1950s/60s issues of DB as well here at the IU music library. Larry could offer much better illumination on all of this.

[Lazaro Vega]

I don't agree with this writer about David Sanborn. Haven't read the pieces he flambes, but if they contend that David Sanborn is the real deal I'd agree with that. And Sanborn has made some records I'm not real keen on, and others, even in the pop vien, which are a gas. Sanborn isn't a purely jazz saxophonist, but he's a damn good saxophonist. He's not a great improvisor but he has a great sound and can hit a groove. His ability to play the blues has always been part of his approach so the new CD dedicated to Hank Crawford isn't some weazle money grab but a return to roots and, seems to me, a sincere tribute. Then there's the records he made with Zorn. Having had the pleasure of interviewing Sanborn, despite what I might think of some of his Warner Brothers mid-1980's disco influenced records, there's no doubt he's a musician first, "commodity" second.

[Chuck Nessa]

Who pays attention to these mags anymore?

[Man with the Golden Arm]

I don't agree with this writer about David Sanborn. Haven't read the pieces he flambes, but if they contend that David Sanborn is the real deal I'd agree with that. And Sanborn has made some records I'm not real keen on, and others, even in the pop vien, which are a gas. Sanborn isn't a purely jazz saxophonist, but he's a damn good saxophonist. He's not a great improvisor but he has a great sound and can hit a groove. His ability to play the blues has always been part of his approach so the new CD dedicated to Hank Crawford isn't some weazle money grab but a return to roots and, seems to me, a sincere tribute. Then there's the records he made with Zorn. Having had the pleasure of interviewing Sanborn, despite what I might think of some of his Warner Brothers mid-1980's disco influenced records, there's no doubt he's a musician first, "commodity" second.

Sure wished he had ... I think only live ... but there's this!

exit stage left

[7/4]

What records he made with Zorn? I don't think there are any. Zorn was on Night Music and Sanborn (I think) played Spy vs. Spy (Ornette tunes) live, maybe once.

.

[Lazaro Vega]

Right. Sorry -- thought I'd heard something in the stacks here, though Spy vs Spy is Tim Berne, and Sanborn is not on Naked Lunch, which I was thinking he was. Nor Mickey Spilaine. The point is, though, that they worked together, not something I could see Najee doing (the Naj can play with organ trios, but I don't see him taking it out). If someone wants to say there's more to David Sanborn than money grabbing, that he's a more substaintial musician than some of the weaker records he's issued, it wouldn't lead me to torpedo the magazine that said it. Plenty of better examples, I suppose.

[Soul Stream]

Like most music magazines.... Downbeat and Jazztimes center their coverage around new releases. I don't see anything wrong with that. Return To Forever's reunion is a valid story. I just don't subscribe to theory that they're bad for jazz. They cover the middle of the road stuff that the average jazz fan reads, Jazztimes in a more lightweight, smooth jazz way. I leave it to other magazines I personally dig more to bring me MY stories...like Waxpoetics. Wax has offered huge stories on McGriff, Bernard Purdie, Sam Rivers and in the current issue Grant Green. They blow Downbeat away in covering those, non-new-release/we-need-a-reason-to-write-a-story stories.

So, yeah, I don't agree with the premise. DB and JT could be MUCH better at what they do, and have been that way in the past I guess. Just my lil' ol' opinion.

[7/4]

Right. Sorry -- thought I'd heard something in the stacks here, though Spy vs Spy is Tim Berne, and Sanborn is not on Naked Lunch, which I was thinking he was. Nor Mickey Spilaine.

Zorn isn't on Naked Lunch either. It's a Howard Shore soundtrack with Ornette.

(I hope you don't think I'm bustin' yer chops. Whatever...)

edit: reminds me of the time I wrote that Ornette was on Conference of the Birds.

Edited October 28, 2008 by 7/4

[7/4]

I'm not sure his blogging is good for Jazz, blogging or the Princeton Record Exchange.

[Lazaro Vega]

That was a typo: Naked City.

[7/4]

I promise I won't hold it against you Lazaro.

.

[Nate Dorward]

Sanborn is on a Tim Berne disc. See the current thread on unexpected sideman appearances.

I'm pleased if Medici is keen on the cyrrent STN as I've been working hard to smooth out the prose in the review section since #50, as assistant copyeditor, & I think Pete has really been on a roll lately in terms of getting interesting, non-predictable articles for the the front. The 50 Objects of Musical Desire issue was a classic, & I also liked the WFMU feature among other recent pieces. Next ish is in editing & typesetting right now & is well up to snuff.

[AllenLowe]

I like S to N, only read Downbeat and Jazz Times on occassion to get some sense of what some people might be doing (they had a decent cover story with Shipp a few months ago; I told Shipp that I only buy it when he's on the cover; hence it's a rarity) - the jazz mags have always been problematic, to say the least - by the way, in your praise of critics here, don't forget Chris Albertson of the old Saturday Review - and let's also not forget what the Voice formerly was, with Giddins and than Francis Davis, also, on the other side, Christgau - I used to read Milo Miles in the NY Times, but he has not done anything there in a LONG time; there is good writing on line with Myers/Iverson et al. Personally I'm worn out from writing about the music, and generally shy away from reviewing contemporaries for the reason of conflict of interest. Once I've met and liked or disliked a musician personally, I cannot be honest and/or objective. Also, jazz book writing, particularly on the academic side, is just as bad as the mags, if for different reasons -

Dick Katz once wrote a fairly critical piece on Benny Carter for the old Jazz Review. He told me that a lot of years later he worked with Carter and kept thinking "jeez, I hope he didn't read that damned article I wrote."

Edited October 28, 2008 by AllenLowe

[Teasing the Korean]

Who pays attention to these mags anymore?

That's an excellent question. As popular culture has fragmented into increasing numbers of subcultures, people who are into specific genres seem to have less time and patience for the bloviaters of yore. These types of magazines seem to be based on the old model.

Also, with message boards and online reviews, people can get an idea real quickly about where they want to explore.

[BillF]

Who pays attention to these mags anymore?

That's an excellent question. As popular culture has fragmented into increasing numbers of subcultures, people who are into specific genres seem to have less time and patience for the bloviaters of yore. These types of magazines seem to be based on the old model.

Also, with message boards and online reviews, people can get an idea real quickly about where they want to explore.

Yes, as far as I'm concerned, the Down Beat, Metronome, Jazz Journal, Melody Maker and New Musical Express of my youth have been replaced by the online culture of this forum and blogs by people like Ted Gioia, Marc Myers and David Brent Johnson (ghost of miles).

[Guest Bill Barton]

Hmmmm... I just now noticed this thread. This (now infamous) blogger's post was put up on The Jazz Programmers List too and my response perhaps ruffled a few feathers over there. I agree that the "slick" mags are just a tad bit too beholdin' to corporate interests and advertisers' pet musicians to be taken very seriously most of the time. I don't agree that they're necessarily "bad for jazz."

Occasionally I read Down Beat and Jazz Times at the library and have to say that the last DB wasn't bad at all. They have their place. I haven't subscribed to Down Beat for years and never subscribed to Jazz Times (back in the early Ira Sabin days when it was Radio Free Jazz I did subscribe.)

As STN has already been plugged nicely here let me put in a word for CODA. After a period of time when it was getting pretty slim (literally) it's definitely on the upswing under the leadership of editor Andrew Scott. If you're looking for exhaustive in-depth journalism check out the Calvin Jackson feature in issue 340 (August-September 2008). I'd never heard of nor heard Jackson but after reading this feature I know a lot about him. It's too bad CODA doesn't have distribution in the U.S.A. anymore. The only way to snag a copy is to subscribe.

[ghost of miles]

The editor of JazzTimes wrote a response on JPL and gave me permission to post it at the Night Lights site:

JazzTimes editor responds to PREX critique

[7/4]

The editor of JazzTimes wrote a response on JPL and gave me permission to post it at the Night Lights site:

JazzTimes editor responds to PREX critique

[Bol]

I too find the two main magazines -- JT & DB -- frustrating and rarely worth reading. There seems to be way too much emphasis on reminders of past glories, and too little on what is going on currently -- esp. the avant garde. I do not understand the coverage of cool jazz -- does anyone really like that stuff seriously enough to want to read about it? And the writing and the thinking in review sections -- which are my main interests -- can often be downright wretched. Even when they are not horrible, reviews are often 80% history and very little real reactions to/assessment of the relevant music. It's almost as if someone told these writers: "Just the facts, ma'am!" My guess is that these magazines do not have the resources of magazines like Gramophone. But does the quality have to be so much inferior? Gramophone has its faults, including its overemphasis on singers. But one can actually learn from their reviews and articles. The reviewers actually dissect and raise questions about musical decisions that performers make. And in terms of the new recordings it reviews, Gramophone is much more adventurous and wide-ranging in its respective genre (classical) then the two jazz magazines. I wonder whether having a jazz magazine equivalent of Gramophone would be infeasible. I would think that Dan Warburton with more resources could do it.

By the way, I notice a similar (though perhaps not as wide) disparity in the quality in the writings of classical music and jazz review writing in the NYT. Maybe jazz is too young an art for it to attract very good writers. But I would think that having jazz writers who are not also reviewing pop music would help. Ratliff and Chinen, who do cover some pop music, seem to gravitate towards the most commercial of jazz musicians and ignore many more interesting ones in NYC.

[Christiern]

Bol: "Ratliff and Chinen, who do cover some pop music, seem to gravitate towards the most commercial of jazz musicians and ignore many more interesting ones in NYC."

The NY Times jazz coverage has been diluted in recent years. I think it took a deep plunge with Ratliff, whose scope seems limited and antennae are clearly picking up J@LC.