good riddance to record stores ?

[sidewinder]

I read recently that the chap at Rays has been let go by Foyles. I'm not sure if that means the shop too.

I was at Ray's on Sunday Nov 23. The coffee shop has indeed taken all the floor in that part of the first floor, but as far as I know they've moved the records upstairs to the music section, which they are re-arranging (that affects to the remainders and second-hand books room too, IIRC).

The expansion of the coffee shop and moving the records upstairs makes perfect sense to me.

F

Yes, I can see the sense in that. Getting a seat in the coffee shop was always a challenge at the best of times. I just hope that the music section is allowed to establish its footing in the upstairs location. London definitely needs its sole remaining specialist jazz outlet.

As for the coffee shop - I was sat there once one Saturday staring out of the window with my cappuchino and hundreds of naked cyclists on a demo went past. Nearly dropped my cup !

[BruceH]

I still like record/CD stores. Still like physically looking at, and even touching, things.

Hopelessy 20th-century of me, I know.

[Hot Ptah]

I wonder if there are differences between the U.S. and Europe on this subject. From what I can tell, people in the U.S. certainly do a lot of shopping online, for a variety of products, but there is still a big demand for physical stores too. Some of the smarter, better music stores seem to be surviving in the U.S. There are still a lot of people buying CDs.

One example is the Barnes and Noble store on the Plaza in Kansas City. It has three levels of books and a basement level with CDs and DVDs. The selection of CDs, including classical and jazz, is quite good and deep. The staff is very knowledgeable and helpful. They have lots of customers whenever I go down there. CDs seem to fly out of the racks--if I hesitate and don't buy something it is usually gone the next time I go in. The customers are not all middle aged and older, by any means.

I think that there will be a mix of CD sales and downloading for some time yet. Downloading music may turn out to be the way of the future. On the other hand, I distinctly remember when books were going to be passe and all of our reading was going to be online. The San Francisco library disposed of a lot of books after converting their contents to digital media, to be on top of the new bookless trend. That never happened.

There are a significant number of people like me who like to be able to look at the personnel, song composers, even liner notes, when listening to music, which up to now is not that easy with downloading. To me, that would be the next hurdle to get another large group of people to download regularly.

Another analogy--why does anyone buy physical DVDs anymore? It is so much easier to digitally download TV shows and movies from your TV and store them. But lots of people still want their DVDs.

[A Lark Ascending]

I live in a city ( Truro ) that used to have four decent record shops with a degree of specialisation ( this is about three years ago ).

When I was in Truro in the summer I was disappointed to see the one up from the Cathedral (beyond Smiths)...I think it was called Solo or Opus...had gone. It was there two years previously!

However, in Exeter a few days earlier I'd noticed the shop in the same chain was on its last legs (a whole floor cleared, just a scattering of CDs in the upstairs part). The Classical shop opposite was still going.

Nottingham had a fabulous classical shop until about two years ago - I believe it was a front for a mail order company, Europadisc. The mail order firm still advertises in Gramophone but the costs of keeping a shop open were clearly prohibitive.

Interesting that the places classical shops seem to survive are the more quaint, university type towns - Cambridge, Oxford, Bath, York. Sheffield had a couple that really struggled, moved premises and then vanished all together. Not enough old fashioned dons in Sheffield!

I imagine 'Record Collector' in the Broomhill suburb of Sheffield still survives - it balanced new with used discs and had a substantial jazz and classical section, though there didn't seem to be much of a system to what they had. It was in the heart of student bedsit land so did well from that market - are students still buying CDs?

***********

My own town - Worksop - is a small market town. When I moved here in 1991 you could buy CDs in Woolworths and Smiths; there was a chain store called Our Price which, although not wonderful, was no worse than the HMVs in the big cities now. There were a couple of rock/pop independents. And, best of all, a music shop that majored in musical instruments and sheet music but also had a good classical CD collection.

All that survives is Woollies and Smiths stocking the top 20 albums and TV advertised things; and the out of town supermarkets stocking much the same.

[BillF]

All that survives is Woollies

???

[six string]

One of my favorite record shop and tourist experiences ever was in Paris. [...] He took me to a shop that only sold jazz but I can't remember the name of the shop.

When was that, six string? The last time I remember there being a jazz-only record shop in Paris--other than second-hand, that is--was back in the eighties when there was a shop called Pannonica on the rue Racine, near the Odéon theater. I think they were gone before the CD age arrived.

It was June 1998. I was Paris for less than 24 hours so I don't have a lot of information about location other than my friend was staying in the Latin Quarter and we walked to this record store. It was a small shop and I seem to recall that the building itself was just the shop. It wasn't part of a larger building. I know this doesn't help but I wasn't paying that close attention to those kinds of things that day. The shop definitely had cds as well as lps.

Now that I think about it, it might be possible that it wasn't all jazz. It was at least predominantly jazz. It was such a small shop and all I remember seeing was jazz, but it's possible that I have overstated that point.

Edited December 2, 2008 by six string

[A Lark Ascending]

I wonder if there are differences between the U.S. and Europe on this subject.

I think you might be right - though the difference lies not so much in what we'd like as in what is there.

There is no shortage of new shopping 'malls' springing up in the UK. But every one has the same stores and dedicated music shops are not part of the equation. If there is a record store it tends to be one of the big chains - HMV, Zavvi - who can afford the rents.

Two years ago I would not have believed anyone if they'd told me I would be buying almost exclusively online and increasingly by download. Record shopping was a major recreational activity for me! The fact that I have completely changed my pattern is a result of two things:

a) Sheer disappointment when visiting record shops in Nottingham. Sheffield and beyond.

b) Trying to find copies of the 3 Chandos CDs of John Ireland's piano music, long OOP, a couple of years back. I stumbled on the Chandos download site where they had their entire deleted catalogue available. Now if there is anything going to test my patience its a dodgy recording of classical piano music, but these three came through effortlessly. My fear of downloading was overcome. And joining E-music got rid of the final doubts.

I had a few disappointments in the early days. But I only have two gripes now. Every now and then I'll download something where tracks flow from one to the next and, despite using the gapless function there's a tiny pause. Doesn't happen much but when it does it's maddening.

The other is having the libretto for an opera recording. I can live without most packaging but I do like to follow the storyline of an opera - impossible without a libretto even if (especially if?) it's in English.

Actually there's a third factor which is more a consequence of the first two - I'm relishing the time I've regained on a Saturday to do things instead of shopping! Listening to music is one thing that has benefitted.

Edited December 2, 2008 by Bev Stapleton

[A Lark Ascending]

All that survives is Woollies

???

Good point!

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I live in a city ( Truro ) that used to have four decent record shops with a degree of specialisation ( this is about three years ago ).

When I was in Truro in the summer I was disappointed to see the one up from the Cathedral (beyond Smiths)...I think it was called Solo or Opus...had gone. It was there two years previously!

However, in Exeter a few days earlier I'd noticed the shop in the same chain was on its last legs (a whole floor cleared, just a scattering of CDs in the upstairs part). The Classical shop opposite was still going.

Nottingham had a fabulous classical shop until about two years ago - I believe it was a front for a mail order company, Europadisc. The mail order firm still advertises in Gramophone but the costs of keeping a shop open were clearly prohibitive.

Interesting that the places classical shops seem to survive are the more quaint, university type towns - Cambridge, Oxford, Bath, York. Sheffield had a couple that really struggled, moved premises and then vanished all together. Not enough old fashioned dons in Sheffield!

I imagine 'Record Collector' in the Broomhill suburb of Sheffield still survives - it balanced new with used discs and had a substantial jazz and classical section, though there didn't seem to be much of a system to what they had. It was in the heart of student bedsit land so did well from that market - are students still buying CDs?

***********

My own town - Worksop - is a small market town. When I moved here in 1991 you could buy CDs in Woolworths and Smiths; there was a chain store called Our Price which, although not wonderful, was no worse than the HMVs in the big cities now. There were a couple of rock/pop independents. And, best of all, a music shop that majored in musical instruments and sheet music but also had a good classical CD collection.

All that survives is Woollies and Smiths stocking the top 20 albums and TV advertised things; and the out of town supermarkets stocking much the same.

I found a great shop in Birmingham in 1990, when I was there on a course. Stacks of jazz vinyl, though I don't think jazz was all they had. Not laid out in bins - on shelves like we file them at home, so you had to browse by looking at the spines. It was the last time I went to Birmingham for several years and, on my next visit, got lost and couldn't find the place. It was called "The Diskery" and was in Bromsgrove Street (still have their label on one of the items I bought - should have taken the album with me on my return ) Anyone know that one?

MG

[captainwrong]

I think that the reality is that retail music stores are in a difficult period. If there are still unique, excellent stores anywhere, which give pleasure to some music lovers, the next issue is whether they should be celebrated for what they are, or attacked and condemned as unwelcome relics of a previous age.

I guess I don't understand the need to condemn such places and argue that they need to go out of business for the greater good. I have detected more than a hint of such thinking on this thread. What is the harm of the continued existence of such places?

I don't subscribe to any 'deserve to die' thesis. I loved record shops in their heyday.

I do feel the are economically unviable. The market for physical product will be twofold:

a) Roughly the 25+ age range who are avid music enthusiasts, a small proportion of that total population.

b) Those in the 25+ age range who have only a little interest in music and tend to buy the big sellers; buying a CD out of a rack remains an easier way of acquiring the odd recording if the mysteries of downloading or online purchasing are too much.

CDs will continue to be made as long as group b) are demanding them - but they can be distributed from supermarkets. In much the same way as you can still buy film for cameras because people like my mum can't understand how you can take a picture any other way.

Given the business practices of the majors in recent years I cannot see any effort being expended to satisfy group a) (that's us!).

*****************

As for condemning, any criticism of physical stores here is as nothing compared with the regular assertions levelled at download quality (in the last few days I saw 'crappy MP3s' stated as a fact). This, ignoring the rapid strides being made technologically in creating downloads. It reminds me of those who continue to deny the quality of CD next to vinyl because they heard some lazy transfers in the 80s. Things have moved on. I suspect any difference between a CD and a lossless download falls into the world of sticking your CDs in the fridge or colouring the edges with marker and convincing yourself they sound better (whatever happened to reversing polarity, by the way?).

It's one thing to say you like the feel, packaging of a CD and the experience of buying it in a store. But there is often a subtext that this is a better way of acquiring music that will consequently survive once the current fad passes. In my view, it's sad to see a much enjoyed way of acquiring music pass; but I look to the new opportunities opened by the new ways. Travelling by car clearly misses out on many of the experiences of travelling by stage coach; but it also offers new possibilities. It means the staging inns must adapt or close; but that is the nature of change.

*****************

This is an excellent post and an excellent analogy. Pretty much sums up everything I was trying to say earlier, but much better.

[Hot Ptah]

I wonder if the better analogy is train travel. Everyone traveled by train at one time. Then came the auto and the airplane, and many people switched and never rode on a train again. But some continue to do so, and to find it useful and even enjoyable. Some parts of the world have better train systems and stations, and more convenient lines. Some demographic groups are more likely to ride trains now than others.

I think that this may be like buying CDs (train travel) vs. the auto and airplane (downloads).

The train travel analogy can go one step further. At one time train travel was luxurious, then it became more utilitarian, functional, stark. Much like the change from the LP, with its wonderful artwork, gatefolds, expansive liner notes, the quaint pleasure of two distinct sides to the music, which changed to the CD, with its microscopic notes and shrunken artwork.

Edited December 2, 2008 by Hot Ptah

[Dan Gould]

As for condemning, any criticism of physical stores here is as nothing compared with the regular assertions levelled at download quality (in the last few days I saw 'crappy MP3s' stated as a fact). This, ignoring the rapid strides being made technologically in creating downloads. It reminds me of those who continue to deny the quality of CD next to vinyl because they heard some lazy transfers in the 80s. Things have moved on. I suspect any difference between a CD and a lossless download falls into the world of sticking your CDs in the fridge or colouring the edges with marker and convincing yourself they sound better (whatever happened to reversing polarity, by the way?).

MP3 downloads are compressed and lossy. They do not match up to CDs or CDRs burned from lossless files. These are facts, even if downloads are less "crappy" than before, they will always be a degraded representation of the source tracks. RDK posted a link to one piece of software, there are others that demonstrate quite graphically what a compressed MP3 looks like vs what an uncompressed, lossless audio wave looks like.

[six string]

One would think that if it's not possible now, someone should be working on making d/l music the same quality as mfgrd cds. Unless the industry is just waiting on us old farts to shut up and die. I would be ok with d/l music if everyone could raise their bar a little and make it consistent across the boards. Most sights that offer d/l music are compressed mp3s. I'm never going to buy those. With all the ipods out there full of mp3s I don't see any pressure on the music industry to change their format. If people stopped buying mp3s and complained I'm sure the industry would change their tune.

It's hard to believe that after all this writing on the wall that the music industry is still pretty much lagging behind the technology and trying to keep everything status quo.

[captainwrong]

If the vast majority of the listening public can't tell the difference between a well encoded mp3 and the uncompressed source, does it matter?

[michel1969]

[A Lark Ascending]

If the vast majority of the listening public can't tell the difference between a well encoded mp3 and the uncompressed source, does it matter?

I suspect most can't...I know I can't. I can tell a poor MP3 from a good one as I can tell a poor CD transfer from a good one. But as a rule I hear no difference - maybe if I had an expensive system I could. Mine, like most people's is quite modest. I can't see industry hanging onto CD for long just to please a small group of audiophiles. I can see someone somewhere licensing some recordings and making CDs as they now make vinyl for a small market or as they once made direct metal master discs to serve a small customer base for whom 'the best possible sound' mattered.

I think most people are happy with very good quality sound. Most of the downloads I've heard recently fall into that bracket. The maths and graphs may say that this or that is lost but that is of no consequence if you don't hear it.

[sidewinder]

Unless the industry is just waiting on us old farts to shut up and die.

Probably highly likely..

[A Lark Ascending]

The train travel analogy can go one step further. At one time train travel was luxurious, then it became more utilitarian, functional, stark. Much like the change from the LP, with its wonderful artwork, gatefolds, expansive liner notes, the quaint pleasure of two distinct sides to the music, which changed to the CD, with its microscopic notes and shrunken artwork.

But the reason train travel changed was because the competition - air and car - overtook it. CD overtook LP because, on balance, it had more advantages than disadvantages for most people. What was lost in artwork, the two sides was more than compensated to most listeners by its portability, flexibility, greater resiliance and, above all, lack of any form of surface noise.

The same will determine the future of CD/downloads - if the advantages outweigh the disadvantages the switch will be made. It didn't happen from CD to SACD because the promised outstanding sound quality was not significantly important to most listeners, quite content with the very good sound quality of CD.

I think downloading is offering a whole host of advantages that will ultimately see CD swept away. Which won't stop us looking back with longing at the things we will lose and won't stop some listeners continuing to hunt down CDs as they now hunt down used vinyl.

I'm sure there are people who still use typewriters in the developed world, prefering them over a word processor. But for the world at large the idea of buying a typewriter does not enter their thoughts. I think the same will happen with CD.

(Incidentally, I'm still locked enough in the old world to burn my downloads to disc and make a cover for them! The idea of playing them off a computer or a squeezebox doesn't calculate in my head yet (though I use an ipod!) I'm sure that makes me rather old fashioned).

Edited December 3, 2008 by Bev Stapleton

[sidewinder]

Some of us like surface noise

[A Lark Ascending]

Some of us like surface noise

Yes, I've worked that out! Beyond the covers and side lengths, I've no nostalgia for vinyl. All I recall was the heart in mouth moment of playing a new LP, waiting for the first clicks, the wow and flutter, the inner groove distortion etc. Probably not an issue for those with expensive turntables but it always bothered me greatly. I embraced CD with open arms. I know others don't have my sensitivity to those imperfections (as I don't have much sensitivity to variations in bit rate or whatever influences digital sound quality).

[sidewinder]

I think it works out as a tradeoff. For me the sonics of the LP usually work out best, although at the risk of the odd click and bump. It's definitely true that the higher-end turntable and cartridges compensate for vinyl imperfections (and I suspect lots of people have been put off for life by some of the kit that used to be on sale back in the day). Also that some pressings are much more tolerant of damage/imperfections than others. Can't argue that CDs win hands down on convenience, portability and ability to cram lots of music on one disk though. As has been mentioned a lot, both media have distinct major advantages and disadvantages.

I would agree with previous comments that compression in downloads can be a pain in the neck and very noticeable - although it is tolerable when listening on an I-Pod.

[Jazzmoose]

In much the same way as you can still buy film for cameras because people like my mum can't understand how you can take a picture any other way.

Bless your mother! I'm going to miss film a lot more than I'll miss CDs...

[Jazzjet]

If the vast majority of the listening public can't tell the difference between a well encoded mp3 and the uncompressed source, does it matter?

I suspect most can't...I know I can't. I can tell a poor MP3 from a good one as I can tell a poor CD transfer from a good one. But as a rule I hear no difference - maybe if I had an expensive system I could. Mine, like most people's is quite modest. I can't see industry hanging onto CD for long just to please a small group of audiophiles. I can see someone somewhere licensing some recordings and making CDs as they now make vinyl for a small market or as they once made direct metal master discs to serve a small customer base for whom 'the best possible sound' mattered.

I think most people are happy with very good quality sound. Most of the downloads I've heard recently fall into that bracket. The maths and graphs may say that this or that is lost but that is of no consequence if you don't hear it.

I believe its been shown that our ability to benefit from 'perfect sound' diminishes with age so its probable that our ability to notice the audio loss in mp3s is similarly compromised. Bit of a bugger that. As we get older and ( usually ) more able to afford higher quality audiophile equipment our hearing deteriorates so we can't properly experience the benefit.

[BruceH]

One would think that if it's not possible now, someone should be working on making d/l music the same quality as mfgrd cds. Unless the industry is just waiting on us old farts to shut up and die. I would be ok with d/l music if everyone could raise their bar a little and make it consistent across the boards. Most sights that offer d/l music are compressed mp3s. I'm never going to buy those. With all the ipods out there full of mp3s I don't see any pressure on the music industry to change their format. If people stopped buying mp3s and complained I'm sure the industry would change their tune.

I'll bet you're right.

OK, everybody! All together now---stop buying mp3s and start complaining!!!

[A Lark Ascending]

Some of the classical sites I mentioned are offering an option of what they call 'lossless' files. I don't really understand where 'loseless' fits in the grand spectrum of audiophilia but have seen this regularly mentioned in the classical magazines as 'near-CD quality' or even 'better than CD quality'.

Here are Gimmel's claims. They record mainly Renaissance church music. Their target audience will be at least as fussy as the most sound conscious jazz listener:

Our MP3 Downloads are encoded at 320kbps which is the highest quality permitted by the MP3 format (many download stores only offer files encoded at 128kbps), nevertheless some of the quality of the original CD will be missing. If you intend listening on a Hi-fi system then we strongly recommend that you try our CD Quality and Studio Master Downloads.

Gimell CD Quality Downloads offer identical quality to the original Compact Discs. Before you place an order please use our Test Files to check compatibility with your system.

Gimell Studio Master Downloads are 24-bit recordings and offer better audio quality than Compact Disc which is a 16-bit format. Before you place an order please use our Test Files to check compatibility with your system.

Gimell Studio Master Pro Downloads use an extra 150% of digital data compared to Compact Disc to more accurately reproduce the original sound. Before you place an order please use our Test Files to check compatibility with your system.

Gimell Studio Master 5.1 Downloads are lossless 24-bit recordings offering Surround Sound in the popular 5.1 loudspeaker configuration. Before you place an order please use our Test Files to check compatibility with your system.

Gimell Studio Master Pro 5.1 Downloads are lossless 24-bit recordings sampled at 96kHz and offer Surround Sound in the popular 5.1 loudspeaker configuration. Before you place an order please use our Test Files to check compatibility with your system.

These companies know their main market requires the security of a high quality sounding product and are responding. I don't suppose the big companies, for whom the classical/jazz wings have only ever been to do with prestige, will be going out of their way to aim higher.

But if the smaller companies want to make a going business then they will need to respond to the needs of their more 'sophisticated' customer base. The classical companies seem well ahead of the game in this regard. Though Artistshare (who seem to be showing the way in the jazz world) claim 'a downloadable CD-quality (320 kbps) recording of their collaboration' for the Hall/Frisell set (doesn't quite square with Gimmel's reservations on 320 kbps).

I've tried MP3 and lossless from Chandos. The only difference I've noticed is that losless cost more and take longer to download. Clearly the aged ears Jazzjet warned us about.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Bev Stapleton